Kind-hearted MVP needed to report a bug to Microsoft


M

mark

Hi,

I'm looking for a kind-hearted MVP to report a bug in Windows XP Professional to
Microsoft.

I don't have the resources to deal with Problem Resolution Services
(http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;EN-US;OfferProPhone), and if
this isn't a bug, I don't know what is.

The issue has to do with logging in to Administrator & fast user switching with
XP Professional SP2 in a workgroup environment.

I do not want the Administrator account on the Welcome screen. It's an
invitation for abuse. Nor do I want to maintain multiple administrator accounts.

So HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows
NT\CurrentVersion\Winlogon\SpecialAccounts\UserList\Administrator is set to 0.
The Administrator icon does not appear on the Welcome screen while it otherwise
would, because there are no other accounts with Administrator privileges.

When I want to log into Administrator, I hit ctrl+alt+delete and use the classic
logon screen.

Here's the problem:

Let's say a non-administrator is logged in, and they ask me to fix a problem.
And in order to fix the problem, I have to log into Administrator. A very common
situation.

But I can't do log off / switch user / ctrl+alt+delete twice to get the classic
logon screen and log into Administrator, because ctrl+alt+delete doesn't work if
someone is already logged in!!!!!!!

Bug #1: Hitting ctrl+alt+delete twice at the Welcome screen should consistently
switch to Classic (Windows 2000) logon, whether or not someone is already logged
in.

I would accept just this fix. But wait, there's more.

Let's say the PC has just rebooted and nobody is logged in. I hit
ctrl+alt+delete twice and log into Administrator. Then I log off / switch user
and ask the user to log into their account. But I forgot to do something and I
need to get back into Administrator, which, mind you, is still logged in.

But because Winlogon\SpecialAccounts\UserList\Administrator is 0, Administrator
will not appear on the welcome screen even though it is still logged in!!!!! And
I can't get the classic logon screen with ctrl+alt+del, because, as I mentioned
previously, it doesn't work if someone is already logged in!!!!

Bug #2: If Administrator is already logged in, then its icon should appear on
the Welcome screen, regardless of the setting of
Winlogon\SpecialAccounts\UserList\Administrator. I could understand the use of
this key to suppress an account that isn't logged in, but if it already is?
C'mon, what's the point?

There's a good chance these are bugs. I'm no programming guru, but I'd guess
that it would take less than 10 lines of code to fix both problems.

So would some kind hearted soul in the holiday spirit with a support incident to
spare please report this to Microsoft?

Thanks in advance.
 
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M

mark

"It's" by design? What is by design?

Quote:
"To temporarily use the classic logon screen, press CTRL+ALT+DEL two times on
the Welcome logon screen."

OK, so I did that. Nothing happens.

It does NOT say, "only if nobody is logged in".

So... What is by design?
 
T

Trax

(e-mail address removed) wrote:

|>"It's" by design? What is by design?

By design means a bug with seniority :)

Ensure the fast user switching service is enabled?

