Ode to Kurttrail...

L

Leythos

The three leading American experts all agree that Saddam destroyed his
WMDs by the mid-1990s.

What facts do you have to dispute these experts?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter artillery
round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," Brig. Gen. Mark
Kimmitt (search), the chief military spokesman in Iraq, told reporters
in Baghdad. "The round had been rigged as an IED (improvised explosive
device) which was discovered by a U.S. force convoy."

....

Two weeks ago, U.S. military units discovered mustard gas that was used
as part of an IED. Tests conducted by the Iraqi Survey Group (search) ?
a U.S. organization searching for weapons of mass destruction ? and
others concluded the mustard gas was "stored improperly," which made the
gas "ineffective."

They believe the mustard gas shell may have been one of 550 projectiles
for which former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein failed to account when
he made his weapons declaration shortly before Operation Iraqi Freedom
began last year. Iraq also failed to then account for 450 aerial bombs
with mustard gas. That, combined with the shells, totaled about 80 tons
of unaccounted for mustard gas.

It also appears some top Pentagon officials were surprised by the sarin
news; they thought the matter was classified, administration officials
told Fox News.

An official at the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection
Commission (UNMOVIC) headquarters in New York said the commission is
surprised to hear news of the mustard gas.

Oh, the most important part: Monday, May 17, 2004

********

Oh, and another news article that disputes most of what you say:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38213

Among Kay's revelations, which officials tell Insight have been
amplified in subsequent inspections in recent weeks:

* A prison laboratory complex that may have been used for human
testing of BW agents and "that Iraqi officials working to prepare the
U.N. inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the U.N." Why
was Saddam interested in testing biological-warfare agents on humans if
he didn't have a biological-weapons program?

* "Reference strains" of a wide variety of biological-weapons agents
were found beneath the sink in the home of a prominent Iraqi BW
scientist. "We thought it was a big deal," a senior administration
official said. "But it has been written off [by the press] as a sort of
'starter set.'"

* New research on BW-applicable agents, brucella and Congo-Crimean
hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin that were
not declared to the United Nations.

* A line of unmanned aerial vehicles, UAVs, or drones, "not fully
declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they
had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500 kilometers
[311 miles], 350 kilometers [217 miles] beyond the permissible limit."

* "Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant
useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles, a capability that was
maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi
scientists have said they were told to conceal from the U.N."

* "Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with
ranges up to at least 1,000 kilometers [621 miles] -- well beyond the
150-kilometer-range limit [93 miles] imposed by the U.N. Missiles of a
1,000-kilometer range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets
throughout the Middle East, including Ankara [Turkey], Cairo [Egypt] and
Abu Dhabi [United Arab Emirates]."

In addition, through interviews with Iraqi scientists, seized documents
and other evidence, the ISG learned the Iraqi government had made
"clandestine attempts between late 1999 and 2002 to obtain from North
Korea technology related to 1,300-kilometer-range [807 miles] ballistic
missiles -- probably the No Dong -- 300-kilometer-range [186 miles]
antiship cruise missiles and other prohibited military equipment," Kay
reported.

.....

What's really sad is how this information was spun by the media that
didn't want to be proven wrong:

Kay and Duelfer came to a similar conclusion, telling Congress under
oath that Saddam had built new facilities and stockpiled the materials
to relaunch production of chemical and biological weapons at a moment's
notice. At Karbala, U.S. troops stumbled upon 55-gallon drums of
pesticides at what appeared to be a very large "agricultural supply"
area, Hanson says. Some of the drums were stored in a "camouflaged
bunker complex" that was shown to reporters -- with unpleasant results.

"More than a dozen soldiers, a Knight-Ridder reporter, a CNN cameraman,
and two Iraqi POWs came down with symptoms consistent with exposure to a
nerve agent," Hanson says. "But later ISG tests resulted in a
proclamation of negative, end of story, nothing to see here, etc., and
the earlier findings and injuries dissolved into nonexistence. Left
unexplained is the small matter of the obvious pains taken to disguise
the cache of ostensibly legitimate pesticides. One wonders about the
advantage an agricultural-commodities business gains by securing drums
of pesticide in camouflaged bunkers 6 feet underground. The
'agricultural site' was also colocated with a military ammunition dump
-- evidently nothing more than a coincidence in the eyes of the ISG."

