Hey FAT32 users, take advantage of new exFAT file system

  • Thread starter Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP)
  • Start date
W

WhiteTea

Microsoft released a successor to FAT32 that allows you take get past
the limitations of FAT32 with exFAT. For those out there still using
FAT32, this is for you. Get the info and driver here:http://support.microsoft.com/kb/955704/

- Thee Chicago Wolf

Thanks for the info.

I read the info at the site and had a question.

I have a FAT 32 drive as a secondary "storage" drive.

Will exFAT allow me to continue to use files copied to that drive
without those "permission" issues
that are present in NTFS ?

Thanks.
 
B

BillW50

In WhiteTea typed on Wed, 28 Jan 2009 13:23:02 -0800 (PST):
Thanks for the info.

I read the info at the site and had a question.

I have a FAT 32 drive as a secondary "storage" drive.

Will exFAT allow me to continue to use files copied to that drive
without those "permission" issues
that are present in NTFS ?

Thanks.

Is there a permission issue when using USB NTFS hard drives? Gosh I hope
not. Or I will be in trouble when using them on another system.

--
Bill
2 Gateway MX6124 - Windows XP SP2
3 Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
2 Asus EEE PC 702G8 ~ 1GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Windows XP SP2 ~ Xandros Linux - Puppy - Ubuntu
 
T

Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP)

Thanks for the info.
I read the info at the site and had a question.

I have a FAT 32 drive as a secondary "storage" drive.

Will exFAT allow me to continue to use files copied to that drive
without those "permission" issues
that are present in NTFS ?

Thanks.

Yes, I don't see why not. It appears to be backwards compatible. Of
course, if you should ever plug an exFAT formatted drive into another
XP computer without the exFAT driver, you'd be hosed. In reality,
you'd be better off converting your FAT32 to NTFS using the convert
command so you won't have to worry about any limitations of the FAT32
or exFAT filesystems. You'd also be better protected against data
corruption. If it's just a storage drive, you shouldn't encounter any
permission issues since it just a storage volume and not your C:
drive.

- Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP)
 
T

Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP)

Is there a permission issue when using USB NTFS hard drives? Gosh I hope
not. Or I will be in trouble when using them on another system.

Not on XP, Vista, or Windows 7. Remember, even if it is NTFS
formatted, it has full read and write permissions and nothing more by
default. Removable drives always have this as a default setting when
formatted NTFS. Nothing to worry about.

- Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP)
 
B

BillW50

In Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP) typed on Wed, 28 Jan 2009 15:39:14 -0600:
Not on XP, Vista, or Windows 7. Remember, even if it is NTFS
formatted, it has full read and write permissions and nothing more by
default. Removable drives always have this as a default setting when
formatted NTFS. Nothing to worry about.

- Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP)

Many thanks! :)

--
Bill
2 Gateway MX6124 - Windows XP SP2
3 Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
2 Asus EEE PC 702G8 ~ 1GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Windows XP SP2 ~ Xandros Linux - Puppy - Ubuntu
 
W

WhiteTea

Yes, I don't see why not. It appears to be backwards compatible. Of
course, if you should ever plug an exFAT formatted drive into another
XP computer without the exFAT driver, you'd be hosed. In reality,
you'd be better off converting your FAT32 to NTFS using the convert
command so you won't have to worry about any limitations of the FAT32
or exFAT filesystems. You'd also be better protected against data
corruption. If it's just a storage drive, you shouldn't encounter any
permission issues since it just a storage volume and not your C:
drive.

- Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP)

I asked because I did have permission issues when copying files to it
from a NTFS drive.

I will study it more.

Andy
 
B

Bill in Co.

Thee said:
Yes, I don't see why not. It appears to be backwards compatible. Of
course, if you should ever plug an exFAT formatted drive into another
XP computer without the exFAT driver, you'd be hosed. In reality,
you'd be better off converting your FAT32 to NTFS using the convert
command so you won't have to worry about any limitations of the FAT32
or exFAT filesystems. You'd also be better protected against data
corruption. If it's just a storage drive, you shouldn't encounter any
permission issues since it just a storage volume and not your C:
drive.

Seconded. The article was is interesting, but there are too many
potential pitfalls with using it, as you've mentioned.
 
