M
McG.
...winston said:
I agree with you there, Winston.
McG.
I agree with you there, Winston.
McG.
G
Guest
Great point and I'm actually am certain you're correct about making choices.
I'm not conviced that they 'get' it, though. If they do... then they need to
find a different set of consultants. All I'm suggesting is a little more
control for those who need it. That doesn't take away from all the wizards
in the world. I'm not suggesting they take away a single new-user feature.
I've been programming for over 30 years and I just don't buy that they need
to compromise in this way. The suggestion is that they can have their cake
and eat it to. I'm just not convinced that they can't serve multiple markets
better than they do.
I'm not conviced that they 'get' it, though. If they do... then they need to
find a different set of consultants. All I'm suggesting is a little more
control for those who need it. That doesn't take away from all the wizards
in the world. I'm not suggesting they take away a single new-user feature.
I've been programming for over 30 years and I just don't buy that they need
to compromise in this way. The suggestion is that they can have their cake
and eat it to. I'm just not convinced that they can't serve multiple markets
better than they do.
G
Guest
Thank you. I understand and appreciate that. That's why I responded to
explain that the 'impetus' was only that.... the post was about the larger
concept.
I have no idea which package I'll use. I've been manually backing up my
stuff for years. I'll have to do the research now to see if there's a
product I like well enough and will save me enough time to motivate a
purchase.
explain that the 'impetus' was only that.... the post was about the larger
concept.
I have no idea which package I'll use. I've been manually backing up my
stuff for years. I'll have to do the research now to see if there's a
product I like well enough and will save me enough time to motivate a
purchase.
G
Guest
Conceptually... I just have to add is that the backup got to me so much
because it already does what I want it to do. Those wizards HAVE to
ultimately go in and make specific selections based on some criteria. All I
want is the ability to select my own criteria in my own way. I've been a
programmer for 30 years and I know that all it would take is a simple
directory screen with check boxes - probably using existing APIs - in
addition to what is already there - and 'poof' it is a perfect backup tool
for power users, as well as, novices.
because it already does what I want it to do. Those wizards HAVE to
ultimately go in and make specific selections based on some criteria. All I
want is the ability to select my own criteria in my own way. I've been a
programmer for 30 years and I know that all it would take is a simple
directory screen with check boxes - probably using existing APIs - in
addition to what is already there - and 'poof' it is a perfect backup tool
for power users, as well as, novices.
P
-Phil Clemence
Jupiter Jones said:
It could be that he meant AT THE TIMES when he is forced to.
You see that phrase and jump on it because it is the only thing you can use
to defend Vista?
K
Kerry Brown
Pat Keller said:
The options are still there. Some are not well documented. Some you have to
download. For troubleshooting tools Vista is better than any previous
Microsoft OS. Many of the command line tools have enhanced and new features.
Here's one of the most powerful shells ever for Windows.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/technologies/management/powershell/default.mspx
There's a powerful imaging (backup) command line tool available but you have
to download the WAIK to get it.
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...6D-15F3-4284-9123-679830D629F2&displaylang=en
For file based backups there's SyncToy
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...54-C975-4814-9649-CCE41AF06EB7&displaylang=en
There's a host of 3rd party applications that work in vista as well.
I know what you are saying but I don't think you've dug deep enough. Vista
has a pretty interface and at first glance looks dumber down for the masses.
If you dig I think you'll find some treasures
P
-Phil Clemence
Kerry Brown said:
They are making it more difficult for people to figure out how to do things
on their computers.
The organizational structure of a computer used to be very easy to
understand.
When I began, with Windows95, I quickly found out where my files went when I
saved them.
I figured out the folder arrangement and learned to make one of my own in
which I saved things.
The concept of "My Documents" is great, but they screwed it up by putting
things of their own in there.
If I have created no documents and I delete that folder, what happens?
If I decide I want to delete all the stuff in my user folder in Vista, what
happens?
What is the point of a user folder?
Well, people who are new don't know where to save things.
When I first saw it I was overjoyed ... Yeah! They are helping people
understand how to use this .. a place already logically set up for saving
files..
Then I saw what was in there.
It is a place to organize and save data for everything.
There is no way to know what programs put things in there or where they
might be put.
They tried to block access to the program data by limiting how it is
accessed.
They want users to know less and less about how it works, they should have
made their own folder.
Oh .. that IS their folder?
Who is ME? MY Documents?!
They took a simple directory of folders and turned it into a dangerous place
to look.
AND THEY SHOULD HAVE NAMED IT "00 My Documents" so it was topmost!
They have followed that same stupid first step down this road.
If you have any sense, you get what I mean.
If not, you will try to defend it by splitting hairs.
G
Guest
Thanks so much. I am certainly new to Vista. I'll keep digging and
appreciate the pointers! As I said. I like a lot of what I'm seeing so far.
I've seen several that say the backup tool, however, does not have options.
