MS Vista! The new Windows ME for MAC users!


J

Jimmy Mac

I'm really disappointed MS.

To Turn a great tool into a mere appliance.

The loss of tools, features, stability, customization, SPEED, user friendliness, logical design, compatibility and the lack support for CURRENT DAY hardware makes Windows Vista a very poor choice for the MS Windows literate power users. I've been using MS since DOS 3.11 and have used every flavor of Windows. Until Vista, I really thought that MS could do no worse than WinME. Well, I stand corrected.

Business owners, Vista is a great choice IF you want to cut your employees productivity and drastically increase your IT overhead.

Why would anyone want go back to the time when your IT staff spent 90% of their time explaining "You can't do it that way" or want to replace most of your perhipials because there's no support for those vital drivers you need?

MS, I can understand the need for a secure OS but clearly there are better ways than to mimic a MAC! This User Accounts Control? What a PAIN! And if we turn it off, we still can't change our HOSTS file (YES, sometimes this IS necessary) without logging in as THE local admin? And let's not even talk about the Acrobat Reader v8 issues!

I had to program a router the other day and decided to use my Vista system to connect to the serial port and launch Hyper Terminal. Whha?? WTF? It's GONE? Hmmm.. MS Doesn't want their OS to be used by techs in the field for performing simple tasks like programming a PLC? a Phone Switch? an Internet Security appliance? a freaking ROUTER?

Some of us even use your MS VPN's and used to rely on being able to EASILY determine whether we're connected by simply looking on the task bar to see the little iconS with the blinking monitors that let us know we are connected! Heck! we could even simply right click on the icon and disconnect from that VPN. Not that simple anymore No SIR!

Oh hell.. Windows Explorer? if you want the full path in the address bar, FORGET IT. View Details in EVERY FOLDER? Uhuh. Customize file & folders? (remember the Command Prompt here? GONE)

Here's another nail in the coffin for Vista.... It is more difficult to even turn off your computer anymore! In the past, sure you had to click the start button before you had the option to SHUT DOWN, but now you have to not only click the start button but is you hit what you think is the power button, you merely put your computer to sleep? Hello!! Some of us are in an areas where we want to conserve energy at night and on weekends! Oh.. and on that note, when the power goes off... D'oh!

Ahh... the newly designed Start menu! I just LOVE NOT being able to customize my "All Program" view! How the hell do we move the folders to the top of the list?

Damnit MS, we don't want a "New Visual Experience" on our business machines, we want practical and usable tools that improove performance, not kill it!!

Anyway, enough of my ranting, but I have no choice to stand up in the next budget meeting to inform the owners that if they want us to migrate to Vista, we're looking at upgrading brand new hardware to the tune of better than $3000 per employee and that we will have to spend 2 hours out of every 8 just to retrain everyone how to find what they are going to lose.

In a nutshell, for the corporate environment, Vista is a very poor choice. I think we're going take another look ad Linux.

Oh the joy!

Jim..
 
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L

Lakesidezx

You can still get the full address bar in windows explorer, but unfortunately it requires two extra clicks to see it. Click the down arrow next to the breadcrumb address bar twice and the full path to the folder your viewing will be shown in the address bar instead of the breadcrumbs. Not an elegant solution but usefull for me sometimes.

You can set what the main turnoff/sleep button is set to do. My computer wakes up from sleep as soon as it goes to sleep so it's now set to just shut off the computer from the main sleep/shutdown button on the start menu.

The new start menu is horrendous in my opinion. I know many people really like it, but for me to have everything in there on one flat plane makes things tough to find visually, especially more so when I have more start menu folders, and putting folders inside of folders only really visually complicates matters. Overall, sure it looks "cool" but it's visually more difficult to operate than XP's start menu all programs.

Thankfully for us we only had to ditch a couple printers that didnt have complete software to run them under vista, and could only be used with limited functionality and the mfg's said that they would not be creating new drivers for these printers so we had to buy new printers to gain back full functionality of them, total extra cost for us was about $1600.00 $200/station


I'm really disappointed MS.

To Turn a great tool into a mere appliance.

The loss of tools, features, stability, customization, SPEED, user friendliness, logical design, compatibility and the lack support for CURRENT DAY hardware makes Windows Vista a very poor choice for the MS Windows literate power users. I've been using MS since DOS 3.11 and have used every flavor of Windows. Until Vista, I really thought that MS could do no worse than WinME. Well, I stand corrected.