|>Quote:
|>"To temporarily use the classic logon screen, press CTRL+ALT+DEL two times on
|>the Welcome logon screen."
|>
|>OK, so I did that. Nothing happens.
|>
|>It does NOT say, "only if nobody is logged in".
|>
|>So... What is by design?
|>
|>
|>>It's not a bug, it's by design.
|>>
|>>How to change the logon window and the shutdown preferences in Windows XP:
|>>http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;291559&sd=tech
|>>
|>>Steve N.
|>>
|>>
|>>[email protected] wrote:
|>>
|>>> Hi,
|>>>
|>>> I'm looking for a kind-hearted MVP to report a bug in Windows XP Professional to
|>>> Microsoft.
|>>>
|>>> I don't have the resources to deal with Problem Resolution Services
|>>> (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;EN-US;OfferProPhone), and if
|>>> this isn't a bug, I don't know what is.
|>>>
|>>> The issue has to do with logging in to Administrator & fast user switching with
|>>> XP Professional SP2 in a workgroup environment.
|>>>
|>>> I do not want the Administrator account on the Welcome screen. It's an
|>>> invitation for abuse. Nor do I want to maintain multiple administrator accounts.
|>>>
|>>> So HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows
|>>> NT\CurrentVersion\Winlogon\SpecialAccounts\UserList\Administrator is set to 0.
|>>> The Administrator icon does not appear on the Welcome screen while it otherwise
|>>> would, because there are no other accounts with Administrator privileges.
|>>>
|>>> When I want to log into Administrator, I hit ctrl+alt+delete and use the classic
|>>> logon screen.
|>>>
|>>> Here's the problem:
|>>>
|>>> Let's say a non-administrator is logged in, and they ask me to fix a problem.
|>>> And in order to fix the problem, I have to log into Administrator. A very common
|>>> situation.
|>>>
|>>> But I can't do log off / switch user / ctrl+alt+delete twice to get the classic
|>>> logon screen and log into Administrator, because ctrl+alt+delete doesn't work if
|>>> someone is already logged in!!!!!!!
|>>>
|>>> Bug #1: Hitting ctrl+alt+delete twice at the Welcome screen should consistently
|>>> switch to Classic (Windows 2000) logon, whether or not someone is already logged
|>>> in.
|>>>
|>>> I would accept just this fix. But wait, there's more.
|>>>
|>>> Let's say the PC has just rebooted and nobody is logged in. I hit
|>>> ctrl+alt+delete twice and log into Administrator. Then I log off / switch user
|>>> and ask the user to log into their account. But I forgot to do something and I
|>>> need to get back into Administrator, which, mind you, is still logged in.
|>>>
|>>> But because Winlogon\SpecialAccounts\UserList\Administrator is 0, Administrator
|>>> will not appear on the welcome screen even though it is still logged in!!!!! And
|>>> I can't get the classic logon screen with ctrl+alt+del, because, as I mentioned
|>>> previously, it doesn't work if someone is already logged in!!!!
|>>>
|>>> Bug #2: If Administrator is already logged in, then its icon should appear on
|>>> the Welcome screen, regardless of the setting of
|>>> Winlogon\SpecialAccounts\UserList\Administrator. I could understand the use of
|>>> this key to suppress an account that isn't logged in, but if it already is?
|>>> C'mon, what's the point?
|>>>
|>>> There's a good chance these are bugs. I'm no programming guru, but I'd guess
|>>> that it would take less than 10 lines of code to fix both problems.
|>>>
|>>> So would some kind hearted soul in the holiday spirit with a support incident to
|>>> spare please report this to Microsoft?
|>>>
|>>> Thanks in advance.
|>>>
 
M

mark

Trax said:
(e-mail address removed) wrote:

|>"It's" by design? What is by design?

By design means a bug with seniority :)

Ensure the fast user switching service is enabled?


Yup. It's started....
 
A

Asher_N

Bringing up the stanf=dard login prompt invokes parts of the OS that are
not meant to deal with fast-user switching.
 
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M

mark

Asher_N said:
Bringing up the stanf=dard login prompt invokes parts of the OS that are
not meant to deal with fast-user switching.

Well that's unfortunate. Some parts of XP seem to have been grafted onto Windows
2000 with chewing gum and bailing wire, and fast user switching is one of them.

OK, so your comment addresses bug #1. How about bug #2, where you are already
logged in to Administrator, but because of the key
SpecialAccounts\UserList\Administrator being 0, there is no administrator icon
on the logon screen when you try to switch to another user? This in effect
orphans the Administrator session - there's no way to get back into it.
SpecialAccounts\UserList\Administrator should be ignored if a session with that
username is already logged in.
 
S

Steve N.

"It's" by design? What is by design?

The whole stinking operating system :)
Quote:
"To temporarily use the classic logon screen, press CTRL+ALT+DEL two times on
the Welcome logon screen."

OK, so I did that. Nothing happens.

It does NOT say, "only if nobody is logged in".

So... What is by design?

