O.T. Backup suggestions

[Nil]

I have no experience of DVD+/-RW, but I remember people were very
dubious about the longevity of CD-RW; are DVD-/+RW better? (For
something like an image backup, I imagine you want reliability.)

In my experience, no, far from it. Rewritable DVDs are very delicate
and temperamental and can go bad with the slightest scratch, and often
with no visible damage at all. They're OK for temporary storage, but
it's best to transfer anything you want to keep to DVD ROM or other
media ASAP.

 

[Mark Twain]

Hello Nil,

I plan to do so asap.
DVD-ROM not DVD-RW?

Robert

 

[Mark Twain]

I plan to buy new disks asap
which should I get?(see below).

Robert

 

[Paul]

Hello Nil,

I plan to do so asap.
DVD-ROM not DVD-RW?

Robert

I bought discs today. This is what I got.
Maxell DVD+RW 15 pack (no jewel cases). $13.
And I got mine down town and they were $13 there
as well. No need to bother with Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Maxell-Rewritable-DVD-RW-15-Pack/dp/B0009KA6P0

Don't buy Memorex (I have an axe to grind with them).
Some stores, more than half their products are Memorex.

Verbatim is also good. At least, I haven't had
a bad batch from them.

You can buy larger quantities, but if you buy a
spindle, those are usually the write-once kind.

The write-once kind are faster, and support burning
at faster speeds. The DVD+RW are re-usable and
run at 4X when burning. Being a cheap-skate,
I like the idea of erasing them over and over again

*******

To hold the DVDs, I usually pick up jewel cases.
I used to get these at a local department store,
but the department store went out of business. So
I had to go with another brand today. These aren't
particularly high quality (watch for warped ones, or
broken hinges). I like to pick through the product,
until I find one that looks decent.

http://www.dynexproducts.com/products/computer-accessories/DX-CD30C.html

At this store, I can find them for around $0.30
per unit. This one is 50 jewel cases for $15.00.
But today, being a cheap-skate, I only picked
up 10 for $3. This particular one wasn't on the
shelf. Otherwise, I might have been tempted.

http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=42_540_542&item_id=069667

Paul

 

[Mark Twain]

I'll buy DVD-RW's and make sure they're Maxell
or Verbatim. Then create a Recovery boot CD.

I'll start another post about the sound.

I want to thank you for all your time, patience
and good help.

Thanks again,
Robert

 

[Paul]

I like that idea too, but I am just too afraid of some potential
"reliability issues" with these DVD-RW discs, and I've so stuck to using
DVD-R (or DVD+R), which can only be written once. (And between those two, I
found DVD-R to be less problematic across different systems, which kinda
makes sense, since it's the older standard).

I had read some horror stories about various incompatibility issues between
different systems trying to read (or write) those R/W discs, but guess you
haven't had any such issues.

Also, I'd bet the media is a bit more reliable for the standard (write-once)
discs over time (either DVD-R or DVD+R). But even with those discs, there
can be problems, as I once had a Memorex DVD from several years ago go bad -
and you could even see the DVD color change (from time) on the DVD in this
one case. My solution was to upgrade to Verbatim discs, since they seem to
have the highest reliability (longevity), from all I've read. No more
Memorex discs for me, either.

I had more trouble with CDRW in the past, than I'm having now with DVDRW materials.
I don't know chemically, what the difference is. Whether it's different
dyes or what it is. They're just a bit slow (when you're waiting for
a burn to finish).

I used System Image in Win8.1 U1 a few hours ago, and it took forever
to image 26GB of files. The staff at Microsoft made it as painful as
possible, requiring me to "format" each blank disk to UDF 2.01, by
double-clicking the blank in file explorer and selecting the "live file
system" option. That's so when you tell the backup to continue, it won't
barf if the media is not formatted. The System Image included no audio prompts,
so you can't even be in another room, listing for a "beep or boop" to tell
you to insert more media. Many commercial packages will automate
these steps, and include audio prompts so you can go cook dinner knowing
you'll be informed promptly when it's time for more media.