T

Terry R.

The date and time was Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:14:24 AM, and on a
whim, Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP) pounded out on the keyboard:
Microsoft released a successor to FAT32 that allows you take get past
the limitations of FAT32 with exFAT. For those out there still using
FAT32, this is for you. Get the info and driver here:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/955704/

- Thee Chicago Wolf

If Win9x won't be able to read it, I can't see the point of this. I
have a FAT32 partition for sharing data on the OS's that don't
read/write to NTFS. If xfat isn't backward compatible, why wouldn't an
XP or Vista user continue to use NTFS instead?


Terry R.
 
T

Thee Chicago Wolf

Yes, I don't see why not. It appears to be backwards compatible. Of
Seconded. The article was is interesting, but there are too many
potential pitfalls with using it, as you've mentioned.

Maybe, maybe not. It just seems that when FAt32 was introduced way
back in 1996, MS must not have realized that 10+ years later we'd be
dealing with files that were 4GB or bigger and hit the FAT32 ceiling.
It's nice that at least it's getting an update. Even if it it's a bit
post mortem. Still, the FAT32 folks will appreciate it until the rest
of the planet starts getting devices formatted exFAt and go WTF, I
can't read this! So this begs the question, WHERE THE HECK IS WINFS!

- Thee Chicago Wolf
 
T

Thee Chicago Wolf

The date and time was Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:14:24 AM, and on a
whim, Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP) pounded out on the keyboard:


If Win9x won't be able to read it, I can't see the point of this. I
have a FAT32 partition for sharing data on the OS's that don't
read/write to NTFS. If xfat isn't backward compatible, why wouldn't an
XP or Vista user continue to use NTFS instead?

Well, in a perfect world, everyone would be on NTFS. I look at it as
more of a bandage for the ceiling limits of FAT32. For those who got
their machines out of the factory with FAT32 on them instead of NTFS.
I see why it's useful in the gee whiz sort of way...but...<shrug> I'm
curious to see how it'll play out.

- Thee Chicago Wolf
 
B

Bill in Co.

Thee said:
Maybe, maybe not. It just seems that when FAt32 was introduced way
back in 1996, MS must not have realized that 10+ years later we'd be
dealing with files that were 4GB or bigger and hit the FAT32 ceiling.
It's nice that at least it's getting an update. Even if it it's a bit
post mortem. Still, the FAT32 folks will appreciate it until the rest
of the planet starts getting devices formatted exFAt

It's not going to happen. Anyone dealing with large files (> 4GB) is
already using NTFS (for the partition containing such files), and this
avoids the legacy problems introduced by introducing such a new format that
is not backwards compatible. In short, there is little value to it.

Even if your main C: boot drive is currently using FAT32, you have a couple
of other more sound choices:

1) convert that partition to NTFS (but make a backup first, of course), and
join the rest of the XP world. :) NTFS has some obvious advantages
here.
I'm not sure how problematic the conversion can be for a boot drive, though.
(better yet, do a fresh install of XP on NTFS, and then reinstall your apps)

OR

2) use another partition formatted as NTFS to store and work with such large
files, say like a partition named "Video". (which I think is principally
where you need to work with such large files)
 
L

Lil' Dave

Terry R. said:
The date and time was Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:14:24 AM, and on a
whim, Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP) pounded out on the keyboard:


If Win9x won't be able to read it, I can't see the point of this. I have
a FAT32 partition for sharing data on the OS's that don't read/write to
NTFS. If xfat isn't backward compatible, why wouldn't an XP or Vista user
continue to use NTFS instead?

Win9X is an acronym for Windows 95 and Windows 98. Windows 95 has 4
variations, one original and 3 subsequent updates A, B, and C. The original
version and version A were stuck at FAT16 only. At version B and forward 95
went to FAT32 capability and 32 bit operating system. 98 and 98 Second
Edition incorporated that capabiliity as well. The max file size is/was 4
GB, under some circumstances within those operating systems it may actually
be a 2GB file size limitation for FAT32. Those operating systems also
suffer something called bit wrap. This seems to occur when those operating
system "see" a total of more than 128 GB total of file written data on
formatted partitions (multiple partitions) on one hard drive. When that
threshold is exceeded, the following write will botch that data written,
and, foul up the file allocation table of that partition. Windows
Millenium does not suffer from this bit wrap problem I've described and does
not fall under the very broad "9X" description.