Business owners, Vista is a great choice IF you want to cut your employees productivity and drastically increase your IT overhead.

Why would anyone want go back to the time when your IT staff spent 90% of their time explaining "You can't do it that way" or want to replace most of your perhipials because there's no support for those vital drivers you need?

MS, I can understand the need for a secure OS but clearly there are better ways than to mimic a MAC! This User Accounts Control? What a PAIN! And if we turn it off, we still can't change our HOSTS file (YES, sometimes this IS necessary) without logging in as THE local admin? And let's not even talk about the Acrobat Reader v8 issues!

I had to program a router the other day and decided to use my Vista system to connect to the serial port and launch Hyper Terminal. Whha?? WTF? It's GONE? Hmmm.. MS Doesn't want their OS to be used by techs in the field for performing simple tasks like programming a PLC? a Phone Switch? an Internet Security appliance? a freaking ROUTER?

Some of us even use your MS VPN's and used to rely on being able to EASILY determine whether we're connected by simply looking on the task bar to see the little iconS with the blinking monitors that let us know we are connected! Heck! we could even simply right click on the icon and disconnect from that VPN. Not that simple anymore No SIR!

Oh hell.. Windows Explorer? if you want the full path in the address bar, FORGET IT. View Details in EVERY FOLDER? Uhuh. Customize file & folders? (remember the Command Prompt here? GONE)

Here's another nail in the coffin for Vista.... It is more difficult to even turn off your computer anymore! In the past, sure you had to click the start button before you had the option to SHUT DOWN, but now you have to not only click the start button but is you hit what you think is the power button, you merely put your computer to sleep? Hello!! Some of us are in an areas where we want to conserve energy at night and on weekends! Oh.. and on that note, when the power goes off... D'oh!

Ahh... the newly designed Start menu! I just LOVE NOT being able to customize my "All Program" view! How the hell do we move the folders to the top of the list?

Damnit MS, we don't want a "New Visual Experience" on our business machines, we want practical and usable tools that improove performance, not kill it!!

Anyway, enough of my ranting, but I have no choice to stand up in the next budget meeting to inform the owners that if they want us to migrate to Vista, we're looking at upgrading brand new hardware to the tune of better than $3000 per employee and that we will have to spend 2 hours out of every 8 just to retrain everyone how to find what they are going to lose.

In a nutshell, for the corporate environment, Vista is a very poor choice. I think we're going take another look ad Linux.

Oh the joy!

Jim..
 
R

Ronnie Vernon MVP

Most of the things that you mentioned are easily configurable if you know
where to look. It sounds like you just need to RTFM?

There is a slight learning curve, even for a power user. Linux is a choice,
if you want a very steep learning curve and a period of 0% productivity.
Suck it up and take the time to learn the new system.

--

Ronnie Vernon
Microsoft MVP
Windows Shell/User


I'm really disappointed MS.

To Turn a great tool into a mere appliance.

The loss of tools, features, stability, customization, SPEED, user
friendliness, logical design, compatibility and the lack support for CURRENT
DAY hardware makes Windows Vista a very poor choice for the MS Windows
literate power users. I've been using MS since DOS 3.11 and have used every
flavor of Windows. Until Vista, I really thought that MS could do no worse
than WinME. Well, I stand corrected.

Business owners, Vista is a great choice IF you want to cut your employees
productivity and drastically increase your IT overhead.

Why would anyone want go back to the time when your IT staff spent 90% of
their time explaining "You can't do it that way" or want to replace most of
your perhipials because there's no support for those vital drivers you need?

MS, I can understand the need for a secure OS but clearly there are better
ways than to mimic a MAC! This User Accounts Control? What a PAIN! And if we
turn it off, we still can't change our HOSTS file (YES, sometimes this IS
necessary) without logging in as THE local admin? And let's not even talk
about the Acrobat Reader v8 issues!

I had to program a router the other day and decided to use my Vista system
to connect to the serial port and launch Hyper Terminal. Whha?? WTF? It's
GONE? Hmmm.. MS Doesn't want their OS to be used by techs in the field for
performing simple tasks like programming a PLC? a Phone Switch? an Internet
Security appliance? a freaking ROUTER?

