Installing WinXP on a Windows Vista 64 Bit Laptop

[jaugustine]

Hi,

I know someone who is selling his HP Pavilion DV7-1444US
laptop (64 bit) with Windows Vista.

I am thinking about buying it, format the HDD, and install
WinXP home edition, but I wonder if I may encounter
an issue(s)?

Thank You in advance, John

 

[Mayayana]

As David said, you won't be able to get "official"
drivers. I would just add one note: If you want to
do it you should be able to track down the actual
hardware models of video, motherboard, audio, etc
and see if the original compainies have XP drivers.
There's no reason you need to get them from HP.

I don't know how likely it is that you'll find all the
drivers. OEMs are generally just packagers. They don't
really make computers. They just assemble the parts
in the own logo-festooned boxes. So most drivers should
be available. But in some cases (Dell comes to mind)
they may actually make a deal with a hardware company
for custom hardware. In that case you'd be out of luck.

 

[jaugustine]

As David said, you won't be able to get "official"
drivers. I would just add one note: If you want to
do it you should be able to track down the actual
hardware models of video, motherboard, audio, etc
and see if the original compainies have XP drivers.
There's no reason you need to get them from HP.

I don't know how likely it is that you'll find all the
drivers. OEMs are generally just packagers. They don't
really make computers. They just assemble the parts
in the own logo-festooned boxes. So most drivers should
be available. But in some cases (Dell comes to mind)
they may actually make a deal with a hardware company
for custom hardware. In that case you'd be out of luck.

Hi,

You(s) made very good points regarding drivers. Since
I have other laptops, I wasn't desperate to get this one.
I will not purchase that laptop.

Note: I do not know the amount of ram it has. I was
going to download the user manual (.PDF) to get the
details, but now I won't bother.

Again Thanks, John

 

[VanguardLH]

As David said, you won't be able to get "official" drivers. I would
just add one note: If you want to do it you should be able to track
down the actual hardware models of video, motherboard, audio, etc and
see if the original compainies have XP drivers. There's no reason you
need to get them from HP.

Just be aware that getting the drivers from the chip makers means you
get their reference drivers. Those won't be customized a particular
hardware implemenation. There may be customized functions missing in
the reference driver. Ancillary logic may be employed at the board
level to support or add to chip functions. Not all functions of a chip
may be employed in a particular hardware implementation so the reference
driver could have functions that won't work thereby cause problems.
Functionality can change from the chip level to the board level. Use
reference drivers when they're the only ones available.

 

[VanguardLH]

I know someone who is selling his HP Pavilion DV7-1444US laptop (64
bit) with Windows Vista. I am thinking about buying it, format the
HDD, and install WinXP home edition, but I wonder if I may encounter
an issue(s)?

So, are you going to buy a new license of Windows XP (not from Microsoft
but from a reseller who may still have a quota of licenses they can
still sell)? If so, spend the money on Windows 7. HP has drivers for
Windows 7 for that model.

If you're going to reuse a Windows XP license, where is it coming from?
Do you have an unused license of Windows XP sitting around? Or has it
installed on a computer? If it was previously or currently installed
then you can transfer it to a new computer only if it is a retail
license (full or upgrade). After the transfer to the new computer, you
can't use it on the old computer. If it is an OEM version, you can't
transfer it to another computer. OEM licenses stick permanently to the
first computer onto which they are installed.

 

[Mayayana]

I've never heard of reference drivers. You're saying
that HP would actually write their own drivers for, say,
a video card?

That's something to be aware of, but I wonder how
much it actually matters in practice. Most of the
drivers needed will be for the motherboard or onboard
chips these days, anyway. That's coming from the
motherboard maker. Even in the case of expansion cards,
.... say there were an nVidia geForce card.... any
expansion card is mainly an after-market product that
uses factory drivers designed for each OS -- what you're
calling reference drivers. If they were inferior then it
wouldn't make sense to buy such cards.

| Mayayana wrote:
|
| > As David said, you won't be able to get "official" drivers. I would
| > just add one note: If you want to do it you should be able to track
| > down the actual hardware models of video, motherboard, audio, etc and
| > see if the original compainies have XP drivers. There's no reason you
| > need to get them from HP.
|
| Just be aware that getting the drivers from the chip makers means you
| get their reference drivers. Those won't be customized a particular
| hardware implemenation. There may be customized functions missing in
| the reference driver. Ancillary logic may be employed at the board
| level to support or add to chip functions. Not all functions of a chip
| may be employed in a particular hardware implementation so the reference
| driver could have functions that won't work thereby cause problems.
| Functionality can change from the chip level to the board level. Use
| reference drivers when they're the only ones available.