The Microsoft code, when it does the "media verify" step, appears
to continue running the media at 1X or 2X, and doesn't "let her rip"
like commercial programs. Most of those tell the drive to go to max
read speed (typically higher than the 4X write speed), so the verify
finishes in a few minutes. Not the Microsoft code. Set to maximum pain.

It took only four DVDs (3*4.4GB+2.9GB) to hold the 26GB of files, so
some compression must be in use there. Now I have to transfer
those back to a hard drive, for analysis. Have to dig up a
"rip lock free" config for that.

Paul

 

[Paul]

In retrospect, I'm trying to recall if the horror stories I read were only
for the CDRW, but I'm having a senior moment. But I still think it's true
that the read/write discs aren't as reliable due to the technologies and
dyes used. In fact, aren't the most reliable ones the professional metallic
ones (not dye) that corporations use to sell their commercial media?

But I have a question for you. Why are you imaging or backing up to DVDs
instead of an external hard drive or flash drive? I've given up on backing
up to DVDs. And I'm not even sure that the user type (dye based)
optical media (CDs and DVDs) have greater longetivity than hard drives or
flash drives at this point - plus their limited disc space and long read and
write times are not too endearing.

Someone reported they updated to Win8.1 U1 and the System Image function
to DVD was broken. I was giving it a try, to verify, and it is throwing
errors. Normally, I would not image to DVDs. I do it to a separate
hard drive. But I gave the DVD idea a try anyway, and it was pure torture
Brings back memories of using floppies.

It turns out the verify was likely running at max speed. It's probably
running CAV, and the read speed would vary from 4X to about 12X, for my
4X media. The motor runs at a constant speed. I watched while using
IMGBURN to image the discs - that one has a speed indicator, so you
have some idea what it is doing.

I'm still trying to figure out what is in the recorded files...

As for the DVDs, I've never tortured the RW ones to the point of
failure, so I don't know exactly how many cycles these ones will
do. With the CDRW ones, if they were marginal to begin with,
it didn't take too many cycles to kill them (anywhere from 3 to 6).

Paul

 

[Mark Twain]

I didn't realize that DVD's were so fragile
and unstable.Especially the pinwheel stacks.


I'm only doing this for the Recovery boot CD.
If I can put that on the external HD then I
would rather do that. Does it give me the option
though?

Robert

 

[Paul]

I didn't realize that DVD's were so fragile
and unstable.Especially the pinwheel stacks.


I'm only doing this for the Recovery boot CD.
If I can put that on the external HD then I
would rather do that. Does it give me the option
though?

Robert

If you expect to boot the computer, in an emergency,
with a recovery CD, then you burn a CD with the
information needed to do that.

I don't burn CDs and DVDs here for fun. If some
software (like Macrium, Windows7, or Windows8) has
an emergency CD, I do burn those. And they're sitting
in a stack of jewel boxes, waiting for the next
"emergency" that comes up.

The modern DVDs are stable enough. Don't sit them
on a window sill, and then be surprised that the
sunlight ate them. Use common sense, and keep them in
a cool dry place, the same way you would preserve
any other plastic from our modern plastic society.

*******

You know, I can't even get decent poly drop clothes
any more. At one time, some of those could take
sunlight for a year or so. Now, if I buy one, the
sun rots them in three months or so. Plastics
can be made more durable, if they put their minds
to it.

If you keep your media in a cool, dark, dry place,
it's bound to last longer.

Paul

 

[Hot-Text]

|
| Someone reported they updated to Win8.1 U1 and the System Image function
| to DVD was broken. I was giving it a try, to verify, and it is throwing
| errors. Normally, I would not image to DVDs. I do it to a separate
| hard drive. But I gave the DVD idea a try anyway, and it was pure torture

| Brings back memories of using floppies.
|
| It turns out the verify was likely running at max speed. It's probably
| running CAV, and the read speed would vary from 4X to about 12X, for my
| 4X media. The motor runs at a constant speed. I watched while using
| IMGBURN to image the discs - that one has a speed indicator, so you
| have some idea what it is doing.

