MS Update Caused Total Crash

[A Baffled User]

Running Vista 32 Home Premium, 3 GB RAM. For months now, I've been trying
unsuccessfully to install the MS updates that show up on my computer. The
first near disaster was SP 2, which began an endless loop of Stage 1, 2, 3
with percentage meters followed by a restart of the whole process.

To bypass that problem, I performed a system restore and have been trying,
with only occasional success, to install subsequent MS updates. I.e., I
choose one update on the list of any given day, install it, and wait to see
what happens. If restart is successful, great. More often than not, it's
unsuccessful and I have to use system restore to get the computer
functioning properly again.

So last night I tried to install the first of four updates dated November 11
(I had been away for two weeks). When the endless loop action described
above began, I did what I usually do: tapped the F11 key in hopes of
getting, as I've always been able to before, to the system restore screen.
Either I made a mistake and clicked system recovery when I meant to click
system restore or else system restore wasn't even offered as an option. In
any case, I suddenly found myself looking at a screen that was starting a
system recovery operation. I.e., all my data would be lost.

I immediately turned off the computer and tried to go to safe mode. No dice.
Got a black screen saying something about the boot and that Windows hadn't
started normally, I should insert a Windows installation disk. I tried
inserting one of the three DVDs I had been told by the computer to create in
case of emergency, but that did no good, either.

Now, when I turn on the computer and click F8, I get the message "BOOTMGR is
missing, Press Ctrl + Alt + Del to restart. When I do, I get the same
message. I've called Hewlett Packard, which manufactured the computer, and
they say my only choice now is to perform a system recovery. So two
questions:

1. Is there any way to get my data off the hard drive before I perform the
system recovery?
2. Can I buy Windows XP and put it on this machine?

Many thanks for any wise advice that may be forthcoming.

Joan

 

[Malke]

Running Vista 32 Home Premium, 3 GB RAM. For months now, I've been trying
unsuccessfully to install the MS updates that show up on my computer. The
first near disaster was SP 2, which began an endless loop of Stage 1, 2, 3
with percentage meters followed by a restart of the whole process.

You must mean SP1. SP2 is still in beta. I'm going to assume you really
meant SP1. If you installed a beta Service Pack, then having problems with
it is no surprise. Thou Shalt Not Install Beta Software on anything but a
testbed machine or on one you are prepared to wipe and clean install.

To bypass that problem, I performed a system restore and have been trying,
with only occasional success, to install subsequent MS updates. I.e., I
choose one update on the list of any given day, install it, and wait to
see
what happens. If restart is successful, great. More often than not, it's
unsuccessful and I have to use system restore to get the computer
functioning properly again.

So last night I tried to install the first of four updates dated November
11 (I had been away for two weeks). When the endless loop action described
above began, I did what I usually do: tapped the F11 key in hopes of
getting, as I've always been able to before, to the system restore screen.
Either I made a mistake and clicked system recovery when I meant to click
system restore or else system restore wasn't even offered as an option. In
any case, I suddenly found myself looking at a screen that was starting a
system recovery operation. I.e., all my data would be lost.

I immediately turned off the computer and tried to go to safe mode. No
dice. Got a black screen saying something about the boot and that Windows
hadn't started normally, I should insert a Windows installation disk. I
tried inserting one of the three DVDs I had been told by the computer to
create in case of emergency, but that did no good, either.

Now, when I turn on the computer and click F8, I get the message "BOOTMGR
is missing, Press Ctrl + Alt + Del to restart. When I do, I get the same
message. I've called Hewlett Packard, which manufactured the computer, and
they say my only choice now is to perform a system recovery. So two
questions:

1. Is there any way to get my data off the hard drive before I perform the
system recovery?
2. Can I buy Windows XP and put it on this machine?

1. Pull the hard drive and put it in an external USB enclosure. Attach it to
a working computer and copy your data onto the working machine's hard
drive. You can also use a drive-to-USB adapter.

2. Restore your computer to factory condition using HP's method. Do the
updates before you install anything else but *after* you remove the HP
preinstalled garbage, including whatever antivirus trial version they
include. If you still can't update an optimized factory-restored machine,
then contact HP tech support because something is wrong with your computer.
I've updated numerous HP machines to Vista SP1 and subsequent updates with
no problems.

I'm not convinced that replacing Vista with XP will help, but here is some
general information about doing that:

On an OEM (HP, Sony, etc.) computer:

1. Go to the OEM's website and look for XP drivers for your specific model
computer. If there are no XP drivers, then you can't install XP. End of
story. If there are drivers, download them and store on a CD-R or USB
thumbdrive; you'll need them after you install XP.

2. Check with the OEM - either from their tech support website or by calling
them - to see if you will void your warranty if you do this. If you will
void the warranty, you make the decision.