That wasn't the only significant find by coalition troops of probable CW
stockpiles, Hanson believes. Near the northern Iraqi town of Bai'ji,
where Saddam had built a chemical-weapons plant known to the United
States from nearly 12 years of inspections, elements of the 4th Infantry
Division found 55-gallon drums containing a substance identified through
mass spectrometry analysis as cyclosarin -- a nerve agent.

Nearby were surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles, gas masks
and a mobile laboratory that could have been used to mix chemicals at
the site.

"Of course, later tests by the experts revealed that these were only the
ubiquitous pesticides that everybody was turning up," Hanson says. "It
seems Iraqi soldiers were obsessed with keeping ammo dumps insect-free,
according to the reading of the evidence now enshrined by the
conventional wisdom that 'no WMD stockpiles have been discovered.'"
 
M

Michael Stevens

In
Leythos said:
And you keep trolling since you suggest things as facts without any
proof.

Please, when you don't have a viable answer stop calling your adversary a
troll. Not only does it send a message to anyone sitting on the fence and
unlikely and I really emphasize the unlikely notion that anyone thinks your
rhetoric is not truly full of $hit. You saying a post is not valid that any
of the current thread could be classified as a troll post just because you
can't rationalize or get support for your opinion except from your own
opinion is very embarrassing.
 
K

kurttrail

Leythos said:
The three leading American experts all agree that Saddam destroyed
his WMDs by the mid-1990s.

What facts do you have to dispute these experts?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

"The Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that a 155-millimeter
artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found," Brig.
Gen. Mark Kimmitt (search), the chief military spokesman in Iraq,
told reporters in Baghdad. "The round had been rigged as an IED
(improvised explosive device) which was discovered by a U.S. force
convoy."

...

Two weeks ago, U.S. military units discovered mustard gas that was
used as part of an IED. Tests conducted by the Iraqi Survey Group
(search) ? a U.S. organization searching for weapons of mass
destruction ? and others concluded the mustard gas was "stored
improperly," which made the gas "ineffective."

They believe the mustard gas shell may have been one of 550
projectiles for which former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein failed to
account when he made his weapons declaration shortly before Operation
Iraqi Freedom began last year. Iraq also failed to then account for
450 aerial bombs with mustard gas. That, combined with the shells,
totaled about 80 tons of unaccounted for mustard gas.

It also appears some top Pentagon officials were surprised by the
sarin news; they thought the matter was classified, administration
officials told Fox News.

An official at the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection
Commission (UNMOVIC) headquarters in New York said the commission is
surprised to hear news of the mustard gas.

Oh, the most important part: Monday, May 17, 2004

********

Oh, and another news article that disputes most of what you say:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38213

Among Kay's revelations, which officials tell Insight have been
amplified in subsequent inspections in recent weeks:

* A prison laboratory complex that may have been used for human
testing of BW agents and "that Iraqi officials working to prepare the
U.N. inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the U.N."
Why was Saddam interested in testing biological-warfare agents on
humans if he didn't have a biological-weapons program?

* "Reference strains" of a wide variety of biological-weapons
agents were found beneath the sink in the home of a prominent Iraqi BW
scientist. "We thought it was a big deal," a senior administration
official said. "But it has been written off [by the press] as a sort
of 'starter set.'"

* New research on BW-applicable agents, brucella and Congo-Crimean
hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin that
were not declared to the United Nations.

* A line of unmanned aerial vehicles, UAVs, or drones, "not fully
declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that
they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500
kilometers [311 miles], 350 kilometers [217 miles] beyond the
permissible limit."

* "Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant
useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles, a capability that
was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating
Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from the U.N."

* "Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with
ranges up to at least 1,000 kilometers [621 miles] -- well beyond the
150-kilometer-range limit [93 miles] imposed by the U.N. Missiles of a
1,000-kilometer range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets
throughout the Middle East, including Ankara [Turkey], Cairo [Egypt]
and Abu Dhabi [United Arab Emirates]."

In addition, through interviews with Iraqi scientists, seized
documents and other evidence, the ISG learned the Iraqi government
had made "clandestine attempts between late 1999 and 2002 to obtain
from North Korea technology related to 1,300-kilometer-range [807
miles] ballistic missiles -- probably the No Dong --
300-kilometer-range [186 miles] antiship cruise missiles and other
prohibited military equipment," Kay reported.

....

What's really sad is how this information was spun by the media that
didn't want to be proven wrong:

Kay and Duelfer came to a similar conclusion, telling Congress under
oath that Saddam had built new facilities and stockpiled the materials
to relaunch production of chemical and biological weapons at a
moment's notice. At Karbala, U.S. troops stumbled upon 55-gallon
drums of pesticides at what appeared to be a very large "agricultural
supply" area, Hanson says. Some of the drums were stored in a
"camouflaged bunker complex" that was shown to reporters -- with
unpleasant results.