Ok, so it's a bad design. Next time maybe M$ should consult you and me
before designing such things. ;)

Steve N.
 
S

Steve N.

Well that's unfortunate. Some parts of XP seem to have been grafted onto Windows
2000 with chewing gum and bailing wire, and fast user switching is one of them.

You're right, but I don't think they bothered with the bailing wire,
just the spit and bubblegum.
OK, so your comment addresses bug #1. How about bug #2, where you are already
logged in to Administrator, but because of the key
SpecialAccounts\UserList\Administrator being 0, there is no administrator icon
on the logon screen when you try to switch to another user? This in effect
orphans the Administrator session - there's no way to get back into it.
SpecialAccounts\UserList\Administrator should be ignored if a session with that
username is already logged in.

I wish I knew a solution for you. Sorry Mark.

Steve N.
 
A

Asher_N

XP Pro is designed mainly to attach to domains, which dos not support
fast-user switching. Setting it up in workgroup mode enables that
feature. But by design, workgroup hides the admin. If you want to do
that, create a different admin account. It's not a bug, it's the design.
You can argue that the design is flawed, but it's still the design.
Besides, you explicitely asked Windows to NOT show admin. It's merrily
behaving the way you want.
 
H

H. S.

Steve said:
It's not a bug, it's by design.

How to change the logon window and the shutdown preferences in Windows XP:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;291559&sd=tech

Steve N.


You know what, I have always thought about how it and wondered, exactly
what design criteria were considered when fast switching was disabled in
the classic login prompt? Any idea? I believe the programmers and
engineers at MS are pretty smart people. I am sure somebody thought
about this 'feature' for a while before deciding on the way it is
implemented - I just want to understand that rationale behind it.

->HS
 
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S

Steve N.

H. S. said:
You know what, I have always thought about how it and wondered, exactly
what design criteria were considered when fast switching was disabled in
the classic login prompt? Any idea? I believe the programmers and
engineers at MS are pretty smart people. I am sure somebody thought
about this 'feature' for a while before deciding on the way it is
implemented - I just want to understand that rationale behind it.

->HS

You'll have to ask the programmers then I suppose.

Steve N.
 
M

mark

Asher_N said:
XP Pro is designed mainly to attach to domains

Wrong. Yes, it can connect to domains, but it was mainly set up for Networking.
Read http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/business/sp2_topfivechoose.mspx, bottom
of the page.
fast-user switching. Setting it up in workgroup mode enables that
feature. But by design, workgroup hides the admin.

Wrong again. By default, admin logins are enabled and show on the Welcome
screen.
If you want to do
that, create a different admin account. It's not a bug, it's the design.
You can argue that the design is flawed, but it's still the design.

Now that's just plain silly. So if a car has a design flaw that results in
deaths, you're just supposed to shrug your shoulders and say, well, that's the
design???
Besides, you explicitely asked Windows to NOT show admin. It's merrily
behaving the way you want.

The law of unintended consequences. I don't think whoever came up the
SpecialAccounts\UserList\Administrator key intended to leave orphaned sessions,
where you are already logged into an account but can't get back into it because
the SpecialAccounts\UserList\Administrator key prevents the icon from displaying
on the welcome screen.

Ditto if you walk away from the PC and it goes into screen saver and "display
Welcome screen" is checked, by the way. Another design flaw we should just
accept?

Oh please.
(e-mail address removed)
wrote in news:[email protected]:
 
S

Steve N.

Wrong. Yes, it can connect to domains, but it was mainly set up for Networking.
Read http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/business/sp2_topfivechoose.mspx, bottom
of the page.




Wrong again. By default, admin logins are enabled and show on the Welcome
screen.




Now that's just plain silly. So if a car has a design flaw that results in
deaths, you're just supposed to shrug your shoulders and say, well, that's the
design???