 

[VanguardLH]

...


I've never heard of reference drivers. You're saying that HP would
actually write their own drivers for, say, a video card?

That's something to be aware of, but I wonder how much it actually
matters in practice. Most of the drivers needed will be for the
motherboard or onboard chips these days, anyway. That's coming from
the motherboard maker. Even in the case of expansion cards, .... say
there were an nVidia geForce card.... any expansion card is mainly an
after-market product that uses factory drivers designed for each OS
-- what you're calling reference drivers. If they were inferior then
it wouldn't make sense to buy such cards.

I know from hardware QA that testing a chip level changes at board
level. You may be able to test for functionality at the chip level that
is not available at the board level. The chip may require ancilliary
logic on the board to implement a function. The board may not implement
some functions of the chip. You've never seen chips that do not have
all pins used? You've never seen boards that had solder pads for chips
or components that are missing? The same chip does not always get used
the same way. Boards don'ts always have the same layout; else, if they
did, there would be no difference between brands. It depends on what
the vendor specifies to production as to what system level functionality
is required and how production decides to implement the high-level
functionality at the chip and board and system level.

Yes, the drivers you get from chip makers are reference drivers. They
cannot provide customized drivers for every conceivable implementation
under which the chip may be used. That's why, for example, when a
hardware tester gets the initial production of a product that all they
may get are reference drivers. Benchmarking may not be great in some
areas and some functions may fail because the customized drivers are not
yet available from the board-level vendor. If the board is a reference
model then the reference driver is all you have. Tweaking is not the
only means of differentiation of brand but implementation more features
or adding more logic can also differentiate a brand.

 

[Mayayana]

|
| I know from hardware QA that testing a chip level changes at board
| level. You may be able to test for functionality at the chip level that
| is not available at the board level. The chip may require ancilliary
| logic on the board to implement a function. The board may not implement
| some functions of the chip. You've never seen chips that do not have
| all pins used? You've never seen boards that had solder pads for chips
| or components that are missing? The same chip does not always get used
| the same way.

If you're getting the drivers from the board manufacturer I
don't see how that applies. Though when I checked with HP
on the product in question, they don't list the board in their
specs. It seems to be their own board, or at least they've
had the board built to be their product. So it looks like in this
case, at least, that may be an issue. On the other hand, HP
gives specs for things like the onboard ATI Radeon graphics.
I wouldn't expect any problems installing such a driver from
ATI, assuming they have an XP version.

 

[Paul]

|
| I know from hardware QA that testing a chip level changes at board
| level. You may be able to test for functionality at the chip level that
| is not available at the board level. The chip may require ancilliary
| logic on the board to implement a function. The board may not implement
| some functions of the chip. You've never seen chips that do not have
| all pins used? You've never seen boards that had solder pads for chips
| or components that are missing? The same chip does not always get used
| the same way.

If you're getting the drivers from the board manufacturer I
don't see how that applies. Though when I checked with HP
on the product in question, they don't list the board in their
specs. It seems to be their own board, or at least they've
had the board built to be their product. So it looks like in this
case, at least, that may be an issue. On the other hand, HP
gives specs for things like the onboard ATI Radeon graphics.
I wouldn't expect any problems installing such a driver from
ATI, assuming they have an XP version.

The only tricky part of a laptop, is the LVDS panel connection
to the GPU. As far as I know, it isn't a Plug and Play interface.
The GPU or chipset (for internal GPUs), doesn't know what it is.

This requires "something" to be done to the bog-standard driver
package, to make it automatically set the LCD screen to a
usable resolution.

When people replace the LCD panel on a laptop and use a panel
not intended for it (use the compatible HD panel to replace
the lower res panel option), the side and bottom areas remain black.
Which suggests either a driver, or something passing as a
VESA BIOS module, are providing information to replace the
Plug and Play not present on LVDS.

LVDS is a thin ribbon cable, between the panel and the mainboard.
It's a high speed, unidirectional bus. There is no SDATA or
SCLOCK on it, to carry EDID.

This is the only thing that would prevent me from buying
<random_laptop> and running <older_OS>.