Some of us even use your MS VPN's and used to rely on being able to EASILY
determine whether we're connected by simply looking on the task bar to see
the little iconS with the blinking monitors that let us know we are
connected! Heck! we could even simply right click on the icon and disconnect
from that VPN. Not that simple anymore No SIR!

Oh hell.. Windows Explorer? if you want the full path in the address bar,
FORGET IT. View Details in EVERY FOLDER? Uhuh. Customize file & folders?
(remember the Command Prompt here? GONE)

Here's another nail in the coffin for Vista.... It is more difficult to even
turn off your computer anymore! In the past, sure you had to click the start
button before you had the option to SHUT DOWN, but now you have to not only
click the start button but is you hit what you think is the power button,
you merely put your computer to sleep? Hello!! Some of us are in an areas
where we want to conserve energy at night and on weekends! Oh.. and on that
note, when the power goes off... D'oh!

Ahh... the newly designed Start menu! I just LOVE NOT being able to
customize my "All Program" view! How the hell do we move the folders to the
top of the list?

Damnit MS, we don't want a "New Visual Experience" on our business machines,
we want practical and usable tools that improove performance, not kill it!!

Anyway, enough of my ranting, but I have no choice to stand up in the next
budget meeting to inform the owners that if they want us to migrate to
Vista, we're looking at upgrading brand new hardware to the tune of better
than $3000 per employee and that we will have to spend 2 hours out of every
8 just to retrain everyone how to find what they are going to lose.

In a nutshell, for the corporate environment, Vista is a very poor choice. I
think we're going take another look ad Linux.

Oh the joy!

Jim..
 
A

Alexander Suhovey

You can still get the full address bar in windows explorer, but
unfortunately it requires two extra clicks to see it.

It takes me exactly ONE click on the free space in Windows Explorer address
bar to switch to classic full path view. And BTW it is already selected so
you can Ctrl+C right away.
 
E

Eric

For the corporate environment, you should be using client-server with users on a domain running WinXP Pro.
Vista, as far as I can tell, is designed more for the home user. I believe there is a business version, are you running that? I don't know if that is the version you're talking about or if that one is just as bad for business, but I'd stick with XP Pro at least for now.
I'm really disappointed MS.

To Turn a great tool into a mere appliance.

The loss of tools, features, stability, customization, SPEED, user friendliness, logical design, compatibility and the lack support for CURRENT DAY hardware makes Windows Vista a very poor choice for the MS Windows literate power users. I've been using MS since DOS 3.11 and have used every flavor of Windows. Until Vista, I really thought that MS could do no worse than WinME. Well, I stand corrected.

Business owners, Vista is a great choice IF you want to cut your employees productivity and drastically increase your IT overhead.

Why would anyone want go back to the time when your IT staff spent 90% of their time explaining "You can't do it that way" or want to replace most of your perhipials because there's no support for those vital drivers you need?

MS, I can understand the need for a secure OS but clearly there are better ways than to mimic a MAC! This User Accounts Control? What a PAIN! And if we turn it off, we still can't change our HOSTS file (YES, sometimes this IS necessary) without logging in as THE local admin? And let's not even talk about the Acrobat Reader v8 issues!

I had to program a router the other day and decided to use my Vista system to connect to the serial port and launch Hyper Terminal. Whha?? WTF? It's GONE? Hmmm.. MS Doesn't want their OS to be used by techs in the field for performing simple tasks like programming a PLC? a Phone Switch? an Internet Security appliance? a freaking ROUTER?

Some of us even use your MS VPN's and used to rely on being able to EASILY determine whether we're connected by simply looking on the task bar to see the little iconS with the blinking monitors that let us know we are connected! Heck! we could even simply right click on the icon and disconnect from that VPN. Not that simple anymore No SIR!

Oh hell.. Windows Explorer? if you want the full path in the address bar, FORGET IT. View Details in EVERY FOLDER? Uhuh. Customize file & folders? (remember the Command Prompt here? GONE)

Here's another nail in the coffin for Vista.... It is more difficult to even turn off your computer anymore! In the past, sure you had to click the start button before you had the option to SHUT DOWN, but now you have to not only click the start button but is you hit what you think is the power button, you merely put your computer to sleep? Hello!! Some of us are in an areas where we want to conserve energy at night and on weekends! Oh.. and on that note, when the power goes off... D'oh!