Hehe. I'd not buy or use that car then. :) But you're right in
principle, except that PC operating system design has never resulted in
a human death as far as I know, except perhaps for some passer-by on the
sidewalk below when someone hucks a computer out a 4th story window.
The law of unintended consequences. I don't think whoever came up the
SpecialAccounts\UserList\Administrator key intended to leave orphaned sessions,
where you are already logged into an account but can't get back into it because
the SpecialAccounts\UserList\Administrator key prevents the icon from displaying
on the welcome screen.

Ditto if you walk away from the PC and it goes into screen saver and "display
Welcome screen" is checked, by the way. Another design flaw we should just
accept?

Oh please.

I know I'm not being of any technical help to you Mark, but I
whole-heartedly agree with you and at least we can commiserate together.

Like I said before, maybe M$ should ask _us_ before implementing such
flawed designs. Fat chance there, though.

Steve N.
 
H

H. S.

Steve said:
You'll have to ask the programmers then I suppose.

Steve N.

The programmers have only that much say in the design. Whether to
include that feature or not in the final product, it probably is the
managers' decision -- or, even worse, the marketing dept.'s. I do not
know of any such person. I am sure MVPs have better chance at this. Why
don't they be the ambassadors of MS they want to be and ask?

Or, if they are willing to provide a contact I am willing to call
him/her (no tech support please, only *really* appropriate *real*
person's contact please).

->HS
 
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D

David Candy

Ctrl + Alt + Delete is not a normal feature of windows. It is a hack in case the welcome screen programmers over looked something and someone couldn't log in. It was only ment to be in XP and not future versions (cause they'll be sure it's not needed by then).

So

1. You are using the administrator account.
2. You are using a emergency feature for Welcome screen bugs

So you are not operating the computer correctly in two ways.

The only problem is you.
 
S

Steve N.

H. S. said:
The programmers have only that much say in the design. Whether to
include that feature or not in the final product, it probably is the
managers' decision -- or, even worse, the marketing dept.'s. I do not
know of any such person. I am sure MVPs have better chance at this.

LOL! I doubt it. They're just a buncha regular schmoes like you and me,
and aren't privy to much more info than you or I could find.


Why
don't they be the ambassadors of MS they want to be and ask?

Cuz maybe they just don't know? Ambassadors! LOL! That's a good'n. No
offense MVP guys and gals :)
Or, if they are willing to provide a contact I am willing to call
him/her (no tech support please, only *really* appropriate *real*
person's contact please).

->HS

Good luck on that call idea.

Steve N.
 
H

H. S.

Steve said:
LOL! I doubt it. They're just a buncha regular schmoes like you and me,
and aren't privy to much more info than you or I could find.





Cuz maybe they just don't know? Ambassadors! LOL! That's a good'n. No
offense MVP guys and gals :)



Good luck on that call idea.

Steve N.


All right, I get the general idea ... sigh.

It looks like the fast switching "feature" is just an attempt at
mimicking Unix/Linux. I have never seen fast switching at a large secure
installation of XP. And it appears as if the fast switching is not
secure enough, or is so buggy, or is so crippled, that it cannot be
deployed at such installations. And MS doesn't want to accept that
openly. So, marketing said it wants fast switching and engineers said
"No way, the core OS kernel is too flawed." and marketing won, but
engineers put some sense into all this and disabled it in the scenario
where secure installation is required. This is just hypothesis of course.

->HS
 
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S

Steve N.

H. S. said:
Steve N. wrote:





All right, I get the general idea ... sigh.

It looks like the fast switching "feature" is just an attempt at
mimicking Unix/Linux. I have never seen fast switching at a large secure
installation of XP. And it appears as if the fast switching is not
secure enough, or is so buggy, or is so crippled, that it cannot be
deployed at such installations. And MS doesn't want to accept that
openly. So, marketing said it wants fast switching and engineers said
"No way, the core OS kernel is too flawed." and marketing won, but
engineers put some sense into all this and disabled it in the scenario
where secure installation is required. This is just hypothesis of course.

->HS

Specuation?

Windows is not *nix/*nux. Never has been, never will be. You want
*nix/*nux finctions? Use one of those OSes then.

Steve N.
 

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