Legality of installing XP bundled with one computer on another computer

[Alias]

There is no distinction really.. the generic OEM XP CD in its cute cardboard
packaging exists such that a 'mom and pop' computer store can supply a
'recovery' CD that enables their custom builds to be 'brought back to
factory' as it were, in accordance with pre-installed software being sold as
part of the package.. very few organisations of this type will be able to
afford or have the need to own equipment that allows 30 HDD's to be imaged
all at one time, so the individual generic OEM CD is a godsend..

The fact that these CDs are put on sale by such stores, computer fairs etc
as a cheap way for a user to get XP on an existing system is most likely a
breach of the OEM agreement, especially if the customer is not made aware of
the OEM limitation at the point of sale.. I believe that it states on the
packaging that it should be sold with hardware.. "here, buy it with this $5
mouse.. that's hardware"..

Not where I live. You would be hard pressed to find a retail version in
any store. I have only seen upgrades and only Home upgrades. I haven't
found one single store that sells retail professional or home. Why is
that? I am sure that MS Spain is aware of what's going on. A Home
Upgrade goes for 365 US Dollars at the largest department store in
Spain. OEM Home goes for 97 US Dollars. You don't have to be a CPA to
figure out that for the price of one retail upgrade, you can get three
OEMs with 74 US Dollars change. Nobody sells OEMs with hardware.


nobody can convince me that sellers of the

generic OEM CDs don't know exactly what they are doing.. again, we come to
the morality issue..

How many times have you seen the suggestion in these newsgroups to buy an
OEM generic because it is cheaper..

Not "cheaper", MUCH cheaper.

and how many times do you see any follow

up pointing out why OEM is cheaper?.. some do it, and some don't..
personally, I always recommend that people buy the full version, and I
explain why they should do that..

Would you recommend retail with the above price structure?

Alias

 

[Alias]

A computer is a package of parts within a case.. what defines the individual
computer is the motherboard..

Not in my EULA. Motherboard is not mentioned once.

Alias

 

[Alias]

<snip>
Bit rough, saying the motherboard at $250 defines the $2000 PC ?
(Isn't it about time MS got serious and scrapped OEM CDs ?)

It's not true. Look at your EULA and see if you see the word
"motherboard". You won't. BTW, motherboards can be gotten for 25 bucks.

Alias

 

[Alias]

Kerry Brown wrote:

I am one of the few

people who posts here who thinks activation is a good thing. I sell many
more copies of Windows and Office because of it so it has greatly helped my
bottom line.

IOW, you make money ripping people off.

Activation is a tool to fight piracy.

Not true. The pirates just crack away and laugh. Activation only
inconveniences the paying customer.

Alias

 

[Alias]

Tested in court is NOT the issue. A software author, no matter how large
or small, may write conditions on using/distributing/copying his/her/its
software. No software author actully "sells" the software to you, you
only acquire a "right" to use it.

In other words, the software author is the Landlord and you're the
renter. The Landlord controls the "property".

Yet no store in the world sells licences. All of them advertise it as
selling you software. Go to any computer store web site and try to find
a place to click on that says "licences". Not there. Now, try and find a
place to click that says "software". Ever hear of "bait and switch"? To
top it off, you only get to agree or disagree with the EULA when it's
too late to get your money back if you disagree. Ever hear of "scam"?

Alias

 

[Ian]

I see that Alias has a habit of being extremely rude on here. Try this one
Alias...crawl under the small rock you came from and never grace us with
your presence again!

 

[Alias]

I see that Alias has a habit of being extremely rude on here.

My, my, a few ad hominems and NO response to content. What, exactly, do
you disagree with that I posted in this message?

Try this one
Alias...crawl under the small rock you came from and never grace us with
your presence again!

No. It's not my fault that you go round deleting things from your
computer and *then* asking on the groups if what you did was all right.

Alias

 

[Mike Hall \(MS-MVP\)]

Little

The problem of getting XP to work does not exist if the motherboard is
replaced by the same model.. it happens when the user chooses to replace the
motherboard with another type, more often than not an upgrade to what was
originally installed..

No way can an original PIII 550mhz board be the SAME computer as one's new
P4 3.4ghz, despite retaining the HDD, CD, FDD, mouse and screen..

I have noticed that the morality issue is always side stepped.. if we all
did whatever we wanted, regardless of the wishes of others, and with no
thought for anybody else just because we can, where would that leave
society?.. are we so low that unless threatened with the death penalty, it
is perfectly acceptable to have an adverse effect on whoever we like just
because we can?..


--
Mike Hall
MVP - Windows Shell/User

The MB is NOT the defining factor of the computer, a MB can go bad and be
replaced with the exact same or upgraded. It is a part of parts, all parts
must be replaced for it to be a new computer.