"More than a dozen soldiers, a Knight-Ridder reporter, a CNN
cameraman, and two Iraqi POWs came down with symptoms consistent with
exposure to a nerve agent," Hanson says. "But later ISG tests
resulted in a proclamation of negative, end of story, nothing to see
here, etc., and the earlier findings and injuries dissolved into
nonexistence. Left unexplained is the small matter of the obvious
pains taken to disguise the cache of ostensibly legitimate
pesticides. One wonders about the advantage an
agricultural-commodities business gains by securing drums of
pesticide in camouflaged bunkers 6 feet underground. The
'agricultural site' was also colocated with a military ammunition
dump -- evidently nothing more than a coincidence in the eyes of the
ISG."

That wasn't the only significant find by coalition troops of probable
CW stockpiles, Hanson believes. Near the northern Iraqi town of
Bai'ji, where Saddam had built a chemical-weapons plant known to the
United States from nearly 12 years of inspections, elements of the
4th Infantry Division found 55-gallon drums containing a substance
identified through mass spectrometry analysis as cyclosarin -- a
nerve agent.

Nearby were surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles, gas masks
and a mobile laboratory that could have been used to mix chemicals at
the site.

"Of course, later tests by the experts revealed that these were only
the ubiquitous pesticides that everybody was turning up," Hanson
says. "It seems Iraqi soldiers were obsessed with keeping ammo dumps
insect-free, according to the reading of the evidence now enshrined
by the conventional wisdom that 'no WMD stockpiles have been
discovered.'"

Faux News! WorldNutDaily! See, I predicted your sources of
information! Pure nonsense. And contradictory nonsense at that!

Pesticides are only WMDs for insects! But you are just a bug, so I can
see why you are afraid of them.

--
Peace!
Kurt Kirsch
Self-anointed Moderator
http://microscum.com
"It'll soon shake your Windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'."
 
L

Leythos

Pesticides are only WMDs for insects! But you are just a bug, so I can
see why you are afraid of them.

I guess you didn't read it, and I would also guess you missed the fact
that many chemical weapons can be made from the exact pesticides that
were found in hundreds of drums next to ammo and covered by cammo?

There are reason's you have Drums of Pesticides hidden in ammo dumps and
next to chemical weapons labs, and it's not to keep the weapons safe
from spiders and fleas.

I love how you people discount all the "evidence" and believe all the
unproven hype.
 
G

George

kurttrail,

Please note I am not taking any side on this argument!!!

How come everything you and Alias say is FACT but everything everybody else
says isn't? also see inline comments below..

George

kurttrail said:
Fact: Saddam had destroyed his WMDs by the mid-1990's.
And you were there to see this happen? If you weren't there to witness this
happen then hoqw can it be fact?
This FACT is backed up by people on all spectrums of political beliefs.
From the liberal former U.S. Marine Corps Major Scott Ritter to the
centrist David Kay to the conservative Charles Duelfer!

These are three most knowledgeable Americans regarding Saddam's WMDs. But
you don't believe them. You believe the nonsense that they were
transferred to other countries by truck in the days leading up to the US
invasion, and the days immediately following the invasion.

FACT: Saddam wasn't trying to get yellow cake uranium out of Niger. And
the intelligence that suggested he was, was proven a forgery long before
Bush mentioned it in his State of the Union address in 2003!

How do you know this?
FACT: You wouldn't know a fact even if it was rammed sideways up your
arse, and spun around like a blender set to liquefy!

When did facts get so realistic that they could do this to his arse? :)
 
G

George

kurttrail said:
Do you really think Saddam would have killed as many innocent Iraqis as
have been killed during the US Invasion, and Occupation? If you do, then
you are truly delusional.
kurtrail, how many people did he gas and how many graves have they dug up
since being in Iraq? I think you should have thought about that reply
before opening foot and inserting!!! And no I do not agree with the
war....Bush for that matter!!!

Keep this thought in mind though, what other choice did America have for a
president when we were hit on 9/11? Al Gore??????? Can you just imagine
what would have happened if his scarey arse had been there....maybe he would
have shared his Internet if they would leave us alone?
 
F

Fat Kevin

kurttrail said:
Faux News! WorldNutDaily! See, I predicted your sources of
information! Pure nonsense. And contradictory nonsense at that!

