FP 2003 what features to use

[Bill Hunt]

I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2 months. Our
site was built last year using Netscape Composer using SSI for menus
and navigation bars and hand built templates.

Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which matters to our all
volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo running
Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I defined a manual
version control process that is cumbersome but allows changes to
backed out.

I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff) and can endure
crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My co-developer
stopped doing any changes because the process was too error-prone for
him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly decided that FP
2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly want to make
it possible for other people in the non-profit to create content.

Our server will not have FP extensions or any ODBC/ASP/IIS stuff.
WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier for me.

So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?

- shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative to SSI but it
appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include Page seems to be
a MS version of SSI.

- conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?

- automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when there have been
interlocking updates.

- check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone forgetting to
check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on clearing the
lock.

- publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read messages
describing problems with FTP as a link to the server. Are we better
just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP program?

- automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making thumbnails of bird
and flower pictures is a big problem for us. However, it sounds a bit
limited.

Any comments on these or other features would be appreciated.

The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS products. The
Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has enought detailed
info especially on using FP w/o FP server extensions.

Bill
http://www.wcosf.org/

 

[chris leeds]

using the dynamic web templates/ editable regions would be great for your
situation. the FrontPage include page feature is a save time function but
won't update all that well without the extensions (same for the dwt/
editable regions). You may want to look at a different host provider.
there are a lot more windows hosts than there used to be and the price is
often quite similar to Unix hosts.
HTH

--
The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
spam.
Please feel free to contact me here:
http://nedp.net/contact/
--

I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2 months. Our
site was built last year using Netscape Composer using SSI for menus
and navigation bars and hand built templates.

Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which matters to our all
volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo running
Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I defined a manual
version control process that is cumbersome but allows changes to
backed out.

I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff) and can endure
crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My co-developer
stopped doing any changes because the process was too error-prone for
him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly decided that FP
2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly want to make
it possible for other people in the non-profit to create content.

Our server will not have FP extensions or any ODBC/ASP/IIS stuff.
WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier for me.

So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?

- shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative to SSI but it
appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include Page seems to be
a MS version of SSI.

- conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?

- automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when there have been
interlocking updates.

- check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone forgetting to
check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on clearing the
lock.

- publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read messages
describing problems with FTP as a link to the server. Are we better
just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP program?

- automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making thumbnails of bird
and flower pictures is a big problem for us. However, it sounds a bit
limited.

Any comments on these or other features would be appreciated.

The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS products. The
Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has enought detailed
info especially on using FP w/o FP server extensions.

Bill
http://www.wcosf.org/

 

[E. T. Culling]

An even better question is: what FrontPages features should I not use and
which ones, such as the PhotoGallery component are too quirky to bother
with?
Concerning Photo Galleries:
http://www.eleanorstravels.com/PhotoGalleryPrograms/index.htm
For instance don't use:
1. Absolute positioning
2. the drawing tools
3. the image tool bar
and there are more. I wish someone would make a complete list.
See other comments in-line below
Eleanor

I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2 months. Our
site was built last year using Netscape Composer using SSI for menus
and navigation bars and hand built templates.

Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which matters to our all
volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo running
Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I defined a manual
version control process that is cumbersome but allows changes to
backed out.

I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff) and can endure
crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My co-developer
stopped doing any changes because the process was too error-prone for
him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly decided that FP
2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly want to make
it possible for other people in the non-profit to create content.

Our server will not have FP extensions or any ODBC/ASP/IIS stuff.
WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier for me.

So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?

- shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative to SSI but it
appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include Page seems to be
a MS version of SSI.

- conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?

- automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when there have been
interlocking updates.

- check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone forgetting to
check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on clearing the
lock.

- publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read messages
describing problems with FTP as a link to the server. Are we better
just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP program?

DON"T use a separate FTP program

 

[Stefan B Rusynko]

For the Features that require the FP SE See (FP 2003 uses the FP2002 SE)
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=281532

Shared borders (and Include Pages) don't require the FP SE on the server
- they are design time includes, not run time
The new Dynamic Web Templates are more powerful

Conflict detection?
Do you Mean Browser Compatibility Checking?

Synchronization requires the FP SE on the online host
Check In / Out requires the FP SE on the local or online host
- w/o the FP SE you are limited to FTP "publishing"
- 3rd party FTP is always more powerful than the FP FTP

Check out Behaviors, Code Snippets and Interactive Buttons
--




| I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2 months. Our
| site was built last year using Netscape Composer using SSI for menus
| and navigation bars and hand built templates.
|
| Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which matters to our all
| volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo running
| Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I defined a manual
| version control process that is cumbersome but allows changes to
| backed out.
|
| I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff) and can endure
| crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My co-developer
| stopped doing any changes because the process was too error-prone for
| him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly decided that FP
| 2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly want to make
| it possible for other people in the non-profit to create content.
|
| Our server will not have FP extensions or any ODBC/ASP/IIS stuff.
| WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier for me.
|
| So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?
|
| - shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative to SSI but it
| appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include Page seems to be
| a MS version of SSI.
|
| - conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?
|
| - automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when there have been
| interlocking updates.
|
| - check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone forgetting to
| check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on clearing the
| lock.
|
| - publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read messages
| describing problems with FTP as a link to the server. Are we better
| just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP program?
|
| - automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making thumbnails of bird
| and flower pictures is a big problem for us. However, it sounds a bit
| limited.
|
| Any comments on these or other features would be appreciated.
|
| The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS products. The
| Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has enought detailed
| info especially on using FP w/o FP server extensions.
|
| Bill
| http://www.wcosf.org/

 

[chris leeds]

Re: include page
Stefan,
If I change a page that's used as a FrontPage include and right click/
publish selected files, and publish just the include page it changes in all
the pages on the server web that it's included in.
Would it still work that way without the extensions? How could the server
web "know" to do this without the extensions?

--
The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
spam.
Please feel free to contact me here:
http://nedp.net/contact/
--

For the Features that require the FP SE See (FP 2003 uses the FP2002 SE)
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=281532

Shared borders (and Include Pages) don't require the FP SE on the server
- they are design time includes, not run time
The new Dynamic Web Templates are more powerful

Conflict detection?
Do you Mean Browser Compatibility Checking?

Synchronization requires the FP SE on the online host
Check In / Out requires the FP SE on the local or online host
- w/o the FP SE you are limited to FTP "publishing"
- 3rd party FTP is always more powerful than the FP FTP

Check out Behaviors, Code Snippets and Interactive Buttons
--




| I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2 months. Our
| site was built last year using Netscape Composer using SSI for menus
| and navigation bars and hand built templates.
|
| Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which matters to our all
| volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo running
| Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I defined a manual
| version control process that is cumbersome but allows changes to
| backed out.
|
| I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff) and can endure
| crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My co-developer
| stopped doing any changes because the process was too error-prone for
| him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly decided that FP
| 2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly want to make
| it possible for other people in the non-profit to create content.
|
| Our server will not have FP extensions or any ODBC/ASP/IIS stuff.
| WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier for me.
|
| So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?
|
| - shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative to SSI but it
| appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include Page seems to be
| a MS version of SSI.
|
| - conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?
|
| - automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when there have been
| interlocking updates.
|
| - check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone forgetting to
| check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on clearing the
| lock.
|
| - publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read messages
| describing problems with FTP as a link to the server. Are we better
| just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP program?
|
| - automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making thumbnails of bird
| and flower pictures is a big problem for us. However, it sounds a bit
| limited.
|
| Any comments on these or other features would be appreciated.
|
| The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS products. The
| Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has enought detailed
| info especially on using FP w/o FP server extensions.
|
| Bill
| http://www.wcosf.org/

 

[Stefan B Rusynko]

No
The Include is Design time only
- changes are saved to the files using it
- you need to publish all the affected files

--




| Re: include page
| Stefan,
| If I change a page that's used as a FrontPage include and right click/
| publish selected files, and publish just the include page it changes in all
| the pages on the server web that it's included in.
| Would it still work that way without the extensions? How could the server
| web "know" to do this without the extensions?
|
| --
| The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
| spam.
| Please feel free to contact me here:
| http://nedp.net/contact/
| --
|
|
| | > For the Features that require the FP SE See (FP 2003 uses the FP2002 SE)
| > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=281532
| >
| > Shared borders (and Include Pages) don't require the FP SE on the server
| > - they are design time includes, not run time
| > The new Dynamic Web Templates are more powerful
| >
| > Conflict detection?
| > Do you Mean Browser Compatibility Checking?
| >
| > Synchronization requires the FP SE on the online host
| > Check In / Out requires the FP SE on the local or online host
| > - w/o the FP SE you are limited to FTP "publishing"
| > - 3rd party FTP is always more powerful than the FP FTP
| >
| > Check out Behaviors, Code Snippets and Interactive Buttons
| > --
| >
| > _____________________________________________
| > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > _____________________________________________
| >
| >
| | > | I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2 months. Our
| > | site was built last year using Netscape Composer using SSI for menus
| > | and navigation bars and hand built templates.
| > |
| > | Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which matters to our all
| > | volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo running
| > | Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I defined a manual
| > | version control process that is cumbersome but allows changes to
| > | backed out.
| > |
| > | I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff) and can endure
| > | crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My co-developer
| > | stopped doing any changes because the process was too error-prone for
| > | him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly decided that FP
| > | 2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly want to make
| > | it possible for other people in the non-profit to create content.
| > |
| > | Our server will not have FP extensions or any ODBC/ASP/IIS stuff.
| > | WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier for me.
| > |
| > | So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?
| > |
| > | - shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative to SSI but it
| > | appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include Page seems to be
| > | a MS version of SSI.
| > |
| > | - conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?
| > |
| > | - automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when there have been
| > | interlocking updates.
| > |
| > | - check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone forgetting to
| > | check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on clearing the
| > | lock.
| > |
| > | - publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read messages
| > | describing problems with FTP as a link to the server. Are we better
| > | just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP program?
| > |
| > | - automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making thumbnails of bird
| > | and flower pictures is a big problem for us. However, it sounds a bit
| > | limited.
| > |
| > | Any comments on these or other features would be appreciated.
| > |
| > | The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS products. The
| > | Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has enought detailed
| > | info especially on using FP w/o FP server extensions.
| > |
| > | Bill
| > | http://www.wcosf.org/
| >
| >
|
|

 

[chris leeds]

I have noticed that say, if I change a menu that's included, and publish
just that menu page, all the pages it's included into are updated
automatically. I assumed the server knew and re-wrote the pages.