Paul always write discs
At the low as you can go
Not just image, But all files

From CD-R to DVD-RW's
BURN at a low speed
To have a Error Free BURN's



| I'm still trying to figure out what is in the recorded files...
| As for the DVDs, I've never tortured the RW ones to the point of
| failure, so I don't know exactly how many cycles these ones will
| do. With the CDRW ones, if they were marginal to begin with,
| it didn't take too many cycles to kill them (anywhere from 3 to 6).

 

[Mark Twain]

Ohhhhhh, I didn't know that, does (DVD-RW) give me the
option of recording at slower speeds?

Thanks,
Robert

 

[Mark Twain]

If you keep your media in a cool, dark, dry place,

it's bound to last longer.



Paul

Always,....

Thanks,
Robert

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Paul wrote: []

I used System Image in Win8.1 U1 a few hours ago, and it took forever
to image 26GB of files. The staff at Microsoft made it as painful as

[]
But I have a question for you. Why are you imaging or backing up to DVDs
instead of an external hard drive or flash drive? I've given up on backing

And _my_ question would be, does your OS plus software come to 26 GB, or
does that include some data?
[]

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>, Paul <[email protected]>
writes:
[]

As for the DVDs, I've never tortured the RW ones to the point of
failure, so I don't know exactly how many cycles these ones will
do. With the CDRW ones, if they were marginal to begin with,
it didn't take too many cycles to kill them (anywhere from 3 to 6).

Paul

Isn't it more that they _go_ off, in time, rather than a certain number
of R/W cycles? The write-once ones you're actually burning something -
making a permanent change (hence the term "burning"); the R/W ones the
process has to be something that _can_ be reversed, so can happen
spontaneously, especially if exposed to sunlight and similar.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>, Paul <[email protected]>
writes:
[]

You know, I can't even get decent poly drop clothes
any more. At one time, some of those could take
sunlight for a year or so. Now, if I buy one, the
sun rots them in three months or so. Plastics
can be made more durable, if they put their minds
to it.

[]
OT: I have a pale yellow, very loose weave, nylon shirt, which was my
father's - it will be over 50 years old; one of these days I intend to
give it to a museum, as it must be one of the first of its kind. It's
still OK (I very rarely wear it, as it _is_ such a loose weave; I think
he bought it in south America).

 

[Paul]

Ohhhhhh, I didn't know that, does (DVD-RW) give me the
option of recording at slower speeds?

Thanks,
Robert

Rewritable media already has a max speed which is quite slow.

Your DVD-RW or DVD+RW will run at 4X, so you don't need to
slow it down.

Some brands run even slow than that, and I've had such products
here. Just terrible, in terms of burn time. When I visited my
"good" computer store, to pick up a pack, there was mostly 4X
for the rewritable stuff. No junk that I could see. They had
some Bluray media, but that's too expensive for me.

I have DVD burners here that claim to be able to run at 22x or 24x,
but I've never seen any media that comes even close to those
speeds. Anything that fast, would be write-once media. And
yes, when you have high speed media like that, you frequently
need to adjust things, for best results. I would not expect
a 22x burn to work the first time, and I would expect to make
coasters for a while, until I figured it out. Your 4X media
on the other hand, should be good on the first try, and
without changing settings.

Paul

 

[Paul]

As for the DVDs, I've never tortured the RW ones to the point of
failure, so I don't know exactly how many cycles these ones will
do. With the CDRW ones, if they were marginal to begin with,
it didn't take too many cycles to kill them (anywhere from 3 to 6).

Paul

Isn't it more that they _go_ off, in time, rather than a certain number
of R/W cycles? The write-once ones you're actually burning something -
making a permanent change (hence the term "burning"); the R/W ones the
process has to be something that _can_ be reversed, so can happen
spontaneously, especially if exposed to sunlight and similar.[/QUOTE]

Yes, they were degrading with time. And I didn't have the
opportunity to do more burns to them, because they had all
expired.