Pesticides are only WMDs for insects! But you are just a bug, so I can
see why you are afraid of them.


Can we now move on to bomb Iran please so that the work is complete as
far as wiping out all extremists is concerned. We don't want to look
like them do we with unclean beards and western civilization unable to
afford electric shavers!! We should use small nutron bombs so that the
work can be finished cost effectively and we don't have to worry about
dead bodies everywhere. The job in Iraq wasn't done properly and so the
cost is mounting to support them!! They don't even have good women who can give a good b* job!!!
 
K

kurttrail

Leythos said:
I guess you didn't read it, and I would also guess you missed the fact
that many chemical weapons can be made from the exact pesticides that
were found in hundreds of drums next to ammo and covered by cammo?

And MacGuyver can make a bomb out of toilet paper!

Let's call toilet paper a weapon!
There are reason's you have Drums of Pesticides hidden in ammo dumps
and next to chemical weapons labs, and it's not to keep the weapons
safe from spiders and fleas.

Do you know how bad the sand fleas are in Iraq? I bet every US military
position has its own pesticide stockpile.
I love how you people discount all the "evidence" and believe all the
unproven hype.

Your sources of information are also the same ones that took the
Stinkboaters for Lies seriously.

Get real. Next you are gonna tell me that God's whispering in your ear
that there were WMDs in Iraq in 2003!

--
Peace!
Kurt Kirsch
Self-anointed Moderator
http://microscum.com
"It'll soon shake your Windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'."
 
K

kurttrail

Fat said:
Can we now move on to bomb Iran please so that the work is complete as
far as wiping out all extremists is concerned. We don't want to look
like them do we with unclean beards and western civilization unable to
afford electric shavers!! We should use small nutron bombs so that
the
work can be finished cost effectively and we don't have to worry about
dead bodies everywhere. The job in Iraq wasn't done properly and so
the
cost is mounting to support them!! They don't even have good women
who can give a good b* job!!!

And who is gonna get rid of the right-wing religious extremists in the
US? Who is gonna come after the US's WMDs?

Please! What would really get the peckerheads in the Middle East upset
is if we stopped buying their effin' oil! Kinda hard to develop WMDs if
you don't got the bucks!

--
Peace!
Kurt Kirsch
Self-anointed Moderator
http://microscum.com
"It'll soon shake your Windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'."
 
K

kurttrail

George said:
kurttrail,

Please note I am not taking any side on this argument!!!

How come everything you and Alias say is FACT but everything
everybody else says isn't? also see inline comments below..

Not everybody else. Just Leythos. And he is hardly anybody, let alone
everybody.
And you were there to see this happen? If you weren't there to
witness this happen then hoqw can it be fact?

Because the three most knowledgeable men on Iraqis WMDs said so. Two of
these three men were Bush appointees.
How do you know this?

The UN found out that the documents that tied Saddam to Niger yellow
cake were forgeries.

Do a google search. I'm sure you can enlighten yourself, if you want
to.
When did facts get so realistic that they could do this to his arse?
:)

Oh, didn't you know? I have the letters F A C T tattoo across my
knuckles! ;-)

--
Peace!
Kurt Kirsch
Self-anointed Moderator
http://microscum.com
"It'll soon shake your Windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'."
 
K

kurttrail

George said:
kurtrail, how many people did he gas and how many graves have they
dug up since being in Iraq?

Most of the people he gassed was back in the 1980s, when he was an ally
of the US, getting US funding, and being visited by the like of Donald
Rumsfeld.
I think you should have thought about
that reply before opening foot and inserting!!!

LOL! How many people did he kill in the 3 years prior to the War?

Now how many were killed by the US, and its allies since the begginning
of the War?

When you find out the answers to these two questions you'll see that
more than likely Saddam would not have killed even half as many as the
US actually did.
And no I do not
agree with the war....Bush for that matter!!!

Keep this thought in mind though, what other choice did America have
for a president when we were hit on 9/11? Al Gore??????? Can you
just imagine what would have happened if his scarey arse had been
there....maybe he would have shared his Internet if they would leave
us alone?

Al Gore actually went to Vietnam. Bush couldn't even show up for a
physical in Alabama.

And who could do worse than Bush? Osama is still laughing his ass off.

And as for 911, do you think Gore would have let his VP handle
everything while he had kids reading him "My Pet Goat?"

Sh*t had Gore been President, maybe 911 wouldn't have happened! As I
doubt he'd been on vaction as much as Bush and his partners in crime.