--
The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
spam.
Please feel free to contact me here:
http://nedp.net/contact/
--

No
The Include is Design time only
- changes are saved to the files using it
- you need to publish all the affected files

--




| Re: include page
| Stefan,
| If I change a page that's used as a FrontPage include and right click/
| publish selected files, and publish just the include page it changes in all
| the pages on the server web that it's included in.
| Would it still work that way without the extensions? How could the server
| web "know" to do this without the extensions?
|
| --
| The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
| spam.
| Please feel free to contact me here:
| http://nedp.net/contact/
| --
|
|
| | > For the Features that require the FP SE See (FP 2003 uses the FP2002 SE)
| > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=281532
| >
| > Shared borders (and Include Pages) don't require the FP SE on the server
| > - they are design time includes, not run time
| > The new Dynamic Web Templates are more powerful
| >
| > Conflict detection?
| > Do you Mean Browser Compatibility Checking?
| >
| > Synchronization requires the FP SE on the online host
| > Check In / Out requires the FP SE on the local or online host
| > - w/o the FP SE you are limited to FTP "publishing"
| > - 3rd party FTP is always more powerful than the FP FTP
| >
| > Check out Behaviors, Code Snippets and Interactive Buttons
| > --
| >
| > _____________________________________________
| > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > _____________________________________________
| >
| >
| | > | I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2 months. Our
| > | site was built last year using Netscape Composer using SSI for menus
| > | and navigation bars and hand built templates.
| > |
| > | Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which matters to our all
| > | volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo running
| > | Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I defined a manual
| > | version control process that is cumbersome but allows changes to
| > | backed out.
| > |
| > | I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff) and can endure
| > | crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My co-developer
| > | stopped doing any changes because the process was too error-prone for
| > | him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly decided that FP
| > | 2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly want to make
| > | it possible for other people in the non-profit to create content.
| > |
| > | Our server will not have FP extensions or any ODBC/ASP/IIS stuff.
| > | WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier for me.
| > |
| > | So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?
| > |
| > | - shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative to SSI but it
| > | appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include Page seems to be
| > | a MS version of SSI.
| > |
| > | - conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?
| > |
| > | - automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when there have been
| > | interlocking updates.
| > |
| > | - check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone forgetting to
| > | check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on clearing the
| > | lock.
| > |
| > | - publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read messages
| > | describing problems with FTP as a link to the server. Are we better
| > | just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP program?
| > |
| > | - automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making thumbnails of bird
| > | and flower pictures is a big problem for us. However, it sounds a bit
| > | limited.
| > |
| > | Any comments on these or other features would be appreciated.
| > |
| > | The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS products. The
| > | Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has enought detailed
| > | info especially on using FP w/o FP server extensions.
| > |
| > | Bill
| > | http://www.wcosf.org/
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Stefan B Rusynko]

Correct
When you save the include page, FP in the background is re-saving all the files affected w/ the new content, and updating the meta
data on those files to indicate they have changed (and need publishing)

--




| I have noticed that say, if I change a menu that's included, and publish
| just that menu page, all the pages it's included into are updated
| automatically. I assumed the server knew and re-wrote the pages.
|
|
| --
| The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
| spam.
| Please feel free to contact me here:
| http://nedp.net/contact/
| --
|
|
| | > No
| > The Include is Design time only
| > - changes are saved to the files using it
| > - you need to publish all the affected files
| >
| > --
| >
| > _____________________________________________
| > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > _____________________________________________
| >
| >
| | > | Re: include page
| > | Stefan,
| > | If I change a page that's used as a FrontPage include and right click/
| > | publish selected files, and publish just the include page it changes in
| all
| > | the pages on the server web that it's included in.
| > | Would it still work that way without the extensions? How could the
| server
| > | web "know" to do this without the extensions?
| > |
| > | --
| > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all
| the
| > | spam.
| > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | --
| > |
| > |
| > | | > | > For the Features that require the FP SE See (FP 2003 uses the FP2002
| SE)
| > | > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=281532
| > | >
| > | > Shared borders (and Include Pages) don't require the FP SE on the
| server
| > | > - they are design time includes, not run time
| > | > The new Dynamic Web Templates are more powerful
| > | >
| > | > Conflict detection?
| > | > Do you Mean Browser Compatibility Checking?
| > | >
| > | > Synchronization requires the FP SE on the online host
| > | > Check In / Out requires the FP SE on the local or online host
| > | > - w/o the FP SE you are limited to FTP "publishing"
| > | > - 3rd party FTP is always more powerful than the FP FTP
| > | >
| > | > Check out Behaviors, Code Snippets and Interactive Buttons
| > | > --
| > | >
| > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > _____________________________________________
| > | >
| > | >
| > | | > | > | I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2 months. Our
| > | > | site was built last year using Netscape Composer using SSI for menus
| > | > | and navigation bars and hand built templates.
| > | > |
| > | > | Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which matters to our
| all
| > | > | volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo running
| > | > | Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I defined a manual
| > | > | version control process that is cumbersome but allows changes to
| > | > | backed out.
| > | > |
| > | > | I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff) and can
| endure
| > | > | crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My co-developer
| > | > | stopped doing any changes because the process was too error-prone
| for
| > | > | him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly decided that
| FP
| > | > | 2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly want to
| make
| > | > | it possible for other people in the non-profit to create content.
| > | > |
| > | > | Our server will not have FP extensions or any ODBC/ASP/IIS stuff.
| > | > | WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier for me.
| > | > |
| > | > | So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?
| > | > |
| > | > | - shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative to SSI but
| it
| > | > | appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include Page seems to
| be
| > | > | a MS version of SSI.
| > | > |
| > | > | - conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?
| > | > |
| > | > | - automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when there have been
| > | > | interlocking updates.
| > | > |
| > | > | - check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone forgetting to
| > | > | check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on clearing the
| > | > | lock.
| > | > |
| > | > | - publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read messages
| > | > | describing problems with FTP as a link to the server. Are we better
| > | > | just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP program?
| > | > |
| > | > | - automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making thumbnails of bird
| > | > | and flower pictures is a big problem for us. However, it sounds a
| bit
| > | > | limited.
| > | > |
| > | > | Any comments on these or other features would be appreciated.
| > | > |
| > | > | The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS products. The
| > | > | Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has enought detailed
| > | > | info especially on using FP w/o FP server extensions.
| > | > |
| > | > | Bill
| > | > | http://www.wcosf.org/
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Ronx]

That's what I find, too.
However, if there are no server extensions every page affected by the
include would have to be uploaded.
--
Ron
Reply only to group - emails will be deleted unread.

I have noticed that say, if I change a menu that's included, and publish
just that menu page, all the pages it's included into are updated
automatically. I assumed the server knew and re-wrote the pages.


--
The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
spam.
Please feel free to contact me here:
http://nedp.net/contact/
--

No
The Include is Design time only
- changes are saved to the files using it
- you need to publish all the affected files

--




| Re: include page
| Stefan,
| If I change a page that's used as a FrontPage include and right click/
| publish selected files, and publish just the include page it changes

in

all
| the pages on the server web that it's included in.
| Would it still work that way without the extensions? How could the server
| web "know" to do this without the extensions?
|
| --
| The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of

all

the
| spam.
| Please feel free to contact me here:
| http://nedp.net/contact/
| --
|
|
| | > For the Features that require the FP SE See (FP 2003 uses the FP2002 SE)
| > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=281532
| >
| > Shared borders (and Include Pages) don't require the FP SE on the server
| > - they are design time includes, not run time
| > The new Dynamic Web Templates are more powerful
| >
| > Conflict detection?
| > Do you Mean Browser Compatibility Checking?
| >
| > Synchronization requires the FP SE on the online host
| > Check In / Out requires the FP SE on the local or online host
| > - w/o the FP SE you are limited to FTP "publishing"
| > - 3rd party FTP is always more powerful than the FP FTP
| >
| > Check out Behaviors, Code Snippets and Interactive Buttons
| > --
| >
| > _____________________________________________
| > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > _____________________________________________
| >
| >
| | > | I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2 months. Our
| > | site was built last year using Netscape Composer using SSI for menus
| > | and navigation bars and hand built templates.
| > |
| > | Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which matters to our all
| > | volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo running
| > | Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I defined a manual
| > | version control process that is cumbersome but allows changes to
| > | backed out.
| > |
| > | I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff) and can endure
| > | crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My co-developer
| > | stopped doing any changes because the process was too error-prone for
| > | him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly decided

that

FP
| > | 2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly want to make
| > | it possible for other people in the non-profit to create content.
| > |
| > | Our server will not have FP extensions or any ODBC/ASP/IIS stuff.
| > | WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier for me.
| > |
| > | So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?
| > |
| > | - shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative to SSI

but

it
| > | appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include Page seems to be
| > | a MS version of SSI.
| > |
| > | - conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?
| > |
| > | - automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when there have been
| > | interlocking updates.
| > |
| > | - check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone forgetting to
| > | check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on clearing the
| > | lock.
| > |
| > | - publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read messages
| > | describing problems with FTP as a link to the server. Are we better
| > | just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP program?
| > |
| > | - automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making thumbnails of bird
| > | and flower pictures is a big problem for us. However, it sounds a bit
| > | limited.
| > |
| > | Any comments on these or other features would be appreciated.
| > |
| > | The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS products. The
| > | Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has enought detailed
| > | info especially on using FP w/o FP server extensions.
| > |
| > | Bill
| > | http://www.wcosf.org/
| >
| >
|
|