3. If the OEM does support XP on the machine, call them and see if you can
have downgrade rights and have them send you an XP restore disk. This will
be far the easiest and best way of getting XP on the machine. With HP
machines, this is really preferable to doing a standard clean install with
a retail XP install disk.

http://michaelstevenstech.com/cleanxpinstall.html - Clean Install How-To
http://www.elephantboycomputers.com/page2.html#Reinstalling_Windows - What
you will need on-hand

4. If XP is supported on the machine but the OEM doesn't have an XP restore
disk for you, understand that you'll need to purchase a retail copy of XP
from your favorite online or brick/mortar store.

5. Also understand that you will need to do a clean install of XP so if you
have any data you want, back it up first.

6. If none of the above is applicable to you because you can't run XP on
that machine (see Item #1 above), return the computer and purchase one
running XP instead.

Malke

 

[A Baffled User]

Right you are, I meant SP 1--I was thinking of the SP on my XP machine.

Thank you *very* much for all this excellent information. I understand
everything you've told me about putting XP on my machine, and I'll look up
"external USB enclosure" and "drive-to-USB adapter"; that sounds like the
easier method.

Very much appreciate your help,
Joan

 

[Chad Harris]

Hi--

All is not lost. Unfortunately when you get tech support from HP you're
getting far less than someone making 6 figures at HP Research if they even
work for HP.

From what you wrote, you must not have the Vista DVD, but I'll include what
you should do. If you can borrow one, you can rebuild the boot manager
easily but you should be able to reach the command prompt to type the 4
simple commands I'm going to give you by simply restarting the pc and
tapping F8 once per second until you reach the F8 menu or what MST callse
the Windows Advanced Options Menu. From there you can arrow down and hit
enter on the menu entry "Safe Mode with Command Prompt."

A description of the Safe Mode Boot options in Windows XP/and Vista
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315222/


or if you can borrow a Vista DVD, you can access a command prompt by
inserting it from which you can type the commands below and rebuild the boot
manager.

Put in the Vista DVD and select cmd prompt from the menu that shows up.
Then type one after the other these switches. You'll get a successful after
each one runs.

How to use the Bootrec.exe tool in the Windows Recovery Environment to
troubleshoot and repair startup issues in Windows Vista

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927392

bootrec /Rebuild BCD
bootrec /fixmbr
bootrec /scanos
bootrec /Fixboot

Another option, but I'd try the above one first--it should work, is to
borrow a Vista DVD from someone and use Startup Repair (directiona are
below):

How to Use Startup Repair: (Any of the links provide screen shots)
http://www.windowsvista.windowsreinstall.com/vistaultimate/repairstartup/index.htm

http://www.vistaclues.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/click-repair-your-computer.png

Good luck,

CH

________________

 

[Sackboy]

Not to but in to your excellent reply...but bootrec /scanos never finds
anything.
I have XP, Vista, and Debian...and upon removal of a linux os, that command
has never returned the 2 Win installations.
It always returns none found.

 

[A Baffled User]

Dear Chad,

My computer did not come with a Vista DVD, but I did make the three DVDs
that I was reminded multiple times by the computer to make. Would those
disks not contain Vista? I forget what they're called, but they're disks
you're supposed to make just in case you ever have a problem. Well, I'm
having one.

Thanks!!

Joan

 

[A Baffled User]

When I restart the computer and tap F8 repeatedly, all I get is the black
screen that says, "BOOTMGR is missing, Press Ctrl + Alt + Del to restart."

Joan

 

[Chad Harris]

That may be the case, but even when it does that, I have been able to
recover Vista and get it back intact using the other 3. I also had a
situation where the hard drive was failing (in the evolution of failing),
and I ran the boot rec commands and after running the other 3 got Vista back
up and running immediately even though a Ctrl+Alt+D on the Dell indicated
the hard drive was not going to come back (including after trying bumping it
against a soft surface and putting it in a freezer after ziplocking it for a
while (2 obviously hale Mary passes for a HD).

Vista ran for 8 months after using the bootrec.exe commands. So despite the
apparent non-value of the scan/OS switch I find the other 3 command
valuable.

CH

 

[Chad Harris]

I'm sorry the F8 menu isn't available, Joan. Those recovery discs that HP
provided are called Recovery Discs and they are supposed to get your OS back
to factory default (the way it was in the beginng before you installed
programs or conferred settings on the OS. The problem with many of them is
despite the noble purpose touted for them by the OEM companies many posters
here, in reality they just don't work often.

They contain code, but not the entire code of an OS like Vista. They never
will because MSFT wants to sell Vista, and the OEM companies don't want to
buy Vista for you when you buy a computer. This is a pure profit loss
calculation.

But to be fair to the OEMs, nowadays with PCs discounted to as much as
$400-700 for some kind of duo core box, I can understand why they aren't
going to pay MSFT even a wholesale price for Vista.

This has been a problem for years. I always advise everyone to buy a full
OS (Vista or XP) whichever the case, because their recovery options are so
much better. If you have a Vista DVD you can run Startup Repair or the
bootrec options.

You can't do this with the manufacture'rs CDs. Dell has said they would
ship a full Vista DVD with each computer. I have no idea if they are
keeping this promise they made on their Direct2Dell blog.