--
Peace!
Kurt Kirsch
Self-anointed Moderator
http://microscum.com
"It'll soon shake your Windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'."
 
L

Leythos

there were WMDs in Iraq in 2003!

I think, if you open your mind, you will actually be able to see what
the mainstream media doesn't want you to see.

Do you know how easy it is to hide what you are doing from the UN and
their inspection teams?

Did you read the detailed report from the inspectors or just what was
printed in the media?

Oh, lets not forget what is being reported by the media currently:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49221

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49187

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48827
 
K

kurttrail

Leythos said:
I think, if you open your mind, you will actually be able to see what
the mainstream media doesn't want you to see.

That which was not there! Oh I'm sure there were some stray shell left
unexploded in the dessert, that have been rendered inert over time, but
was that a valid pretext for Invasion. I think not.

And if we are gonna invade every third world country on the basis that
they have pesticides, just give me a list of countries we won't be
invading!
Do you know how easy it is to hide what you are doing from the UN and
their inspection teams?

No. Do you? No.
Did you read the detailed report from the inspectors or just what was
printed in the media?

I read both. It showed that sanctions and inspection worked. That it
was totally unnecessary to invade Iraq on the pretext of WMDs. It
showed that Saddam didn't want his enemies to know that he didn't have
his WMD stockpile, as he didn't want to appear weak in the eyes of his
enemies.


WorldNutDaily! This is not a credible source! This is mass delusion
brought to you by total idiots. If you believe them, you might as well
believe that the Earth is flat, and Scientology is the only truth!
WorldNutDaily! My God, you are insane!

--
Peace!
Kurt Kirsch
Self-anointed Moderator
http://microscum.com
"It'll soon shake your Windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'."
 
L

Leythos

I read both. It showed that sanctions and inspection worked. That it
was totally unnecessary to invade Iraq on the pretext of WMDs. It
showed that Saddam didn't want his enemies to know that he didn't have
his WMD stockpile, as he didn't want to appear weak in the eyes of his
enemies.

I've read it too, and many of the reports since we went back, and I
don't see where Sanctions worked at all. I don't see how allowing
Germany, Russia, China, and several others provide arms to Iraq was any
sign of the Sanctions working.

I guess I'll have to settle for you just being you, while I'm going to
continue to believe the facts that I've been able to see/find.
 
K

kurttrail

Leythos said:
I've read it too, and many of the reports since we went back, and I
don't see where Sanctions worked at all. I don't see how allowing
Germany, Russia, China, and several others provide arms to Iraq was
any sign of the Sanctions working.

Depends if it the arms were prohibited. Under the terms of the original
Gulf War, Saddam was allowed to have certain types of weapons.

What wasn't allowed were WMDs, and there is no evidence that Saddam had
any stockpile or on-going development of WMDs since the mid-1990s.
Unless you believe the crack-pot media, like WorldNutDaily!
I guess I'll have to settle for you just being you, while I'm going to
continue to believe the facts that I've been able to see/find.

Facts?! From WorldNutDaily?! The two are mutually exclusive!

It just shows you for the real nutcase you really are!

--
Peace!
Kurt Kirsch
Self-anointed Moderator
http://microscum.com
"It'll soon shake your Windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'."
 
K

kurttrail

kurttrail said:
Facts?! From WorldNutDaily?! The two are mutually exclusive!

It just shows you for the real nutcase you really are!

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49676

This is the top breaking story on WorldNutDaily right now, just in case
anyone is under any delusion that WND is real journalism, not a totally
biased rag.

--
Peace!
Kurt Kirsch
Self-anointed Moderator
http://microscum.com
"It'll soon shake your Windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'."
 
R

RA

WorldNutDaily! This is not a credible source! This is mass delusion
brought to you by total idiots. If you believe them, you might as
well believe that the Earth is flat, and Scientology is the only
truth! WorldNutDaily! My God, you are insane!

Are you trying to tell me that I shouldn't be looking to Pat Boone for my in
depth, insightful, complete and accurate coverage of world events? Can I
still trust medical advice from Tom Cruise?
 
K

kurttrail

RA said:
Are you trying to tell me that I shouldn't be looking to Pat Boone
for my in depth, insightful, complete and accurate coverage of world
events?

You shouldn't even look to Pat Boone for musical advise.
Can I still trust medical advice from Tom Cruise?

Only if you are male and you have postpartum depression!

--
Peace!
Kurt Kirsch
Self-anointed Moderator
http://microscum.com
"It'll soon shake your Windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'."
 

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