 

[chris leeds]

maybe I'm mis-explaining what I think I'm seeing.
I'm not publishing all the pages, just the include. it seems that the
server is, for lack of a better phrase, "cascading" the include page into
all the other pages that use it. I'm sure I'm not publishing all the pages
because I'm using the "publish selected files", plus it's too quick to have
published all the pages.
Maybe I'm losing my mind. ;-)


--
The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
spam.
Please feel free to contact me here:
http://nedp.net/contact/
--

Correct
When you save the include page, FP in the background is re-saving all the

files affected w/ the new content, and updating the meta

data on those files to indicate they have changed (and need publishing)

--




| I have noticed that say, if I change a menu that's included, and publish
| just that menu page, all the pages it's included into are updated
| automatically. I assumed the server knew and re-wrote the pages.
|
|
| --
| The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
| spam.
| Please feel free to contact me here:
| http://nedp.net/contact/
| --
|
|
| | > No
| > The Include is Design time only
| > - changes are saved to the files using it
| > - you need to publish all the affected files
| >
| > --
| >
| > _____________________________________________
| > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > _____________________________________________
| >
| >
| | > | Re: include page
| > | Stefan,
| > | If I change a page that's used as a FrontPage include and right click/
| > | publish selected files, and publish just the include page it changes in
| all
| > | the pages on the server web that it's included in.
| > | Would it still work that way without the extensions? How could the
| server
| > | web "know" to do this without the extensions?
| > |
| > | --
| > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all
| the
| > | spam.
| > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | --
| > |
| > |
| > | | > | > For the Features that require the FP SE See (FP 2003 uses the FP2002
| SE)
| > | > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=281532
| > | >
| > | > Shared borders (and Include Pages) don't require the FP SE on the
| server
| > | > - they are design time includes, not run time
| > | > The new Dynamic Web Templates are more powerful
| > | >
| > | > Conflict detection?
| > | > Do you Mean Browser Compatibility Checking?
| > | >
| > | > Synchronization requires the FP SE on the online host
| > | > Check In / Out requires the FP SE on the local or online host
| > | > - w/o the FP SE you are limited to FTP "publishing"
| > | > - 3rd party FTP is always more powerful than the FP FTP
| > | >
| > | > Check out Behaviors, Code Snippets and Interactive Buttons
| > | > --
| > | >
| > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > _____________________________________________
| > | >
| > | >
| > | | > | > | I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2 months. Our
| > | > | site was built last year using Netscape Composer using SSI for menus
| > | > | and navigation bars and hand built templates.
| > | > |
| > | > | Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which matters to our
| all
| > | > | volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo running
| > | > | Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I defined a manual
| > | > | version control process that is cumbersome but allows changes to
| > | > | backed out.
| > | > |
| > | > | I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff) and can
| endure
| > | > | crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My co-developer
| > | > | stopped doing any changes because the process was too error-prone
| for
| > | > | him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly decided that
| FP
| > | > | 2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly want to
| make
| > | > | it possible for other people in the non-profit to create content.
| > | > |
| > | > | Our server will not have FP extensions or any ODBC/ASP/IIS stuff.
| > | > | WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier for me.
| > | > |
| > | > | So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?
| > | > |
| > | > | - shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative to SSI but
| it
| > | > | appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include Page seems to
| be
| > | > | a MS version of SSI.
| > | > |
| > | > | - conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?
| > | > |
| > | > | - automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when there have been
| > | > | interlocking updates.
| > | > |
| > | > | - check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone forgetting to
| > | > | check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on clearing the
| > | > | lock.
| > | > |
| > | > | - publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read messages
| > | > | describing problems with FTP as a link to the server. Are we better
| > | > | just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP program?
| > | > |
| > | > | - automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making thumbnails of bird
| > | > | and flower pictures is a big problem for us. However, it sounds a
| bit
| > | > | limited.
| > | > |
| > | > | Any comments on these or other features would be appreciated.
| > | > |
| > | > | The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS products. The
| > | > | Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has enought detailed
| > | > | info especially on using FP w/o FP server extensions.
| > | > |
| > | > | Bill
| > | > | http://www.wcosf.org/
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Jim Buyens]

Comments interspersed.

I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2 months. Our
site was built last year using Netscape Composer using SSI for menus
and navigation bars and hand built templates.

Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which matters to our all
volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo running
Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I defined a manual
version control process that is cumbersome but allows changes to
backed out.

I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff) and can endure
crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My co-developer
stopped doing any changes because the process was too error-prone for
him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly decided that FP
2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly want to make
it possible for other people in the non-profit to create content.

Our server will not have FP extensions or any ODBC/ASP/IIS stuff.
WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier for me.

So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?

- shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative to SSI but it
appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include Page seems to be
a MS version of SSI.

Both of these work by replicating content at design time (not browse
time). As a result, they work find on server's that don't have the
server extensions installed. However, if you update a Shared Borders
or Include Page segment that appears in 100 pages, you have to upload
all 100 pages.

- conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?

It's a good feature, but people have trouble understanding how to
react to it. The proper response is to examine both files (source and
destination) and then merge them or decide which version to keep. But
the one-word message "Conflict" doesn't seem to trigger this response.

I've come across some cases where FrontPage falsely detects conflicts
because the development Web site and the remote FTP site are in
different time zones.

- automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when there have been
interlocking updates.

Exactly. Never shoot blind.

- check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone forgetting to
check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on clearing the
lock.

FrontPage includes so-called "lightweight" source control, and
administrative overrides are one place that's deserves this
designation. In other words, there *are* no administrative overrides.

If you turn source control off and on, that clears all checkouts in
the current Web site. If you need to get more granular than that, you
need to monkey around with bits in FrontPage's hidden, internal
directories.

For more robust source control, install Visual Source Safe on the
development server.

- publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read messages
describing problems with FTP as a link to the server. Are we better
just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP program?

In general, no, let FrontPage do you publishing. The reason is that
you may not know about all the files FrontPage updates as you work,
and if you forget to upload those files, something won't work.

- automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making thumbnails of bird
and flower pictures is a big problem for us. However, it sounds a bit
limited.

Limited how?

In any event, stand-along graphics programs will always beat the
picture tools that come with FrontPage.

Any comments on these or other features would be appreciated.

The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS products. The
Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has enought detailed
info especially on using FP w/o FP server extensions.

Bill
http://www.wcosf.org/

Stefan B Rusynko has already posted a link on features to use/avoid if
you don't have the server extensions.

Unfortunately, it's not possible to publish customized versions of a
book this size for each different development environment. However, I
do try to provide server and browser compatibility information in the
text for any features where it makes a difference.

Are you sure you don't want to look around for full-featured Windows
hosting? For some places to look, jump to the bottom of this article:

What to Ask a Prospective Hosting Service
http://www.interlacken.com/winnt/tips/tipshow.aspx?tip=9

Jim Buyens
Microsoft FrontPage MVP
http://www.interlacken.com
Author of:
*----------------------------------------------------
|\---------------------------------------------------
|| Microsoft Office FrontPage 2003 Inside Out
||---------------------------------------------------
|| Web Database Development Step by Step .NET Edition
|| Microsoft FrontPage Version 2002 Inside Out
|| Faster Smarter Beginning Programming
|| (All from Microsoft Press)
|/---------------------------------------------------
*----------------------------------------------------

 

[Steve Easton]

Chris,
Trust me, they are all being published. It's invisible.
You can also simply save the include when done and then select publish
and the same thing happens.