Ahh... the newly designed Start menu! I just LOVE NOT being able to customize my "All Program" view! How the hell do we move the folders to the top of the list?

Damnit MS, we don't want a "New Visual Experience" on our business machines, we want practical and usable tools that improove performance, not kill it!!

Anyway, enough of my ranting, but I have no choice to stand up in the next budget meeting to inform the owners that if they want us to migrate to Vista, we're looking at upgrading brand new hardware to the tune of better than $3000 per employee and that we will have to spend 2 hours out of every 8 just to retrain everyone how to find what they are going to lose.

In a nutshell, for the corporate environment, Vista is a very poor choice. I think we're going take another look ad Linux.

Oh the joy!

Jim..
 
N

n00k

to get the full path, just shift+right click the file you want the
path for, and there it is!!! Works like a charm. Same goes for open
command window here.
 
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D

Dustin Harper

Ok. I was trying to keep my composure, but you seem to have said exactly
what I was aiming for...

RTFM. :) If you think you're a power user and can jump in and do everything
right off the bat, you're incorrect. Even the best net admins have to read a
book, play with the software, etc. It's not a plug and play solution. And
Linux is FAR from that as well.

Vista does have it's issues, but the minor ones that are being described are
just MINOR annoyances that can be configured to your liking. A stock XP
install has a thousand things I do to it before it's to my liking. So does
Vista. Power Users like to play and customize and tweak the hell out of it.
Not use it as stock...

--
Dustin Harper
(e-mail address removed)
http://www.vistarip.com

--
 
J

Jimmy Mac

Ok.. The tickle worked - This type of answer was exactly what I was looking
for. RTFM. Tell me this if you can.

When this major change in an OS is deployed to a few hundred production
users with VERY varied levels of OS comprehension, do you expect management
to insist they RTFM or do you expect management to want them to do their job
and bring in the bacon? I would expect the latter.

What I see, is when decide to roll out Vista, the freaking IT phone is going
to be ringing off the hook! And I'm not talking about the serious stuff. I
can see users calling just because they can't figure out how to do what you
and I deem "simple tasks"

IMHO, MS has lost that touch. User friendliness. Does anyone here really
think the average user will take the time to RTFM?
Do you really think companies will want to accept the loss of productivity
when their employees say "I don't know how to do that anymore"?

Just consider the cost of re-educating the end user and pile that on top of
the huge cost in new hardware for a mid scale deployment.
It's just not economical!
 
N

n00k

Usually, the end user will educate themselves. When I first got a
computer, I didn't know anything! I had to call someone to figure out
how to do anything, and I mean ANYTHING! Now, I build my own
computers, troubleshoot them for friends and family. I am now lead
marketing material designer for a craft company that is carried
nationwide in several markets, and I only graduated high school, all
because I educated myself. I think that people, for the most part
enjoy learning something new. I know that Vista is going to piss me
off big time from time to time, but so did Win95, Win 98, I don't
even need to mention Me, so did WinXP. And as far as people who argue
that the Mac OS is leaps and bounds over anything MS has ever done, I
call them on that as well. I have been working with Macs since 1993,
and I have grown to completly hate them, they have a few features that
are kind of nifty, but I am just more comfortable with MS. I would be
willing to bet that most, not all, but MOST of the people who are
bitching about Vista right now, will begin to really like it as they
learn it's quarks. I may eat my words, won't be the first time, but I
really like Vista! But then again, I haven't really had any problems
so far either. But I know I will and I accept that and will deal with
them as they rear their ugly bits. Here's a bit of trivia to confuse a
Machead, ask him how do I tile the windows vertically without actually
dragging the corners or using Exposé, there isn't an answer for it.
:0)
 
S

Scott

I'm really disappointed MS.

To Turn a great tool into a mere appliance.
[ugly text snipped]

Can you say "word wrap"? I knew you could.
--
Scott http://angrykeyboarder.com

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
NOTICE: In-Newsgroup (and therefore off-topic) comments on my sig will
be cheerfully ignored, so don't waste our time.
 