If you can buy or borrow a Vista DVD (the real one made by MSFT), that's the
way you'll get your OS fixed. You don't need a product key by the way to
use these two repair methods either Startup Repair or the 3 bootrec.exe
commands besides the /scanos switch that will fix Vista a high percent of
times.

Good luck,

CH
_____________

 

[Sackboy]

That may be the case, but even when it does that, I have been able to
recover Vista and get it back intact using the other 3. I also had a
situation where the hard drive was failing (in the evolution of failing),
and I ran the boot rec commands and after running the other 3 got Vista
back up and running immediately even though a Ctrl+Alt+D on the Dell
indicated the hard drive was not going to come back (including after
trying bumping it against a soft surface and putting it in a freezer after
ziplocking it for a while (2 obviously hale Mary passes for a HD).

Vista ran for 8 months after using the bootrec.exe commands. So despite
the apparent non-value of the scan/OS switch I find the other 3 command
valuable.

Would be curious to see if any user gets a positive result for /scanos.
I run fixboot , and fixmbr.
That works for removing grub.
/scanos does nothing.

 

[A Baffled User]

Thanks, Chad. I've looked on my manufacturer, HP's Web site, and they say
that they provide drivers only for Vista 64 and Vista 32 for my computer, a
Pavilion a6250t (highly recommended by Consumer Reports). I've submitted an
e-mail technical support request just to be sure. My computer cost over
$2,000, BTW. It was not an off-the-rack model.

I didn't want Vista to begin with. Begged them to sell me a computer with
XP, but they refused. This was last December 27 or 28.

In any event, my stepdaughter's coming for Thanksgiving, and she has a Dell
laptop with Vista. Maybe she's got a disk. I'll check.

Many thanks,
Joan

 

[Chad Harris]

I need to research and will given a day or two some MSFT web lit on scan
/os. But what I wanted to be clear on is that I was able to use the other 3
commands in the mskb and associated with the bootrec tool when

1) I couldn't boot to Vista on somene's box including mine

I know the objective is to repair the BCD store but it has been working for
me.


2) There was no hardware problem or a hardware problem concommitant with a
software problem which is the case in my experience a little more than
people on forums and groups seem to recognize can happen. People here in
general are very good about emphasizing something important and that is to
make sure to try your best to elminate hardware problems that cause blue
screens (because often the BSOD stop message can apply to a wide range of
causes and they aren't always pinpoint specific).
3) Vista's Startup Repair tool tried repeatedly would not work. I know that
it scans for OS's itself when it is run and usually always finds them unless
there is the problem that it can't, but that seems to be different than the
/scanos switch.
4) I have not needed to use the first commands that are described in this
MSKB to be successful in getting Vista back to booting and working--and what
I mean is:

How to Use the Bootrec Tool in the Win RE Enviromnet
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927392

Error message when you start Windows Vista: "The Windows Boot Configuration
Data file is missing required information"
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/927391

Windows Vista no longer starts, and Startup Repair does not fix problem
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/934540

960279) - Fixmbr" should be "Bootrec.exe /FixMbr" Page 985: "select" should
be "deselect" Page 1009: Incorrect information regarding Security Log
auditing; Page 1065: "11xx" should be "437"
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/960279

I have not had to use these and been able to recover the OS the several
times that Startup Repair failed:

bcdedit /export C:\BCD_Backup
c:
cd boot
attrib bcd -s -h -r
ren c:\boot\bcd bcd.old


I'd be the first to admit that's hardly statstically impressive. It's not
anything like a multicenter trial of a drug or a clinical proceedure
subjected to chi square analysis and a whole host of statistical verifying
tools not to mention enough
incidences in a series to make it valid in addition to double blinding.

When you run scan/OS are there in fact vista installations that the boot
manager does not list--which seems to be the requirement for Scan/OS per the
KB?

From the above KB:

"ScanOs
The /ScanOs option scans all disks for installations that are compatible
with Windows Vista. Additionally, this option displays the entries that are
currently not in the BCD store. Use this option when there are Windows Vista
installations that the Boot Manager menu does not list."

Thanks,

CH

 

[A Baffled User]

Now I've received a message from an HP tech specialist saying that although
HP does not provide drivers that would allow my computer to run on XP, he's
done a lot of research into the question and can provide me with links to
audio, chipset, graphics, modem, and LAN drivers that should work. Do you
think I should trust him? I don't want to spend good money for a
free-standing copy of XP if it's not going to work on my machine.

Joan

 

[John Barnes]

At this point, you don't even know if you have anything of value left on the
machine. Often the first steps on the restore disk is to delete and
reformat the partition. If this happened before you got it shut down, at
best all your indexes are wiped and you would require a program to try to
read any files directly. I would find a program on the internet you can run
from a CD or thumb drive and see if you have any indexed files left on the
drive. Malkes suggestion would be fine if you want to have an external
setup for backup in the future but will cost you some money. As to trusting
that you can find the drivers for XP, if you buy a retail version of
Microsoft products in North America you can get a refund within, I believe
it is now 45 day, so it's up to you if you want to go that route. Good
luck.