--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed..................
...............................with a computer

maybe I'm mis-explaining what I think I'm seeing.
I'm not publishing all the pages, just the include. it seems that the
server is, for lack of a better phrase, "cascading" the include page into
all the other pages that use it. I'm sure I'm not publishing all the pages
because I'm using the "publish selected files", plus it's too quick to have
published all the pages.
Maybe I'm losing my mind. ;-)


--
The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
spam.
Please feel free to contact me here:
http://nedp.net/contact/
--

Correct
When you save the include page, FP in the background is re-saving all the

files affected w/ the new content, and updating the meta

data on those files to indicate they have changed (and need publishing)

--




| I have noticed that say, if I change a menu that's included, and publish
| just that menu page, all the pages it's included into are updated
| automatically. I assumed the server knew and re-wrote the pages.
|
|
| --
| The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
| spam.
| Please feel free to contact me here:
| http://nedp.net/contact/
| --
|
|
| | > No
| > The Include is Design time only
| > - changes are saved to the files using it
| > - you need to publish all the affected files
| >
| > --
| >
| > _____________________________________________
| > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > _____________________________________________
| >
| >
| | > | Re: include page
| > | Stefan,
| > | If I change a page that's used as a FrontPage include and right click/
| > | publish selected files, and publish just the include page it changes in
| all
| > | the pages on the server web that it's included in.
| > | Would it still work that way without the extensions? How could the
| server
| > | web "know" to do this without the extensions?
| > |
| > | --
| > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all
| the
| > | spam.
| > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | --
| > |
| > |
| > | | > | > For the Features that require the FP SE See (FP 2003 uses the FP2002
| SE)
| > | > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=281532
| > | >
| > | > Shared borders (and Include Pages) don't require the FP SE on the
| server
| > | > - they are design time includes, not run time
| > | > The new Dynamic Web Templates are more powerful
| > | >
| > | > Conflict detection?
| > | > Do you Mean Browser Compatibility Checking?
| > | >
| > | > Synchronization requires the FP SE on the online host
| > | > Check In / Out requires the FP SE on the local or online host
| > | > - w/o the FP SE you are limited to FTP "publishing"
| > | > - 3rd party FTP is always more powerful than the FP FTP
| > | >
| > | > Check out Behaviors, Code Snippets and Interactive Buttons
| > | > --
| > | >
| > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > _____________________________________________
| > | >
| > | >
| > | | > | > | I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2 months. Our
| > | > | site was built last year using Netscape Composer using SSI for menus
| > | > | and navigation bars and hand built templates.
| > | > |
| > | > | Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which matters to our
| all
| > | > | volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo running
| > | > | Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I defined a manual
| > | > | version control process that is cumbersome but allows changes to
| > | > | backed out.
| > | > |
| > | > | I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff) and can
| endure
| > | > | crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My co-developer
| > | > | stopped doing any changes because the process was too error-prone
| for
| > | > | him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly decided that
| FP
| > | > | 2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly want to
| make
| > | > | it possible for other people in the non-profit to create content.
| > | > |
| > | > | Our server will not have FP extensions or any ODBC/ASP/IIS stuff.
| > | > | WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier for me.
| > | > |
| > | > | So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?
| > | > |
| > | > | - shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative to SSI but
| it
| > | > | appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include Page seems to
| be
| > | > | a MS version of SSI.
| > | > |
| > | > | - conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?
| > | > |
| > | > | - automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when there have been
| > | > | interlocking updates.
| > | > |
| > | > | - check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone forgetting to
| > | > | check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on clearing the
| > | > | lock.
| > | > |
| > | > | - publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read messages
| > | > | describing problems with FTP as a link to the server. Are we better
| > | > | just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP program?
| > | > |
| > | > | - automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making thumbnails of bird
| > | > | and flower pictures is a big problem for us. However, it sounds a
| bit
| > | > | limited.
| > | > |
| > | > | Any comments on these or other features would be appreciated.
| > | > |
| > | > | The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS products. The
| > | > | Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has enought detailed
| > | > | info especially on using FP w/o FP server extensions.
| > | > |
| > | > | Bill
| > | > | http://www.wcosf.org/
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|

 

[chris leeds]

it's not possible that 100 updated pages are getting published. the server
_must_ be updating the pages that require the include page. believe me, I'd
notice the difference between one page at 3 or 4 seconds and 100. I'm no
guru but I'd notice that. ;-)

--
The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
spam.
Please feel free to contact me here:
http://nedp.net/contact/
--

Chris,
Trust me, they are all being published. It's invisible.
You can also simply save the include when done and then select publish
and the same thing happens.


--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed..................
..............................with a computer

maybe I'm mis-explaining what I think I'm seeing.
I'm not publishing all the pages, just the include. it seems that the
server is, for lack of a better phrase, "cascading" the include page into
all the other pages that use it. I'm sure I'm not publishing all the pages
because I'm using the "publish selected files", plus it's too quick to have
published all the pages.
Maybe I'm losing my mind. ;-)


--
The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
spam.
Please feel free to contact me here:
http://nedp.net/contact/
--

Correct
When you save the include page, FP in the background is re-saving all

the
files affected w/ the new content, and updating the meta

data on those files to indicate they have changed (and need publishing)

--




| I have noticed that say, if I change a menu that's included, and publish
| just that menu page, all the pages it's included into are updated
| automatically. I assumed the server knew and re-wrote the pages.
|
|
| --
| The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of

all
the

| spam.
| Please feel free to contact me here:
| http://nedp.net/contact/
| --
|
|
| | > No
| > The Include is Design time only
| > - changes are saved to the files using it
| > - you need to publish all the affected files
| >
| > --
| >
| > _____________________________________________
| > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > _____________________________________________
| >
| >
| | > | Re: include page
| > | Stefan,
| > | If I change a page that's used as a FrontPage include and right click/
| > | publish selected files, and publish just the include page it

changes
in

| all
| > | the pages on the server web that it's included in.
| > | Would it still work that way without the extensions? How could the
| server
| > | web "know" to do this without the extensions?
| > |
| > | --
| > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got

tired of
all

| the
| > | spam.
| > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | --
| > |
| > |
| > | | > | > For the Features that require the FP SE See (FP 2003 uses the FP2002
| SE)
| > | > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=281532
| > | >
| > | > Shared borders (and Include Pages) don't require the FP SE on the
| server
| > | > - they are design time includes, not run time
| > | > The new Dynamic Web Templates are more powerful
| > | >
| > | > Conflict detection?
| > | > Do you Mean Browser Compatibility Checking?
| > | >
| > | > Synchronization requires the FP SE on the online host
| > | > Check In / Out requires the FP SE on the local or online host
| > | > - w/o the FP SE you are limited to FTP "publishing"
| > | > - 3rd party FTP is always more powerful than the FP FTP
| > | >
| > | > Check out Behaviors, Code Snippets and Interactive Buttons
| > | > --
| > | >
| > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > _____________________________________________
| > | >
| > | >
| > | | > | > | I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2

months.
Our

| > | > | site was built last year using Netscape Composer using SSI

for
menus

| > | > | and navigation bars and hand built templates.
| > | > |
| > | > | Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which matters

to
our

| all
| > | > | volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo running
| > | > | Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I defined a manual
| > | > | version control process that is cumbersome but allows changes to
| > | > | backed out.
| > | > |
| > | > | I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff) and can
| endure
| > | > | crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My co-developer
| > | > | stopped doing any changes because the process was too error-prone
| for
| > | > | him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly

decided
that

| FP
| > | > | 2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly want to
| make
| > | > | it possible for other people in the non-profit to create content.
| > | > |
| > | > | Our server will not have FP extensions or any ODBC/ASP/IIS stuff.
| > | > | WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier for me.
| > | > |
| > | > | So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?
| > | > |
| > | > | - shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative to

SSI
but

| it
| > | > | appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include Page

seems
to

| be
| > | > | a MS version of SSI.
| > | > |
| > | > | - conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?
| > | > |
| > | > | - automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when there

have
been

| > | > | interlocking updates.
| > | > |
| > | > | - check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone forgetting to
| > | > | check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on

clearing
the

| > | > | lock.
| > | > |
| > | > | - publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read messages
| > | > | describing problems with FTP as a link to the server. Are

we
better

| > | > | just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP program?
| > | > |
| > | > | - automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making thumbnails

of
bird

| > | > | and flower pictures is a big problem for us. However, it

sounds
a

| bit
| > | > | limited.
| > | > |
| > | > | Any comments on these or other features would be appreciated.
| > | > |
| > | > | The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS

products.
The

| > | > | Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has enought detailed
| > | > | info especially on using FP w/o FP server extensions.
| > | > |
| > | > | Bill
| > | > | http://www.wcosf.org/
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Stefan B Rusynko]

Might be that since FP2003 does open access to the site (FP SE) when you publish (to get the meta data from the online site), the
publishing event causes a recalculate hyperlinks on the server side site, which does update (resave) pages using the includes
If that's the case, (and all 100 of your pages change content & time/dates), then that's an improvement in FP 2003 I was not aware
of

Try it on 2 distinct different days or times and compare your published sites file dates (and online in browser) to see if the
changes really propagated