S

Scott

Ok. I was trying to keep my composure, but you seem to have said exactly
what I was aiming for...

Same here. :)
RTFM. :) If you think you're a power user and can jump in and do everything
right off the bat, you're incorrect. Even the best net admins have to read a
book, play with the software, etc. It's not a plug and play solution. And
Linux is FAR from that as well.

I've not read a book yet (although I've bought a new Vista ones) and
I' figured it out. All you have to do is poke around a bit.

--
Scott http://angrykeyboarder.com

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
NOTICE: In-Newsgroup (and therefore off-topic) comments on my sig will
be cheerfully ignored, so don't waste our time.
 
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S

Scott

Usually, the end user will educate themselves. When I first got a
computer, I didn't know anything! I had to call someone to figure out
how to do anything, and I mean ANYTHING!

When I first got one, I just poked around a bit, found forums such as
this and read a few "dummies" books. Ever since then, most of what
I've learned is self-taugt.

Honestly in the case of Windows (XP and Vista in particular) the Help
and Support section is excellent, especially since it also utilizes
Microsoft's excellent online Knowledge Base.

I have this addiction to computer books, but the fact of the matter
is, most of what I've learned is just from poking around in the OS
itself.

I don't get why more people don't do that. It doen't require a high
IQ or extra geekiness.

I've given out tons of advice to friends and co-workers, but honestly
it's pretty basic stuff. I really don't know as much as people seem to
think I do.

I've learned a lot about Vista the same way, just poking around. And
the more I do so, the more I like it.

I thought the re-vamped Windows Explorer in Vista was rather odd and
awkward at first but once I learned my way around, I've found it's
honestly the best file manager I've ever used (in Windows or Linux.).
It's very fast and efficient.

I don't miss the "tree" at all (FYI, it's not completely gone, , you
just have to look for it - if you still want it).
--
Scott http://angrykeyboarder.com

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
NOTICE: In-Newsgroup (and therefore off-topic) comments on my sig will
be cheerfully ignored, so don't waste our time.
 
A

Alexander Suhovey

Jimmy Mac said:
When this major change in an OS is deployed to a few hundred production
users with VERY varied levels of OS comprehension, do you expect
management to insist they RTFM or do you expect management to want them to
do their job and bring in the bacon? I would expect the latter.

Good IT departments plan user awareness and education programs as part of
any significant deployment/upgrade.
 
G

Guest

Funny,

I too have been using Microsoft as my OS of choice since the early days of
DOS also, this has not stopped me using and exploring alternatives. Too
often when a 'tech' complains about the usability of a product and why it
should not be used it is generally because they lack the general
understanding to use the system themselves. True many older devices (yes and
some newer ones) will need to be replaced, however this has been the case
with every major update of Windows to date.

To suggest that this is something new shows the sheer lack of understanding
of how the OS works on the basic level. Almost all the complaints you had
are minor changes that can be made very easily.

As for business, yes some minor retraining of employee's may be needed
however most people seem to be adapting to the differences between XP and
Vista very quickly. I am very sure that the small loss of potential earnings
is not too higher price to pay for having a far more secure system. Less
chance of stolen data, less chance of catastrophic operator errors, less
chance of hacking, the list goes on. Seems like a very small investment for
a company to make to greatly improve its security and long term productivity.

If Vista is too hard for you to properly adapt to I fail to see how you
believe that you would be able to easily adapt to using and deploying Linux.
If a 'tech' or system admin cannot adapt and deploy Vista without any serious
problems or the need to retrain their companies employee's then perhaps it is
time they admitted that they themselves are the real problem, perhaps some
simple retraining - or even just spending a couple of days exploring where
everything is and how it all works in Vista.

I have deployed Vista in a small company with only 5 PC's shared among 50+
employee's and they adapted very quickly from XP to Vista. They are not
exactly computer literate workers either, but Tow Truck drivers and even they
are on the whole very impressed with the change to Vista (possibley the new
graphics may have something to do with this, but they are also far less
frequently needing to call on my services to correct simple system problems)
 
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B

bp

I've found it's
honestly the best file manager I've ever used (in Windows or Linux.).
It's very fast and efficient.

I can't tell since mine goes "not responding" after the system has
been on for moore than 10 minutes and can take anywhere from 30
seconds to several minutes to finally respond.
 
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