As I said in another post... what gets to me so much is that I know the
backup is already doing what I need. The wizards have to ultimately make
selections based on some criteria. All I want is a selection screen where I
can make my own criteria. It's a trivial request, really, so it still seems
a glaring omission that does indicate a preference for 'dumbing down' at the
expense of flexibility when I don't believe the choice is really necessary.
I REALLY appreciate the positive response. I look forward to following your
links!
Thanks!
appreciate the pointers! As I said. I like a lot of what I'm seeing so far.
I've seen several that say the backup tool, however, does not have options.
As I said in another post... what gets to me so much is that I know the
backup is already doing what I need. The wizards have to ultimately make
selections based on some criteria. All I want is a selection screen where I
can make my own criteria. It's a trivial request, really, so it still seems
a glaring omission that does indicate a preference for 'dumbing down' at the
expense of flexibility when I don't believe the choice is really necessary.
I REALLY appreciate the positive response. I look forward to following your
links!
Thanks!
G
Guest
I do get what you mean. Maybe MS has too much money to spend on too many
consultants?
Assuming complete nuetrality regarding general new features
in each version of windows for a moment. I, too, grow weary of the constant
changes regarding what goes where. It would help if I could see the
underlying value but I rarely do -- even for new users. I'm sure they're
trying to make things easier and better - but for this old programmer - it's
just another learning curve!
consultants?
Assuming complete nuetrality regarding general new featuresin each version of windows for a moment. I, too, grow weary of the constant
changes regarding what goes where. It would help if I could see the
underlying value but I rarely do -- even for new users. I'm sure they're
trying to make things easier and better - but for this old programmer - it's
just another learning curve!
A
Adam Albright
Then the people they picked at beta testers are a bunch of fu*cking
idiots. To confirm that just look at all the bugs and blunders still
in the released version. Actually you don't have to look further than
the "Start" button you use to turn off the computer to get an idea of
Microsoft's goofy design concepts. LOL!
J
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
Not any type of defense since none is needed.
The fact he feels forced when he is not has little to do with Windows
Vista or any operating system and almost everything to do with choices
he makes.
He simply made a choice and blames it on being forced.
Who or what is forcing him continues to be his secret.
But whatever it is, it is not an operating system.
The fact he feels forced when he is not has little to do with Windows
Vista or any operating system and almost everything to do with choices
he makes.
He simply made a choice and blames it on being forced.
Who or what is forcing him continues to be his secret.
But whatever it is, it is not an operating system.
J
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
"you think it's possible to run today's software and hardware on
Windows 3.1"
Absolutely not.
So it seems in this case, it is the software that drives the need and
not the operating system or even the program.
It is closer to what you need done and what products can meet that
need.
That is the driving force, what you need to do.
"MS is the only game in town"
For some but not all.
Whatever it is driving your dependence on software from a particular
source is closer to what is forcing you and that is not the operating
system.
"Perhaps my making a living is optional to you"
No and I never meant to imply that.
"Even a great product can get better."
Hopefully you did not get the impression I dispute that fact or that
Windows can be improved.
There is always room for improvement.
My point is no one is forced to use Windows.
Something else is driving that need.
Trace it back and it is probably rooted in the need someone had for
more in a program which drives the operating systems up as well as the
hardware up.
Rarely if ever is it the operating system that drives the need.
The operating system is just another item in the chain that increases
because of someone's needs.
Windows 3.1"
Absolutely not.
So it seems in this case, it is the software that drives the need and
not the operating system or even the program.
It is closer to what you need done and what products can meet that
need.
That is the driving force, what you need to do.
"MS is the only game in town"
For some but not all.
Whatever it is driving your dependence on software from a particular
source is closer to what is forcing you and that is not the operating
system.
"Perhaps my making a living is optional to you"
No and I never meant to imply that.
"Even a great product can get better."
Hopefully you did not get the impression I dispute that fact or that
Windows can be improved.
There is always room for improvement.
My point is no one is forced to use Windows.
Something else is driving that need.
Trace it back and it is probably rooted in the need someone had for
more in a program which drives the operating systems up as well as the
hardware up.
Rarely if ever is it the operating system that drives the need.
The operating system is just another item in the chain that increases
because of someone's needs.
R
rtk
Unbelievable. You outright tell them "please, don't choose MS or Vista, You
do have other choices".... and they label you a Vista defender.
I'm just surprised you reply to the (easy to identify) trolls at all, it's a
losing battle.
rtk
do have other choices".... and they label you a Vista defender.
I'm just surprised you reply to the (easy to identify) trolls at all, it's a
losing battle.
rtk
P
-Phil Clemence
Jupiter Jones said:
The fact that you don't acknowledge that there are times when a person might
be forced to use Vista makes me not trust your judgement.
And you can't imagine the possibility.
No one forces anyone to buy a personal copy ..
but there may be times when one is forced to use it
..... c'mon you can guess the secret.
YES! To keep a job!