--




| it's not possible that 100 updated pages are getting published. the server
| _must_ be updating the pages that require the include page. believe me, I'd
| notice the difference between one page at 3 or 4 seconds and 100. I'm no
| guru but I'd notice that. ;-)
|
| --
| The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
| spam.
| Please feel free to contact me here:
| http://nedp.net/contact/
| --
|
|
| | > Chris,
| > Trust me, they are all being published. It's invisible.
| > You can also simply save the include when done and then select publish
| > and the same thing happens.
| >
| >
| > --
| > Steve Easton
| > Microsoft MVP FrontPage
| > 95isalive
| > This site is best viewed..................
| > ..............................with a computer
| >
| >
| > | > > maybe I'm mis-explaining what I think I'm seeing.
| > > I'm not publishing all the pages, just the include. it seems that the
| > > server is, for lack of a better phrase, "cascading" the include page
| into
| > > all the other pages that use it. I'm sure I'm not publishing all the
| pages
| > > because I'm using the "publish selected files", plus it's too quick to
| have
| > > published all the pages.
| > > Maybe I'm losing my mind. ;-)
| > >
| > >
| > > --
| > > The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all
| the
| > > spam.
| > > Please feel free to contact me here:
| > > http://nedp.net/contact/
| > > --
| > >
| > >
| > > | > > > Correct
| > > > When you save the include page, FP in the background is re-saving all
| the
| > > files affected w/ the new content, and updating the meta
| > > > data on those files to indicate they have changed (and need
| publishing)
| > > >
| > > > --
| > > >
| > > > _____________________________________________
| > > > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > > > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > > > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > > > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > > > _____________________________________________
| > > >
| > > >
| > > | > > > | I have noticed that say, if I change a menu that's included, and
| publish
| > > > | just that menu page, all the pages it's included into are updated
| > > > | automatically. I assumed the server knew and re-wrote the pages.
| > > > |
| > > > |
| > > > | --
| > > > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of
| all
| > > the
| > > > | spam.
| > > > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > > > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > > > | --
| > > > |
| > > > |
| > > > | | > > > | > No
| > > > | > The Include is Design time only
| > > > | > - changes are saved to the files using it
| > > > | > - you need to publish all the affected files
| > > > | >
| > > > | > --
| > > > | >
| > > > | > _____________________________________________
| > > > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > > > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > > > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > > > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > > > | > _____________________________________________
| > > > | >
| > > > | >
| > > > | | > > > | > | Re: include page
| > > > | > | Stefan,
| > > > | > | If I change a page that's used as a FrontPage include and right
| > > click/
| > > > | > | publish selected files, and publish just the include page it
| changes
| > > in
| > > > | all
| > > > | > | the pages on the server web that it's included in.
| > > > | > | Would it still work that way without the extensions? How could
| the
| > > > | server
| > > > | > | web "know" to do this without the extensions?
| > > > | > |
| > > > | > | --
| > > > | > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got
| tired of
| > > all
| > > > | the
| > > > | > | spam.
| > > > | > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > > > | > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > > > | > | --
| > > > | > |
| > > > | > |
| > > > | > | | > > > | > | > For the Features that require the FP SE See (FP 2003 uses the
| > > FP2002
| > > > | SE)
| > > > | > | > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=281532
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > | > Shared borders (and Include Pages) don't require the FP SE on
| the
| > > > | server
| > > > | > | > - they are design time includes, not run time
| > > > | > | > The new Dynamic Web Templates are more powerful
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > | > Conflict detection?
| > > > | > | > Do you Mean Browser Compatibility Checking?
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > | > Synchronization requires the FP SE on the online host
| > > > | > | > Check In / Out requires the FP SE on the local or online host
| > > > | > | > - w/o the FP SE you are limited to FTP "publishing"
| > > > | > | > - 3rd party FTP is always more powerful than the FP FTP
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > | > Check out Behaviors, Code Snippets and Interactive Buttons
| > > > | > | > --
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > | > _____________________________________________
| > > > | > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > > > | > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > > > | > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > > > | > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > > > | > | > _____________________________________________
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > | | > > > | > | > | I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2
| months.
| > > Our
| > > > | > | > | site was built last year using Netscape Composer using SSI
| for
| > > menus
| > > > | > | > | and navigation bars and hand built templates.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which matters
| to
| > > our
| > > > | all
| > > > | > | > | volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo
| running
| > > > | > | > | Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I defined a
| > > manual
| > > > | > | > | version control process that is cumbersome but allows
| changes to
| > > > | > | > | backed out.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff) and
| can
| > > > | endure
| > > > | > | > | crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My
| co-developer
| > > > | > | > | stopped doing any changes because the process was too
| > > error-prone
| > > > | for
| > > > | > | > | him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly
| decided
| > > that
| > > > | FP
| > > > | > | > | 2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly
| want to
| > > > | make
| > > > | > | > | it possible for other people in the non-profit to create
| > > content.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | Our server will not have FP extensions or any ODBC/ASP/IIS
| > > stuff.
| > > > | > | > | WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier for
| me.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | - shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative to
| SSI
| > > but
| > > > | it
| > > > | > | > | appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include Page
| seems
| > > to
| > > > | be
| > > > | > | > | a MS version of SSI.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | - conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | - automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when there
| have
| > > been
| > > > | > | > | interlocking updates.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | - check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone
| > > forgetting to
| > > > | > | > | check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on
| clearing
| > > the
| > > > | > | > | lock.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | - publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read
| messages
| > > > | > | > | describing problems with FTP as a link to the server. Are
| we
| > > better
| > > > | > | > | just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP
| program?
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | - automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making thumbnails
| of
| > > bird
| > > > | > | > | and flower pictures is a big problem for us. However, it
| sounds
| > > a
| > > > | bit
| > > > | > | > | limited.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | Any comments on these or other features would be
| appreciated.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS
| products.
| > > The
| > > > | > | > | Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has enought
| > > detailed
| > > > | > | > | info especially on using FP w/o FP server extensions.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | Bill
| > > > | > | > | http://www.wcosf.org/
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > |
| > > > | > |
| > > > | >
| > > > | >
| > > > |
| > > > |
| > > >
| > > >
| > >
| > >
| >
| >
|
|

 

[chris leeds]

this behavior is being seen with FrontPage 2002.

--
The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
spam.
Please feel free to contact me here:
http://nedp.net/contact/
--

Might be that since FP2003 does open access to the site (FP SE) when you

publish (to get the meta data from the online site), the

publishing event causes a recalculate hyperlinks on the server side site,

which does update (resave) pages using the includes

If that's the case, (and all 100 of your pages change content &

time/dates), then that's an improvement in FP 2003 I was not aware

of

Try it on 2 distinct different days or times and compare your published

sites file dates (and online in browser) to see if the

changes really propagated

--




| it's not possible that 100 updated pages are getting published. the server
| _must_ be updating the pages that require the include page. believe me, I'd
| notice the difference between one page at 3 or 4 seconds and 100. I'm no
| guru but I'd notice that. ;-)
|
| --
| The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
| spam.
| Please feel free to contact me here:
| http://nedp.net/contact/
| --
|
|
| | > Chris,
| > Trust me, they are all being published. It's invisible.
| > You can also simply save the include when done and then select publish
| > and the same thing happens.
| >
| >
| > --
| > Steve Easton
| > Microsoft MVP FrontPage
| > 95isalive
| > This site is best viewed..................
| > ..............................with a computer
| >
| >
| > | > > maybe I'm mis-explaining what I think I'm seeing.
| > > I'm not publishing all the pages, just the include. it seems that the
| > > server is, for lack of a better phrase, "cascading" the include page
| into
| > > all the other pages that use it. I'm sure I'm not publishing all the
| pages
| > > because I'm using the "publish selected files", plus it's too quick to
| have
| > > published all the pages.
| > > Maybe I'm losing my mind. ;-)
| > >
| > >
| > > --
| > > The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all
| the
| > > spam.
| > > Please feel free to contact me here:
| > > http://nedp.net/contact/
| > > --
| > >
| > >
| > > | > > > Correct
| > > > When you save the include page, FP in the background is re-saving all
| the
| > > files affected w/ the new content, and updating the meta
| > > > data on those files to indicate they have changed (and need
| publishing)
| > > >
| > > > --
| > > >
| > > > _____________________________________________
| > > > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > > > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > > > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > > > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > > > _____________________________________________
| > > >
| > > >
| > > | > > > | I have noticed that say, if I change a menu that's included, and
| publish
| > > > | just that menu page, all the pages it's included into are updated
| > > > | automatically. I assumed the server knew and re-wrote the pages.
| > > > |
| > > > |
| > > > | --
| > > > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of
| all
| > > the
| > > > | spam.
| > > > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > > > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > > > | --
| > > > |
| > > > |
| > > > | | > > > | > No
| > > > | > The Include is Design time only
| > > > | > - changes are saved to the files using it
| > > > | > - you need to publish all the affected files
| > > > | >
| > > > | > --
| > > > | >
| > > > | > _____________________________________________
| > > > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > > > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > > > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > > > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > > > | > _____________________________________________
| > > > | >
| > > > | >
| > > > | | > > > | > | Re: include page
| > > > | > | Stefan,
| > > > | > | If I change a page that's used as a FrontPage include and right
| > > click/
| > > > | > | publish selected files, and publish just the include page it
| changes
| > > in
| > > > | all
| > > > | > | the pages on the server web that it's included in.
| > > > | > | Would it still work that way without the extensions? How could
| the
| > > > | server
| > > > | > | web "know" to do this without the extensions?
| > > > | > |
| > > > | > | --
| > > > | > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got
| tired of
| > > all
| > > > | the
| > > > | > | spam.
| > > > | > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > > > | > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > > > | > | --
| > > > | > |
| > > > | > |
| > > > | > | | > > > | > | > For the Features that require the FP SE See (FP 2003 uses the
| > > FP2002
| > > > | SE)
| > > > | > | > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=281532
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > | > Shared borders (and Include Pages) don't require the FP SE on
| the
| > > > | server
| > > > | > | > - they are design time includes, not run time
| > > > | > | > The new Dynamic Web Templates are more powerful
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > | > Conflict detection?
| > > > | > | > Do you Mean Browser Compatibility Checking?
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > | > Synchronization requires the FP SE on the online host
| > > > | > | > Check In / Out requires the FP SE on the local or online host
| > > > | > | > - w/o the FP SE you are limited to FTP "publishing"
| > > > | > | > - 3rd party FTP is always more powerful than the FP FTP
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > | > Check out Behaviors, Code Snippets and Interactive Buttons
| > > > | > | > --
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > | > _____________________________________________
| > > > | > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > > > | > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > > > | > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > > > | > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > > > | > | > _____________________________________________
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > | | > > > | > | > | I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2
| months.
| > > Our
| > > > | > | > | site was built last year using Netscape Composer using SSI
| for
| > > menus
| > > > | > | > | and navigation bars and hand built templates.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which matters
| to
| > > our
| > > > | all
| > > > | > | > | volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo
| running
| > > > | > | > | Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I defined a
| > > manual
| > > > | > | > | version control process that is cumbersome but allows
| changes to
| > > > | > | > | backed out.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff) and
| can
| > > > | endure
| > > > | > | > | crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My
| co-developer
| > > > | > | > | stopped doing any changes because the process was too
| > > error-prone
| > > > | for
| > > > | > | > | him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly
| decided
| > > that
| > > > | FP
| > > > | > | > | 2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly
| want to
| > > > | make
| > > > | > | > | it possible for other people in the non-profit to create
| > > content.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | Our server will not have FP extensions or any ODBC/ASP/IIS
| > > stuff.
| > > > | > | > | WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier for
| me.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | - shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative to
| SSI
| > > but
| > > > | it
| > > > | > | > | appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include Page
| seems
| > > to
| > > > | be
| > > > | > | > | a MS version of SSI.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | - conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | - automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when there
| have
| > > been
| > > > | > | > | interlocking updates.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | - check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone
| > > forgetting to
| > > > | > | > | check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on
| clearing
| > > the
| > > > | > | > | lock.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | - publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read
| messages
| > > > | > | > | describing problems with FTP as a link to the server. Are
| we
| > > better
| > > > | > | > | just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP
| program?
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | - automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making thumbnails
| of
| > > bird
| > > > | > | > | and flower pictures is a big problem for us. However, it
| sounds
| > > a
| > > > | bit
| > > > | > | > | limited.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | Any comments on these or other features would be
| appreciated.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS
| products.
| > > The
| > > > | > | > | Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has enought
| > > detailed
| > > > | > | > | info especially on using FP w/o FP server extensions.
| > > > | > | > |
| > > > | > | > | Bill
| > > > | > | > | http://www.wcosf.org/
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > | >
| > > > | > |
| > > > | > |
| > > > | >
| > > > | >
| > > > |
| > > > |
| > > >
| > > >
| > >
| > >
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Jay Levitt]