There are a couple of notebook review sites, that
have on occasion released "hacked" driver packages. This is
to allow gamers using notebooks, to gain the benefits of
later driver releases on their machines. Tracking down
such, is fine if you already own the machine, but risky
if you're expecting to dig up such an animal when you
actually have the laptop in your home. I don't even know
a reliable search term to use, to start such a search.
But I have coincidentally run into such discussion
threads.

I certainly wouldn't attempt to pick up such a driver
off the gazillion "DriverUpdaterForYou" type sites :-(

Paul

 

[Mayayana]

| The only tricky part of a laptop, is the LVDS panel connection
| to the GPU. As far as I know, it isn't a Plug and Play interface.
| The GPU or chipset (for internal GPUs), doesn't know what it is.
|
| This requires "something" to be done to the bog-standard driver
| package, to make it automatically set the LCD screen to a
| usable resolution.

I didn't know about any of this. I have almost
no experience with laptops or notebooks. Are
laptops in the same category as notebooks, or
more like PCs in terms of hardware? You're saying
that PC graphic drivers won't work on either?

 

[Paul]

| The only tricky part of a laptop, is the LVDS panel connection
| to the GPU. As far as I know, it isn't a Plug and Play interface.
| The GPU or chipset (for internal GPUs), doesn't know what it is.
|
| This requires "something" to be done to the bog-standard driver
| package, to make it automatically set the LCD screen to a
| usable resolution.

I didn't know about any of this. I have almost
no experience with laptops or notebooks. Are
laptops in the same category as notebooks, or
more like PCs in terms of hardware? You're saying
that PC graphic drivers won't work on either?

GPUs (or GPU + chipset combos), have defined
interfaces such as DVI, HDMI, VGA. And those are properly
fitted to do Plug and Play. They would have a serial bus
for the EDID coming back from an external monitor.

The other kind of output a GPU can have, is a parallel
digital bus of some sort, for connection to an outboard
conversion chip. You can get DVD or HDMI "transmitter" chips
(from Silicon Image), which convert a GPU bus into a usable signal.
This method has been used on some video cards, to drive one of the
faceplate connectors.

It's also possible, to drive something like LVDS (low voltage
differential) to a panel, but in that case, there was never
an intention for LVDS interfaces to drive anything like
a multi-sync monitor (i.e. something with resolution options).

Regular desktops, don't use LVDS. It is mobile devices or an all-in-one,
where a GPU may be in relatively close proximity to an LCD panel,
where there is an opportunity for a low cost LVDS ribbon cable.
The only problem with that, as I understand it, is a lack of PNP
for that particular hardware. The OS can't tell what it is driving.
Something in there, provides "fake" information, to take the
place of the missing PNP. Things like desktop video cards,
they have a VESA BIOS stored in a flash ROM on the video card.
(I've re-flashed a card here, to change that code.)
A laptop, the most appropriate storage location for a flash ROM
of that type, would be to share space within the BIOS flash chip.
That way, there would be no need to connect a config ROM to
the chipset or a similar location.

I don't know exactly how it works, but my suspicion is, the
laptop/notebook maker video driver, is a regular video driver,
with enough files added to solve the LVDS panel problem.

If the laptop with the retrofitted HD panel had worked properly,
that would prove PNP was present. When the HD panel ended up with black
bars on right side and bottom, that tells me no PNP is available in hardware.
The laptop in that case, did not know a different panel was present.

Paul

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

| The only tricky part of a laptop, is the LVDS panel connection
| to the GPU. As far as I know, it isn't a Plug and Play interface.
| The GPU or chipset (for internal GPUs), doesn't know what it is.
|
| This requires "something" to be done to the bog-standard driver
| package, to make it automatically set the LCD screen to a
| usable resolution.

I didn't know about any of this. I have almost
no experience with laptops or notebooks. Are
laptops in the same category as notebooks, or
more like PCs in terms of hardware? You're saying
that PC graphic drivers won't work on either?

See Paul's excellent reply for more than I ever knew about specifically
graphic matters.For the general terms: I would say "laptop" and "notebook" are more or
less synonymous, with the latter term being less used these days;
"netbook" is a type of (usually small - originally there were lots of 7"
ones, though they mostly settled on 10"; I have a 12", but there were
only ever two or three models that big) laptop/notebook, the main
difference being that they have no optical drive (CD/DVD), which makes
them thinner/lighter (and I think may contribute to battery life).
Netbooks also _tend_ to be on the lower side of spec.s - usually single
core processor (though I think a few duals have appeared recently), more
likely than not 1G of RAM, though they'll usually _take_ at least 2G.