My point being in the end part of the previous paragragh is even if the
update did work for "9X" for files larger than 4GB, you would still have the
bit wrap problem. Terribly limiting at the very least.
 
W

WhiteTea

The date and time was Wednesday, January 28, 2009 11:14:24 AM, and on a
whim, Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP) pounded out on the keyboard:



If Win9x won't be able to read it, I can't see the point of this.  I
have a FAT32 partition for sharing data on the OS's that don't
read/write to NTFS.  If xfat isn't backward compatible, why wouldn't an
XP or Vista user continue to use NTFS instead?

Terry R.

Using a FAT32 has the disadvantage of having larger cluster sizes and
more wasted disk space.

For my applications, that is a tradeoff that I can live with.

Andy
 
T

Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP)

It's not going to happen. Anyone dealing with large files (> 4GB) is
already using NTFS (for the partition containing such files), and this
avoids the legacy problems introduced by introducing such a new format that
is not backwards compatible. In short, there is little value to it.

Even if your main C: boot drive is currently using FAT32, you have a couple
of other more sound choices:

1) convert that partition to NTFS (but make a backup first, of course), and
join the rest of the XP world. :) NTFS has some obvious advantages
here.
I'm not sure how problematic the conversion can be for a boot drive, though.
(better yet, do a fresh install of XP on NTFS, and then reinstall your apps)

OR

2) use another partition formatted as NTFS to store and work with such large
files, say like a partition named "Video". (which I think is principally
where you need to work with such large files)

No, it's not going to happen. I agree. It's a stop-gap. But remember,
us techie types know NTFS is the way to go. But joe and jane user who
bought their computer from HP or Dell and their C: drive came out of
the factory as FAT32, exFAT is more for them *until* someone can
convert their C: or removable volumes to NTFS for them, which is easy
as pie. I did this for someone recently who's removable backup drive
and C: drive were FAT32.

If everyone was on NTFS, there'd be no need for exFAT. But think about
this, when joe or jane user buys a flash drive, it comes out of the
package FAT32. Any drive I've bought has been at least. And now we're
seeing flash drives at 64GB, soon 128GB, 256GB, etc. When you plug
them in, you only get the option to format FAT32 or exFAT(on 4GB or
greater, 2GB or less can be formatted FAT or FAT32 / exFAT), no NTFS.
Sure you can probably format it to NTFS too. Plug in an external USB
or Firewire drive and the story changes as far as formatting options
go as well. exFAT, on the surface, is intended for removable media
really but you can format other stuff with it. Of course, plug it into
a computer that doesn't have an exFAT driver and it's useless. And
there's also the question of support for other OSes and NTFS. Correct
me if I'm wrong but plug any NTFS formatted device into Linux, it'll
just stare at you. You'd need NTFS3G. Plug an NTFS formatted device it
into a Mac and you can read it, but no write access. FAT32, no problem
on either.

So in the end, exFAT fixes a limitation in FAT32 but no one is going
to use it unless it gets support. It's a niche file format. Those who
do use it will find themselves very alone for now. I kind of hope that
MS pushes it out via Windows update so everyone at least has support
for it and because I can see the one guy showing up in my computer lab
with a formatted exFAT device and the computers not being able to read
the data and him complaining to my department. Never mind all the
other OSes that will now have to get the specifications for exFAT and
add support for it. It's nuts.

- Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP)
 
B

BillW50

In Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP) typed on Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:18:08 -0600:
... And there's also the question of support for other OSes and NTFS.
Correct me if I'm wrong but plug any NTFS formatted device into Linux,
it'll just stare at you...

Actually modern Linux distros read NTFS just fine. Even SATA drives,
which Windows XP SP2 can't from stock. Unfortunately, I haven't seen a
Linux Live version be able to write to a NTFS yet.

And I am not convinced that NTFS is always best either. As isn't it true
that viruses can be attached to other files that you can't even see in
the directories/folders?