I've come across some cases where FrontPage falsely detects conflicts
because the development Web site and the remote FTP site are in
different time zones.

I ran into this on my own system - even though the server was in the
same house (and therefore time zone), my FTP daemon defaulted to
reporting times in GMT, and FrontPage was expecting them in EST. I had
to reconfigure the FTP server to get FP2003 to stop reporting conflicts.

 

[Stefan B Rusynko]

Your right - does it in FP2002 and FP2003
But I guess it is makes sense
What FP is doing is running a recalculate hyperlinks after any publish event (this includes a single page publish of an include page
file) to update the server side FP META data
- that forces an update of "indexes" which means the FP SE on the server are opening & re-saving the content of all affected pages
right after the "upload" (not changing that affected file's date/time)

That's an interesting short cut, but it could be dangerous if somehow your include page html is broken (malformed table) and the
resultant pages using it are broken and can't display at all

On a non FP SE site w/ FTP it would not be able to do that, so the changes would not propagate to the affected pages

--




| this behavior is being seen with FrontPage 2002.
|
| --
| The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
| spam.
| Please feel free to contact me here:
| http://nedp.net/contact/
| --
|
|
| | > Might be that since FP2003 does open access to the site (FP SE) when you
| publish (to get the meta data from the online site), the
| > publishing event causes a recalculate hyperlinks on the server side site,
| which does update (resave) pages using the includes
| > If that's the case, (and all 100 of your pages change content &
| time/dates), then that's an improvement in FP 2003 I was not aware
| > of
| >
| > Try it on 2 distinct different days or times and compare your published
| sites file dates (and online in browser) to see if the
| > changes really propagated
| >
| > --
| >
| > _____________________________________________
| > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > _____________________________________________
| >
| >
| | > | it's not possible that 100 updated pages are getting published. the
| server
| > | _must_ be updating the pages that require the include page. believe me,
| I'd
| > | notice the difference between one page at 3 or 4 seconds and 100. I'm
| no
| > | guru but I'd notice that. ;-)
| > |
| > | --
| > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all
| the
| > | spam.
| > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | --
| > |
| > |
| > | | > | > Chris,
| > | > Trust me, they are all being published. It's invisible.
| > | > You can also simply save the include when done and then select publish
| > | > and the same thing happens.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > --
| > | > Steve Easton
| > | > Microsoft MVP FrontPage
| > | > 95isalive
| > | > This site is best viewed..................
| > | > ..............................with a computer
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > | > | > > maybe I'm mis-explaining what I think I'm seeing.
| > | > > I'm not publishing all the pages, just the include. it seems that
| the
| > | > > server is, for lack of a better phrase, "cascading" the include page
| > | into
| > | > > all the other pages that use it. I'm sure I'm not publishing all
| the
| > | pages
| > | > > because I'm using the "publish selected files", plus it's too quick
| to
| > | have
| > | > > published all the pages.
| > | > > Maybe I'm losing my mind. ;-)
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > > --
| > | > > The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of
| all
| > | the
| > | > > spam.
| > | > > Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | > > http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | > > --
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > > | > | > > > Correct
| > | > > > When you save the include page, FP in the background is re-saving
| all
| > | the
| > | > > files affected w/ the new content, and updating the meta
| > | > > > data on those files to indicate they have changed (and need
| > | publishing)
| > | > > >
| > | > > > --
| > | > > >
| > | > > > _____________________________________________
| > | > > > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > | > > > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > | > > > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > > > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > > > _____________________________________________
| > | > > >
| > | > > >
| > | > > | > | > > > | I have noticed that say, if I change a menu that's included, and
| > | publish
| > | > > > | just that menu page, all the pages it's included into are
| updated
| > | > > > | automatically. I assumed the server knew and re-wrote the
| pages.
| > | > > > |
| > | > > > |
| > | > > > | --
| > | > > > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got
| tired of
| > | all
| > | > > the
| > | > > > | spam.
| > | > > > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | > > > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | > > > | --
| > | > > > |
| > | > > > |
| > | > > > | | > | > > > | > No
| > | > > > | > The Include is Design time only
| > | > > > | > - changes are saved to the files using it
| > | > > > | > - you need to publish all the affected files
| > | > > > | >
| > | > > > | > --
| > | > > > | >
| > | > > > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > > > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > | > > > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > | > > > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > > > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > > > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > > > | >
| > | > > > | >
| > | > > > | | > | > > > | > | Re: include page
| > | > > > | > | Stefan,
| > | > > > | > | If I change a page that's used as a FrontPage include and
| right
| > | > > click/
| > | > > > | > | publish selected files, and publish just the include page it
| > | changes
| > | > > in
| > | > > > | all
| > | > > > | > | the pages on the server web that it's included in.
| > | > > > | > | Would it still work that way without the extensions? How
| could
| > | the
| > | > > > | server
| > | > > > | > | web "know" to do this without the extensions?
| > | > > > | > |
| > | > > > | > | --
| > | > > > | > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got
| > | tired of
| > | > > all
| > | > > > | the
| > | > > > | > | spam.
| > | > > > | > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | > > > | > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | > > > | > | --
| > | > > > | > |
| > | > > > | > |
| > | > > > | > | | > | > > > | > | > For the Features that require the FP SE See (FP 2003 uses
| the
| > | > > FP2002
| > | > > > | SE)
| > | > > > | > | > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=281532
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > | > Shared borders (and Include Pages) don't require the FP SE
| on
| > | the
| > | > > > | server
| > | > > > | > | > - they are design time includes, not run time
| > | > > > | > | > The new Dynamic Web Templates are more powerful
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > | > Conflict detection?
| > | > > > | > | > Do you Mean Browser Compatibility Checking?
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > | > Synchronization requires the FP SE on the online host
| > | > > > | > | > Check In / Out requires the FP SE on the local or online
| host
| > | > > > | > | > - w/o the FP SE you are limited to FTP "publishing"
| > | > > > | > | > - 3rd party FTP is always more powerful than the FP FTP
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > | > Check out Behaviors, Code Snippets and Interactive Buttons
| > | > > > | > | > --
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > > > | > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > | > > > | > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > | > > > | > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > > > | > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > > > | > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > | | > | > > > | > | > | I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2
| > | months.
| > | > > Our
| > | > > > | > | > | site was built last year using Netscape Composer using
| SSI
| > | for
| > | > > menus
| > | > > > | > | > | and navigation bars and hand built templates.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which
| matters
| > | to
| > | > > our
| > | > > > | all
| > | > > > | > | > | volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo
| > | running
| > | > > > | > | > | Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I
| defined a
| > | > > manual
| > | > > > | > | > | version control process that is cumbersome but allows
| > | changes to
| > | > > > | > | > | backed out.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff)
| and
| > | can
| > | > > > | endure
| > | > > > | > | > | crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My
| > | co-developer
| > | > > > | > | > | stopped doing any changes because the process was too
| > | > > error-prone
| > | > > > | for
| > | > > > | > | > | him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly
| > | decided
| > | > > that
| > | > > > | FP
| > | > > > | > | > | 2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly
| > | want to
| > | > > > | make
| > | > > > | > | > | it possible for other people in the non-profit to create
| > | > > content.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | Our server will not have FP extensions or any
| ODBC/ASP/IIS
| > | > > stuff.
| > | > > > | > | > | WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier
| for
| > | me.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | - shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative
| to
| > | SSI
| > | > > but
| > | > > > | it
| > | > > > | > | > | appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include
| Page
| > | seems
| > | > > to
| > | > > > | be
| > | > > > | > | > | a MS version of SSI.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | - conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | - automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when
| there
| > | have
| > | > > been
| > | > > > | > | > | interlocking updates.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | - check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone
| > | > > forgetting to
| > | > > > | > | > | check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on
| > | clearing
| > | > > the
| > | > > > | > | > | lock.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | - publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read
| > | messages
| > | > > > | > | > | describing problems with FTP as a link to the server.
| Are
| > | we
| > | > > better
| > | > > > | > | > | just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP
| > | program?
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | - automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making
| thumbnails
| > | of
| > | > > bird
| > | > > > | > | > | and flower pictures is a big problem for us. However,
| it
| > | sounds
| > | > > a
| > | > > > | bit
| > | > > > | > | > | limited.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | Any comments on these or other features would be
| > | appreciated.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS
| > | products.
| > | > > The
| > | > > > | > | > | Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has
| enought
| > | > > detailed
| > | > > > | > | > | info especially on using FP w/o FP server extensions.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | Bill
| > | > > > | > | > | http://www.wcosf.org/
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > |
| > | > > > | > |
| > | > > > | >
| > | > > > | >
| > | > > > |
| > | > > > |
| > | > > >
| > | > > >
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|

 

[chris leeds]

Stefan,
thank you so much for that post. I really was doubting my sanity. and
wondering if I had 30 or 40 different menus all over my site!
It's a super cool feature, and that one alone is worth having the extensions
(imho).
It seems the more I use FrontPage the features I like most are the ones that
don't get much "buzz". like publishing/ organization, easy database
connection setups, include page, etc.
I'm now just starting to play with fp 2003 and it seems that I'm really
liking the "snippets", and some of the other little things nobody really
yaks about.
Thanks again!