There may be other times, but that one came to my mind immediately
I am shocked that a computer whiz wouldn't notice and consider the bold type
i used to give a clue to the secret (now below due to top-posting).
J
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
Phil;
"makes me not trust your judgement"
Completely your choice and not a concern of mine.
You really need to read what I wrote in the thread again.
Particularly my response to Pat about an hour and a half ago.
"makes me not trust your judgement"
Completely your choice and not a concern of mine.
You really need to read what I wrote in the thread again.
Particularly my response to Pat about an hour and a half ago.
G
Guest
No one forces me to eat, either. That does not mean I have any other viable
option. Of course there is no gun to my head to use Windows. There is also
no other viable option for me and a significant percentage of computer users.
Perhaps 'force' was a bad choice semantically, but that does not change the
inevitability of the event.
option. Of course there is no gun to my head to use Windows. There is also
no other viable option for me and a significant percentage of computer users.
Perhaps 'force' was a bad choice semantically, but that does not change the
inevitability of the event.
D
dennis@home
Pat Keller said:
This is an odd thread.
Lets see if I have it right..
you want to run an application that is Vista only and its Microsoft that is
forcing you to upgrade to vista?
Is this a Microsoft application?
M
McG.
Pat it does make me wonder what final "pep talk" at the big long table with
all the suits actually got the ball rolling for what Vista actually became.
There was a lot of talk about it for years. This end result, "Vista" was in
the works while XP was being developed. A lot of things changed, were
added, dropped and massaged into a smooth system. We got some interesting
'fallout' along the way. "Media Center" for example. I'm thinking this
means the actual notions that resulted in Vista today were being worked on
during Win 98 development some. M$ put a lot of time and effort into a
"dream product".
Vista is actually a good solid OS. It will not behave the same way on the
millions of variations of PC's it is run on daily. Nor with the even
greater diversity of users of those PC's.
The 'user' can be really smart, intelligently making choices that affect how
our system behaves and works for us. We 'Users' en mass are a mess! The
majority really have no tech savvy and do not want it. They want to just
use the system and get their desired result. In three days of using a new
laptop with Vista, I've come around from thinking Vista is crap to actually
respecting and *enjoying* working in the Vista environment. My total
experience with Vista until I bought this laptop, was helping my sister with
her new system that came with Vista preinstalled. She is NOT tech savvy at
ALL. I treated her system like it was running a glorified XP Home. My
bad! Now, after sitting down WITH a Vista system and working with it,
learning as I go, I see it in a much different way.
Pat, I'm running heavy duty 3D software on a lesser specced laptop just as
fast as the same software on a desktop that's much more powerful and has
twice the ram that is running XP Pro x64. That is a very pleasant
surprise. No, the laptop can't render raytraced images as fast, but it
does run the big software and run it very well.
I think it your problems with Access, for instance, will be solved with a
patch for Access. Not for the OS.
Respectfully,
McG.
all the suits actually got the ball rolling for what Vista actually became.
There was a lot of talk about it for years. This end result, "Vista" was in
the works while XP was being developed. A lot of things changed, were
added, dropped and massaged into a smooth system. We got some interesting
'fallout' along the way. "Media Center" for example. I'm thinking this
means the actual notions that resulted in Vista today were being worked on
during Win 98 development some. M$ put a lot of time and effort into a
"dream product".
Vista is actually a good solid OS. It will not behave the same way on the
millions of variations of PC's it is run on daily. Nor with the even
greater diversity of users of those PC's.
The 'user' can be really smart, intelligently making choices that affect how
our system behaves and works for us. We 'Users' en mass are a mess! The
majority really have no tech savvy and do not want it. They want to just
use the system and get their desired result. In three days of using a new
laptop with Vista, I've come around from thinking Vista is crap to actually
respecting and *enjoying* working in the Vista environment. My total
experience with Vista until I bought this laptop, was helping my sister with
her new system that came with Vista preinstalled. She is NOT tech savvy at
ALL. I treated her system like it was running a glorified XP Home. My
bad! Now, after sitting down WITH a Vista system and working with it,
learning as I go, I see it in a much different way.
Pat, I'm running heavy duty 3D software on a lesser specced laptop just as
fast as the same software on a desktop that's much more powerful and has
twice the ram that is running XP Pro x64. That is a very pleasant
surprise. No, the laptop can't render raytraced images as fast, but it
does run the big software and run it very well.
I think it your problems with Access, for instance, will be solved with a
patch for Access. Not for the OS.
Respectfully,
McG.
C
caver1
Pat Keller wrote: Even a
That is the the main problem with MS products. Who
is in control of your machine.
caver1
That is the the main problem with MS products. Who
is in control of your machine.
caver1
C
caver1
Pat said:
Ubuntu can be both. Yes for those who want a
daumded down system it has those capabilities.
Which can be good for the Linux noob to learn on.
It can at the same time be for the more geek ended
user depending on what you load.
This is where Linux has it over MS. You are in
control.
caver1