As an OEM builder do you think I should throw away the Product Key I put
on
the customers computer because of a faulty MB in the duration of the
warranty
I give them? No that would be crazy I would loose money each time that
happened. I replace the MB and ship it back and heck the OS won't even
know
there is a new board, only if a full HD wipe is required will they need to
re-enter the Product Key and there they use the same one on the side of
the
case as before.

If OEM builders can change out the MB because it went bad, the customers
can
change out the MB as well.

As long as you are using a single Product Key on one computer, and you
dont'
give out the product key and you don't completely change out every single
aspect of the computer then the key is still valid to that user.

 

[Alias]

Little

The problem of getting XP to work does not exist if the motherboard is
replaced by the same model.. it happens when the user chooses to replace the
motherboard with another type, more often than not an upgrade to what was
originally installed..

Nowhere in the EULA does the word "motherboard" appear.

No way can an original PIII 550mhz board be the SAME computer as one's new
P4 3.4ghz, despite retaining the HDD, CD, FDD, mouse and screen..

Sounds like an updated computer to me.

I have noticed that the morality issue is always side stepped.. if we all
did whatever we wanted, regardless of the wishes of others, and with no
thought for anybody else just because we can, where would that leave
society?.. are we so low that unless threatened with the death penalty, it
is perfectly acceptable to have an adverse effect on whoever we like just
because we can?..

Considering that the EULA says nothing about a motherboard, your point
is moot.

Alias

 

[Mike Hall \(MS-MVP\)]

Alias

You and I both know that the motherboard is essentially 'the computer'.. you
and others choose to twist wording in an attempt to insulate yourselves from
the morality issue, and no doubt in your own minds consider this to be
smart.. it is unfortunate that the general lack of morality shown on this
issue, and maybe others, also insulates you from seeing the adverse effect
that you may have on others around you..

 

[Kerry Brown]

Kerry Brown wrote:

I am one of the few

IOW, you make money ripping people off.

Please tell me how selling them Windows and Office on a new pc is ripping
them off. Previous to activation most customers didn't buy Office and some
didn't buy an OS. When I asked they said they were going to use a friend's
copy. In most cases they knew this was somehow wrong but were prepared to
set aside their ethics for monetary gain. If they were installing software
from an old pc taken out of service this would be one thing but most of them
were clearly running multiple copies.

Not true. The pirates just crack away and laugh. Activation only
inconveniences the paying customer.

It has almost stopped the type of casual piracy I list above. It has also
reduced the number of shops preloading hard drives with unlicensed software.

Kerry

 

[Kerry Brown]

parties. Only the courts can decide if it is a legally binding
agreement. It is up to the wronged party to sue the other party. If
someone installs Windows on more than one computer or a second
computer when the first is taken out of service then Microsoft is
the wronged party so it is up to them to sue. If a legitimate use of
XP results in being denied activation then the user is the wronged
party and they should sue. In the thread under

It's not a big enough issue to sue or take to small claims court.
Suppose I bought the latest XP2 for $89 and want to put in on 2 pcs.
And I drive a van delivering autoparts for ten bucks/hour. I'd have
to take half a day off to file the case at the county courthouse,
then a day [or more] to appear in court. I'd be out 12 hours of work,
or $120.

Yes, I've had such a job before and no, it wouldn't be worth the cost
and hassle.

Good point, probably one of the reasons it's never been tested in court.

Kerry

 

[Kerry Brown]

Yes of course I agree that any "contract" or "agreement" can be tested
in court. And yes one can state whatever you want when you sell
software.

As an example, when you go park your car at a pay lot or in a hotel's
parking deck, the ticket you get *always* says "We are not responsible
for any damage to your car while it is in our lot". Which is untrue.
You are paying for a safe parking spot. If any damage happens the
business you paid to park at is responsible for covering. The "ticket"
you get with the "not responsible" part is only there to minimize
claims.

Yes, the parking thing has been tested in court, and the lot has been
proven to be responsible. But, they *can* still print whatever they
want on the ticket even if it's been proven in court to be a
non-binding agreement. Heck, you dont get the ticket or
"agreement" until you pay first anyway Just like MS

So, since the MS Legality issue has NOT been tested in court yet, I
would think its responsible to respect the software Author's wishes.
Yes, MS being a jillion dollar company may cloud the view, but would
you say the same if using a small $10 shareware util program written
by some lad in Ireland?

I have already said earlier in the thread that I abide by Microsoft's
licenses and encourage others to do so. I also purchase shareware that I try
and decide to keep using. I have written shareware software myself. What I
am objecting to is when people confuse an agreement that hasn't been tested
in court with a legally binding document.

Kerry

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Jensen?=]

Rene

Not wishing to be rude but what part of "....only to be sold with a new
Fujitsu Siemens PC" do you not understand

I don't wish to be rude either, but what part of my original mail did
you not understand? The software WAS bought with a new FSC PC.

BR,
René

 

[Alias]

Please tell me how selling them Windows and Office on a new pc is ripping
them off.