--
The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
spam.
Please feel free to contact me here:
http://nedp.net/contact/
--

Your right - does it in FP2002 and FP2003
But I guess it is makes sense
What FP is doing is running a recalculate hyperlinks after any publish

event (this includes a single page publish of an include page

file) to update the server side FP META data
- that forces an update of "indexes" which means the FP SE on the server

are opening & re-saving the content of all affected pages

right after the "upload" (not changing that affected file's date/time)

That's an interesting short cut, but it could be dangerous if somehow your

include page html is broken (malformed table) and the

resultant pages using it are broken and can't display at all

On a non FP SE site w/ FTP it would not be able to do that, so the changes

would not propagate to the affected pages

--




| this behavior is being seen with FrontPage 2002.
|
| --
| The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
| spam.
| Please feel free to contact me here:
| http://nedp.net/contact/
| --
|
|
| | > Might be that since FP2003 does open access to the site (FP SE) when you
| publish (to get the meta data from the online site), the
| > publishing event causes a recalculate hyperlinks on the server side site,
| which does update (resave) pages using the includes
| > If that's the case, (and all 100 of your pages change content &
| time/dates), then that's an improvement in FP 2003 I was not aware
| > of
| >
| > Try it on 2 distinct different days or times and compare your published
| sites file dates (and online in browser) to see if the
| > changes really propagated
| >
| > --
| >
| > _____________________________________________
| > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > _____________________________________________
| >
| >
| | > | it's not possible that 100 updated pages are getting published. the
| server
| > | _must_ be updating the pages that require the include page. believe me,
| I'd
| > | notice the difference between one page at 3 or 4 seconds and 100. I'm
| no
| > | guru but I'd notice that. ;-)
| > |
| > | --
| > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all
| the
| > | spam.
| > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | --
| > |
| > |
| > | | > | > Chris,
| > | > Trust me, they are all being published. It's invisible.
| > | > You can also simply save the include when done and then select publish
| > | > and the same thing happens.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > --
| > | > Steve Easton
| > | > Microsoft MVP FrontPage
| > | > 95isalive
| > | > This site is best viewed..................
| > | > ..............................with a computer
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > | > | > > maybe I'm mis-explaining what I think I'm seeing.
| > | > > I'm not publishing all the pages, just the include. it seems that
| the
| > | > > server is, for lack of a better phrase, "cascading" the include page
| > | into
| > | > > all the other pages that use it. I'm sure I'm not publishing all
| the
| > | pages
| > | > > because I'm using the "publish selected files", plus it's too quick
| to
| > | have
| > | > > published all the pages.
| > | > > Maybe I'm losing my mind. ;-)
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > > --
| > | > > The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of
| all
| > | the
| > | > > spam.
| > | > > Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | > > http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | > > --
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > > | > | > > > Correct
| > | > > > When you save the include page, FP in the background is re-saving
| all
| > | the
| > | > > files affected w/ the new content, and updating the meta
| > | > > > data on those files to indicate they have changed (and need
| > | publishing)
| > | > > >
| > | > > > --
| > | > > >
| > | > > > _____________________________________________
| > | > > > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > | > > > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > | > > > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > > > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > > > _____________________________________________
| > | > > >
| > | > > >
| > | > > | > | > > > | I have noticed that say, if I change a menu that's included, and
| > | publish
| > | > > > | just that menu page, all the pages it's included into are
| updated
| > | > > > | automatically. I assumed the server knew and re-wrote the
| pages.
| > | > > > |
| > | > > > |
| > | > > > | --
| > | > > > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got
| tired of
| > | all
| > | > > the
| > | > > > | spam.
| > | > > > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | > > > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | > > > | --
| > | > > > |
| > | > > > |
| > | > > > | | > | > > > | > No
| > | > > > | > The Include is Design time only
| > | > > > | > - changes are saved to the files using it
| > | > > > | > - you need to publish all the affected files
| > | > > > | >
| > | > > > | > --
| > | > > > | >
| > | > > > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > > > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > | > > > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > | > > > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > > > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > > > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > > > | >
| > | > > > | >
| > | > > > | | > | > > > | > | Re: include page
| > | > > > | > | Stefan,
| > | > > > | > | If I change a page that's used as a FrontPage include and
| right
| > | > > click/
| > | > > > | > | publish selected files, and publish just the include page it
| > | changes
| > | > > in
| > | > > > | all
| > | > > > | > | the pages on the server web that it's included in.
| > | > > > | > | Would it still work that way without the extensions? How
| could
| > | the
| > | > > > | server
| > | > > > | > | web "know" to do this without the extensions?
| > | > > > | > |
| > | > > > | > | --
| > | > > > | > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got
| > | tired of
| > | > > all
| > | > > > | the
| > | > > > | > | spam.
| > | > > > | > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | > > > | > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | > > > | > | --
| > | > > > | > |
| > | > > > | > |
| > | > > > | > | | > | > > > | > | > For the Features that require the FP SE See (FP 2003 uses
| the
| > | > > FP2002
| > | > > > | SE)
| > | > > > | > | > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=281532
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > | > Shared borders (and Include Pages) don't require the FP SE
| on
| > | the
| > | > > > | server
| > | > > > | > | > - they are design time includes, not run time
| > | > > > | > | > The new Dynamic Web Templates are more powerful
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > | > Conflict detection?
| > | > > > | > | > Do you Mean Browser Compatibility Checking?
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > | > Synchronization requires the FP SE on the online host
| > | > > > | > | > Check In / Out requires the FP SE on the local or online
| host
| > | > > > | > | > - w/o the FP SE you are limited to FTP "publishing"
| > | > > > | > | > - 3rd party FTP is always more powerful than the FP FTP
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > | > Check out Behaviors, Code Snippets and Interactive Buttons
| > | > > > | > | > --
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > > > | > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > | > > > | > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > | > > > | > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > > > | > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > > > | > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > | | > | > > > | > | > | I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for ~2
| > | months.
| > | > > Our
| > | > > > | > | > | site was built last year using Netscape Composer using
| SSI
| > | for
| > | > > menus
| > | > > > | > | > | and navigation bars and hand built templates.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which
| matters
| > | to
| > | > > our
| > | > > > | all
| > | > > > | > | > | volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin ux bo
| > | running
| > | > > > | > | > | Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I
| defined a
| > | > > manual
| > | > > > | > | > | version control process that is cumbersome but allows
| > | changes to
| > | > > > | > | > | backed out.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel stuff)
| and
| > | can
| > | > > > | endure
| > | > > > | > | > | crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My
| > | co-developer
| > | > > > | > | > | stopped doing any changes because the process was too
| > | > > error-prone
| > | > > > | for
| > | > > > | > | > | him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and reluctantly
| > | decided
| > | > > that
| > | > > > | FP
| > | > > > | > | > | 2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I mostly
| > | want to
| > | > > > | make
| > | > > > | > | > | it possible for other people in the non-profit to create
| > | > > content.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | Our server will not have FP extensions or any
| ODBC/ASP/IIS
| > | > > stuff.
| > | > > > | > | > | WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and easier
| for
| > | me.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | - shared borders sounded like an interesting alternative
| to
| > | SSI
| > | > > but
| > | > > > | it
| > | > > > | > | > | appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include
| Page
| > | seems
| > | > > to
| > | > > > | be
| > | > > > | > | > | a MS version of SSI.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | - conflict detection sounds valuable. Any downsides?
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | - automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when
| there
| > | have
| > | > > been
| > | > > > | > | > | interlocking updates.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | - check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to someone
| > | > > forgetting to
| > | > > > | > | > | check-in a file. I don't see any clear information on
| > | clearing
| > | > > the
| > | > > > | > | > | lock.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | - publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I read
| > | messages
| > | > > > | > | > | describing problems with FTP as a link to the server.
| Are
| > | we
| > | > > better
| > | > > > | > | > | just doing server updates manually with a separate FTP
| > | program?
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | - automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making
| thumbnails
| > | of
| > | > > bird
| > | > > > | > | > | and flower pictures is a big problem for us. However,
| it
| > | sounds
| > | > > a
| > | > > > | bit
| > | > > > | > | > | limited.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | Any comments on these or other features would be
| > | appreciated.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS
| > | products.
| > | > > The
| > | > > > | > | > | Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has
| enought
| > | > > detailed
| > | > > > | > | > | info especially on using FP w/o FP server extensions.
| > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > > > | > | > | Bill
| > | > > > | > | > | http://www.wcosf.org/
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > | >
| > | > > > | > |
| > | > > > | > |
| > | > > > | >
| > | > > > | >
| > | > > > |
| > | > > > |
| > | > > >
| > | > > >
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Stefan B Rusynko]

Wait till you find DWT and Behaviors( plus how to customize them)
(-;