--
Bill
2 Gateway MX6124 - Windows XP SP2
3 Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
2 Asus EEE PC 702G8 ~ 1GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Windows XP SP2 ~ Xandros Linux - Puppy - Ubuntu
 
T

Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP)

Actually modern Linux distros read NTFS just fine. Even SATA drives,
which Windows XP SP2 can't from stock. Unfortunately, I haven't seen a
Linux Live version be able to write to a NTFS yet.

I'm not as versed in what Linux supports but that does sound right to
me.
And I am not convinced that NTFS is always best either. As isn't it true
that viruses can be attached to other files that you can't even see in
the directories/folders?

For those joe and jane users that are on FAT32 for C:, converting them
to NTFS can bring problems as well. Some app that worked fine in FAT32
might now be broken in NTFS due to permissions. It fixes one thing but
breaks another, no? Of course, since all users log in as non-Admin
with restricted user permissions as per the MS principle of least
privileges, it should always work in NTFS. Not.

NTFS or not, if users were logged in with restricted rights, there
would likely be less virus problems from joe and jane user clicking on
bad things and it runs some installer in the background and infects
them.

- Thee Chicago Wolf (MVP)
 
T

Terry R.

The date and time was Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:14:51 AM, and on a
whim, Lil' Dave pounded out on the keyboard:
Win9X is an acronym for Windows 95 and Windows 98. Windows 95 has 4
variations, one original and 3 subsequent updates A, B, and C. The original
version and version A were stuck at FAT16 only. At version B and forward 95
went to FAT32 capability and 32 bit operating system. 98 and 98 Second
Edition incorporated that capabiliity as well. The max file size is/was 4
GB, under some circumstances within those operating systems it may actually
be a 2GB file size limitation for FAT32. Those operating systems also
suffer something called bit wrap. This seems to occur when those operating
system "see" a total of more than 128 GB total of file written data on
formatted partitions (multiple partitions) on one hard drive. When that
threshold is exceeded, the following write will botch that data written,
and, foul up the file allocation table of that partition. Windows
Millenium does not suffer from this bit wrap problem I've described and does
not fall under the very broad "9X" description.

My point being in the end part of the previous paragragh is even if the
update did work for "9X" for files larger than 4GB, you would still have the
bit wrap problem. Terribly limiting at the very least.

I only use Win9x to point out DOS versions prior to the NT kernel. I
think most others do too. I have DOS, Win98SE & Me on partitions on
this workstation. I haven't run into the bit wrap issue and I have 3
hard drives on this workstation, with each drive having multiple
partitions, and the data drive is fat32 and is shared between them.
Maybe they don't total more than 128 gig, I haven't checked.

I actually go into those Win OS's less and less, but continue to use the
DOS partition frequently, as I have it boot to PM8 to create my OS
backups each month.

I'm curious to see how this will play out.

Terry R.
 
T

Tim Slattery

BillW50 said:
And I am not convinced that NTFS is always best either. As isn't it true
that viruses can be attached to other files that you can't even see in
the directories/folders?

There are "files that you can't even see" in NTFS, they are called
Alternate Data Streams or Named Data Streams. See
http://members.cox.net/slatteryt/Streams.html for a discussion.

I suppose somebody could come up with a way to use ADS for their
malware, especially to hide its data files. I haven't heard of any
cases of this.
 
B

BillW50

In Tim Slattery typed on Thu, 29 Jan 2009 12:19:21 -0500:
There are "files that you can't even see" in NTFS, they are called
Alternate Data Streams or Named Data Streams. See
http://members.cox.net/slatteryt/Streams.html for a discussion.

I suppose somebody could come up with a way to use ADS for their
malware, especially to hide its data files. I haven't heard of any
cases of this.

Ah yes, ADS (Alternate Data Streams) was the phrase I was trying to
think of. Many thanks! And Ad-Aware SE (and probably Ad-Aware 2007 &
2008) does offer to scan ADS as well. So they must know something to
offer this as part of the scan, you think?

--
Bill
2 Gateway MX6124 - Windows XP SP2
3 Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
2 Asus EEE PC 702G8 ~ 1GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Windows XP SP2 ~ Xandros Linux - Puppy - Ubuntu
 

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