By recommending retail versions, of course.

Previous to activation most customers didn't buy Office and some
didn't buy an OS. When I asked they said they were going to use a friend's
copy. In most cases they knew this was somehow wrong but were prepared to
set aside their ethics for monetary gain. If they were installing software
from an old pc taken out of service this would be one thing but most of them
were clearly running multiple copies.




It has almost stopped the type of casual piracy I list above.

Um, no it hasn't. I went to a client the other day and told them they
should update to XP. The wife called up her "contact" and had a pirated
copy in a matter of minutes. Her contact was a friend who charged her
nothing. She also had Office XP, Photoshop and I don't know what else on
her computer that were pirated copies.

Now, here's a fact for you:

Before the activation scam and the WGA scam, MS had none of these
"protections" and has become one of the richest corporations in the
world, headed up by the richest man in the world.

Again, activation only inconveniences paying customers and even leads
paying customers to buy another copy of XP that they don't need.

It has also
reduced the number of shops preloading hard drives with unlicensed software.

Kerry

This may be true but I don't think there was a significant amount of
shops doing this.

Alias

 

[Alias]

Alias

You and I both know that the motherboard is essentially 'the computer'.. you
and others choose to twist wording in an attempt to insulate yourselves from
the morality issue, and no doubt in your own minds consider this to be
smart.. it is unfortunate that the general lack of morality shown on this
issue, and maybe others, also insulates you from seeing the adverse effect
that you may have on others around you..

I don't agree. If all you have is a motherboard, you don't have a
computer. Without a power supply, you can't even fire it up. Period. The
computer is the sum total of all the components, not one part. Nowhere
in the EULA does it mention the word "motherboard". On MS' official page
for consumers, it clearly states that upgrading a computer is acceptable
and that would include the motherboard, especially with your definition.
Morality has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Alias

 

[Mike Hall \(MS-MVP\)]

Rene

Exactly so.. it was acquired as part of the FSC package, and clearly states
that it is only to be sold with an FSC.. does that not suggest to you that
it should not be used on another computer?.. assuming you understand the
wording on the CD, why then ask if you can use it on another computer?..

 

[Kerry Brown]

By recommending retail versions, of course.

You assume you know how I run my business. I tell my customers how the
different versions work and let them pick which one they want to purchase.
Less than 1% pick the retail version. In the last two years I have only had
one customer say they wanted to pay more and purchase the retail version
over the OEM version. I have sold a few retail upgrades to business' who
were told by Dell sales reps that they would have no problems with XP Home
in a business. Even though an OEM version would have been cheaper to buy
they also factored in the cost of rebuilding the systems and at my
recommendation went with retail. Do make assumptions.

Um, no it hasn't. I went to a client the other day and told them they
should update to XP. The wife called up her "contact" and had a
pirated copy in a matter of minutes. Her contact was a friend who
charged her nothing. She also had Office XP, Photoshop and I don't
know what else on her computer that were pirated copies.

Now, here's a fact for you:

Before the activation scam and the WGA scam, MS had none of these
"protections" and has become one of the richest corporations in the
world, headed up by the richest man in the world.

Again, activation only inconveniences paying customers and even leads
paying customers to buy another copy of XP that they don't need.

I can only speak from personal experience. My sales of Office with new
systems has gone from virtually none to about 50% of the systems I sell. For
the OS it is much less of an increase but there was an increase. Of course
some people will still pirate software. Some are more ethical than others.
This is a fact of life.

This may be true but I don't think there was a significant amount of
shops doing this.

Open your eyes to the real world. Two business' out six in my town used to
preload unlicensed software. They are now both out of business. In the
closest city (about 60 kilometres away) I can walk into many stores and find
preloaded systems. When asked they say they can load up the system with
"free" software. For price checking purposes I visit many stores on a
regular basis. Over the last two years this practice has become far less
common or they are more careful. This is due to two things. Because of
activations and now WGA many of them have irate customers at their doorstep
complaining. Also Microsoft is actively purchasing systems and suing
business' caught doing this.

Kerry

 

[Alias]

You assume you know how I run my business. I tell my customers how the
different versions work and let them pick which one they want to purchase.
Less than 1% pick the retail version. In the last two years I have only had
one customer say they wanted to pay more and purchase the retail version
over the OEM version. I have sold a few retail upgrades to business' who
were told by Dell sales reps that they would have no problems with XP Home
in a business. Even though an OEM version would have been cheaper to buy
they also factored in the cost of rebuilding the systems and at my
recommendation went with retail. Do make assumptions.

I retract my statement then. I misunderstood you to say you recommend
retail versions.

Alias

 

[ANONYMOUS]

I see that Alias has a habit of being extremely rude on here. Try this one
Alias...crawl under the small rock you came from and never grace us with
your presence again!

His brain is located just below the belt - the part that is normally
covered with underpants!