The lack of optical drive isn't that much of a disadvantage these days -
I bought an external one, but very rarely use it!

"Ultrabook" is a term (possibly originally promulgated by just one
manufacturer?) for a higher-spec netbook, i. e. a laptop/notebook with
multicore processor, lots of RAM, and so on, but still no optical drive.
(I think I've even seen one with [only] an SSD.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

# 10^-12 boos = 1 picoboo # 2*10^3 mockingbirds = 2 kilo mockingbird
# 10^21 piccolos = 1 gigolo # 10^12 microphones = 1 megaphone
# 10**9 questions = 1 gigawhat

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

For the general terms: I would say "laptop" and "notebook" are more or
less synonymous, with the latter term being less used these days;

Ditto! They are even more than "more or less synonymous." They *are*
synonymous.

"netbook" is a type of (usually small - originally there were lots of 7"
ones, though they mostly settled on 10"; I have a 12", but there were
only ever two or three models that big) laptop/notebook,

Yes. I hate the term "netbook," which implies that it's something
different. I prefer to simply say "small laptop."

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Ditto! They are even more than "more or less synonymous." They *are*
synonymous.

I would agree; I am sure there are some who wouldn't.

Yes. I hate the term "netbook," which implies that it's something
different. I prefer to simply say "small laptop."

Well, they are different, to the extent that they don't have an optical
drive: I've never seen anything being sold as a netbook that did.
Granted, most of them _are_ also small (originally a lot of 7" ones,
though they seem to have settled around 10"), but there are at least two
12" netbooks around. There are also 12" laptop/notebooks, but AFAIK
those all have optical drives.

(Having no OD makes for a _thinner_ - not necessarily smaller - machine;
it _seems_ to help with battery life too, though I don't see why it
should.)

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

I would agree; I am sure there are some who wouldn't.
Well, they are different, to the extent that they don't have an optical
drive:

But there are also computers called laptops that don't have optical
drives (for example the $299.99 Dell Inspiron 15). And even if there
weren't any such, to me that is too small a difference to warrant a
separate name. Some desktops have floppy drives and some don't, but
that doesn't mean the two get two separate names.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>, "Ken Blake,

But there are also computers called laptops that don't have optical
drives (for example the $299.99 Dell Inspiron 15). And even if there
weren't any such, to me that is too small a difference to warrant a
separate name. Some desktops have floppy drives and some don't, but
that doesn't mean the two get two separate names.

Well, I know what a manufacturer means when they say netbook: to me it's
a small, probably fairly low-powered as far as processor and memory are
concerned, laptop, optimised for internet use - email and browsing (and
probably with a longer battery life than many). I suppose, since most
PCs are used for those these days, that the appeal of the netbook has
declined, and certainly one doesn't hear as much about them these days.
But when they first came out, I knew what they were and how they were
different.

But feel free to hate the term (-:!

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

Well, I know what a manufacturer means when they say netbook: to me it's
a small, probably fairly low-powered as far as processor and memory are
concerned, laptop, optimised for internet use - email and browsing (and
probably with a longer battery life than many).

You're saying essentially the same thing I said about them--they are
small laptops. That's why they don't deserve a separate name any more
than a small car deserves a separate name.

 

[BillW50]

In VanguardLH typed:

If you're going to reuse a Windows XP license, where is it coming
from? Do you have an unused license of Windows XP sitting around? Or
has it installed on a computer? If it was previously or currently
installed then you can transfer it to a new computer only if it is a
retail license (full or upgrade). After the transfer to the new
computer, you can't use it on the old computer. If it is an OEM
version, you can't transfer it to another computer. OEM licenses
stick permanently to the first computer onto which they are installed.

What about downgrade rights? I have personally exercised this right on
some of my machines that came with Vista. Oddly enough, the OEM (in most
cases) nor Microsoft will not supply you the downgrade Windows, nor the
key. And it is my understanding how you get it done is completely legal.
Meaning even if you use a key from an abandon OEM machine is perfectly
fine. I never had to go that route myself, as I got the disc from the
manufacture which was an preactivated install of Windows XP using their
generic OEM key.