I have one left here, and that one, there is a patch where
there appears to be no dye layer, and I can see the label on
the other side. Most of the disc might be intact, but the size and
shape of the bad patch means there is no way the burner is going
to eat that. The error correction is designed for radial scratches,
not for a giant blotch on one part of the circumference

Paul

 

[Paul]

Paul wrote: []

I used System Image in Win8.1 U1 a few hours ago, and it took forever
to image 26GB of files. The staff at Microsoft made it as painful as

[]
But I have a question for you. Why are you imaging or backing up to DVDs
instead of an external hard drive or flash drive? I've given up on
backing

And _my_ question would be, does your OS plus software come to 26 GB, or
does that include some data?
[]

There's a bit of user data on there.

Most of the really big files, sit on a separate drive,
and as I boot from OS to OS, that partition is used for
sharing stuff between them. The OS partition is
relatively free of clutter. Maybe a couple program
installers sitting in a download folder.

And the 26GB number, is after running Disk Cleanup
and removing Windows.old.

Paul

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

As for the DVDs, I've never tortured the RW ones to the point of
failure, so I don't know exactly how many cycles these ones will
do. With the CDRW ones, if they were marginal to begin with,
it didn't take too many cycles to kill them (anywhere from 3 to 6).

Paul

Isn't it more that they _go_ off, in time, rather than a certain
number of R/W cycles? The write-once ones you're actually burning
something - making a permanent change (hence the term "burning"); the
R/W ones the process has to be something that _can_ be reversed, so
can happen spontaneously, especially if exposed to sunlight and similar.[/QUOTE]

Yes, they were degrading with time. And I didn't have the
opportunity to do more burns to them, because they had all
expired.

I have one left here, and that one, there is a patch where
there appears to be no dye layer, and I can see the label on
the other side. Most of the disc might be intact, but the size and
shape of the bad patch means there is no way the burner is going
to eat that. The error correction is designed for radial scratches,
not for a giant blotch on one part of the circumference

Paul[/QUOTE]

My (very basic) understanding is/was that the "erasing" process sort of
melts something, which maybe can move around a little when melted - so
perhaps repeated erasure might restore it. Whether it's worth it is a
different matter!

 

[Paul]

In message <[email protected]>, Paul <[email protected]>
writes:
[]
As for the DVDs, I've never tortured the RW ones to the point of
failure, so I don't know exactly how many cycles these ones will
do. With the CDRW ones, if they were marginal to begin with,
it didn't take too many cycles to kill them (anywhere from 3 to 6).

Paul
Isn't it more that they _go_ off, in time, rather than a certain
number of R/W cycles? The write-once ones you're actually burning
something - making a permanent change (hence the term "burning");
the R/W ones the process has to be something that _can_ be reversed,
so can happen spontaneously, especially if exposed to sunlight and
similar.

Yes, they were degrading with time. And I didn't have the
opportunity to do more burns to them, because they had all
expired.

I have one left here, and that one, there is a patch where
there appears to be no dye layer, and I can see the label on
the other side. Most of the disc might be intact, but the size and
shape of the bad patch means there is no way the burner is going
to eat that. The error correction is designed for radial scratches,
not for a giant blotch on one part of the circumference

Paul

My (very basic) understanding is/was that the "erasing" process sort of
melts something, which maybe can move around a little when melted - so
perhaps repeated erasure might restore it. Whether it's worth it is a
different matter!

There is a section of the Memorex CD that has *no* dye in it.
In that section, it's just polycarbonate disc, with label on top.
Nothing to melt or erase. It's gone. The head assembly won't be
able to track, because the wobble will be gone. (The disc has
a spiral pattern, with wobble modulation to help the head
tracking system stay on the spiral shaped path.) The optical drive
will appear to be "hung" while it's fed such a perilous disc.

Paul