--




| Stefan,
| thank you so much for that post. I really was doubting my sanity. and
| wondering if I had 30 or 40 different menus all over my site!
| It's a super cool feature, and that one alone is worth having the extensions
| (imho).
| It seems the more I use FrontPage the features I like most are the ones that
| don't get much "buzz". like publishing/ organization, easy database
| connection setups, include page, etc.
| I'm now just starting to play with fp 2003 and it seems that I'm really
| liking the "snippets", and some of the other little things nobody really
| yaks about.
| Thanks again!
|
| --
| The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
| spam.
| Please feel free to contact me here:
| http://nedp.net/contact/
| --
|
|
| | > Your right - does it in FP2002 and FP2003
| > But I guess it is makes sense
| > What FP is doing is running a recalculate hyperlinks after any publish
| event (this includes a single page publish of an include page
| > file) to update the server side FP META data
| > - that forces an update of "indexes" which means the FP SE on the server
| are opening & re-saving the content of all affected pages
| > right after the "upload" (not changing that affected file's date/time)
| >
| > That's an interesting short cut, but it could be dangerous if somehow your
| include page html is broken (malformed table) and the
| > resultant pages using it are broken and can't display at all
| >
| > On a non FP SE site w/ FTP it would not be able to do that, so the changes
| would not propagate to the affected pages
| >
| > --
| >
| > _____________________________________________
| > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > _____________________________________________
| >
| >
| | > | this behavior is being seen with FrontPage 2002.
| > |
| > | --
| > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all
| the
| > | spam.
| > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | --
| > |
| > |
| > | | > | > Might be that since FP2003 does open access to the site (FP SE) when
| you
| > | publish (to get the meta data from the online site), the
| > | > publishing event causes a recalculate hyperlinks on the server side
| site,
| > | which does update (resave) pages using the includes
| > | > If that's the case, (and all 100 of your pages change content &
| > | time/dates), then that's an improvement in FP 2003 I was not aware
| > | > of
| > | >
| > | > Try it on 2 distinct different days or times and compare your
| published
| > | sites file dates (and online in browser) to see if the
| > | > changes really propagated
| > | >
| > | > --
| > | >
| > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > _____________________________________________
| > | >
| > | >
| > | | > | > | it's not possible that 100 updated pages are getting published. the
| > | server
| > | > | _must_ be updating the pages that require the include page. believe
| me,
| > | I'd
| > | > | notice the difference between one page at 3 or 4 seconds and 100.
| I'm
| > | no
| > | > | guru but I'd notice that. ;-)
| > | > |
| > | > | --
| > | > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of
| all
| > | the
| > | > | spam.
| > | > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | > | --
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | > | | > | > | > Chris,
| > | > | > Trust me, they are all being published. It's invisible.
| > | > | > You can also simply save the include when done and then select
| publish
| > | > | > and the same thing happens.
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > | > | > --
| > | > | > Steve Easton
| > | > | > Microsoft MVP FrontPage
| > | > | > 95isalive
| > | > | > This site is best viewed..................
| > | > | > ..............................with a computer
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > | > | > | > | > | > > maybe I'm mis-explaining what I think I'm seeing.
| > | > | > > I'm not publishing all the pages, just the include. it seems
| that
| > | the
| > | > | > > server is, for lack of a better phrase, "cascading" the include
| page
| > | > | into
| > | > | > > all the other pages that use it. I'm sure I'm not publishing
| all
| > | the
| > | > | pages
| > | > | > > because I'm using the "publish selected files", plus it's too
| quick
| > | to
| > | > | have
| > | > | > > published all the pages.
| > | > | > > Maybe I'm losing my mind. ;-)
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > > --
| > | > | > > The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got
| tired of
| > | all
| > | > | the
| > | > | > > spam.
| > | > | > > Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | > | > > http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | > | > > --
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > > | > | > | > > > Correct
| > | > | > > > When you save the include page, FP in the background is
| re-saving
| > | all
| > | > | the
| > | > | > > files affected w/ the new content, and updating the meta
| > | > | > > > data on those files to indicate they have changed (and need
| > | > | publishing)
| > | > | > > >
| > | > | > > > --
| > | > | > > >
| > | > | > > > _____________________________________________
| > | > | > > > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > | > | > > > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > | > | > > > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > | > > > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > | > > > _____________________________________________
| > | > | > > >
| > | > | > > >
| > | > | > > | > | > | > > > | I have noticed that say, if I change a menu that's included,
| and
| > | > | publish
| > | > | > > > | just that menu page, all the pages it's included into are
| > | updated
| > | > | > > > | automatically. I assumed the server knew and re-wrote the
| > | pages.
| > | > | > > > |
| > | > | > > > |
| > | > | > > > | --
| > | > | > > > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got
| > | tired of
| > | > | all
| > | > | > > the
| > | > | > > > | spam.
| > | > | > > > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | > | > > > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | > | > > > | --
| > | > | > > > |
| > | > | > > > |
| > | > | > > > | | > | > | > > > | > No
| > | > | > > > | > The Include is Design time only
| > | > | > > > | > - changes are saved to the files using it
| > | > | > > > | > - you need to publish all the affected files
| > | > | > > > | >
| > | > | > > > | > --
| > | > | > > > | >
| > | > | > > > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > | > > > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > | > | > > > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > | > | > > > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > | > > > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > | > > > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > | > > > | >
| > | > | > > > | >
| > | > | > > > | | > | > | > > > | > | Re: include page
| > | > | > > > | > | Stefan,
| > | > | > > > | > | If I change a page that's used as a FrontPage include
| and
| > | right
| > | > | > > click/
| > | > | > > > | > | publish selected files, and publish just the include
| page it
| > | > | changes
| > | > | > > in
| > | > | > > > | all
| > | > | > > > | > | the pages on the server web that it's included in.
| > | > | > > > | > | Would it still work that way without the extensions?
| How
| > | could
| > | > | the
| > | > | > > > | server
| > | > | > > > | > | web "know" to do this without the extensions?
| > | > | > > > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | --
| > | > | > > > | > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I
| got
| > | > | tired of
| > | > | > > all
| > | > | > > > | the
| > | > | > > > | > | spam.
| > | > | > > > | > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | > | > > > | > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | > | > > > | > | --
| > | > | > > > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > |
| message
| > | > | > > > | > | | > | > | > > > | > | > For the Features that require the FP SE See (FP 2003
| uses
| > | the
| > | > | > > FP2002
| > | > | > > > | SE)
| > | > | > > > | > | > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=281532
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > | > Shared borders (and Include Pages) don't require the
| FP SE
| > | on
| > | > | the
| > | > | > > > | server
| > | > | > > > | > | > - they are design time includes, not run time
| > | > | > > > | > | > The new Dynamic Web Templates are more powerful
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > | > Conflict detection?
| > | > | > > > | > | > Do you Mean Browser Compatibility Checking?
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > | > Synchronization requires the FP SE on the online host
| > | > | > > > | > | > Check In / Out requires the FP SE on the local or
| online
| > | host
| > | > | > > > | > | > - w/o the FP SE you are limited to FTP "publishing"
| > | > | > > > | > | > - 3rd party FTP is always more powerful than the FP
| FTP
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > | > Check out Behaviors, Code Snippets and Interactive
| Buttons
| > | > | > > > | > | > --
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > | > > > | > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP -
| FrontPage ]
| > | > | > > > | > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!"
| (-;
| > | > | > > > | > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > | > > > | > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > | > > > | > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > | | > | > | > > > | > | > | I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for
| ~2
| > | > | months.
| > | > | > > Our
| > | > | > > > | > | > | site was built last year using Netscape Composer
| using
| > | SSI
| > | > | for
| > | > | > > menus
| > | > | > > > | > | > | and navigation bars and hand built templates.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which
| > | matters
| > | > | to
| > | > | > > our
| > | > | > > > | all
| > | > | > > > | > | > | volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin
| ux bo
| > | > | running
| > | > | > > > | > | > | Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I
| > | defined a
| > | > | > > manual
| > | > | > > > | > | > | version control process that is cumbersome but
| allows
| > | > | changes to
| > | > | > > > | > | > | backed out.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel
| stuff)
| > | and
| > | > | can
| > | > | > > > | endure
| > | > | > > > | > | > | crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My
| > | > | co-developer
| > | > | > > > | > | > | stopped doing any changes because the process was
| too
| > | > | > > error-prone
| > | > | > > > | for
| > | > | > > > | > | > | him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and
| reluctantly
| > | > | decided
| > | > | > > that
| > | > | > > > | FP
| > | > | > > > | > | > | 2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I
| mostly
| > | > | want to
| > | > | > > > | make
| > | > | > > > | > | > | it possible for other people in the non-profit to
| create
| > | > | > > content.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | Our server will not have FP extensions or any
| > | ODBC/ASP/IIS
| > | > | > > stuff.
| > | > | > > > | > | > | WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and
| easier
| > | for
| > | > | me.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | - shared borders sounded like an interesting
| alternative
| > | to
| > | > | SSI
| > | > | > > but
| > | > | > > > | it
| > | > | > > > | > | > | appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include
| > | Page
| > | > | seems
| > | > | > > to
| > | > | > > > | be
| > | > | > > > | > | > | a MS version of SSI.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | - conflict detection sounds valuable. Any
| downsides?
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | - automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when
| > | there
| > | > | have
| > | > | > > been
| > | > | > > > | > | > | interlocking updates.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | - check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to
| someone
| > | > | > > forgetting to
| > | > | > > > | > | > | check-in a file. I don't see any clear information
| on
| > | > | clearing
| > | > | > > the
| > | > | > > > | > | > | lock.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | - publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I
| read
| > | > | messages
| > | > | > > > | > | > | describing problems with FTP as a link to the
| server.
| > | Are
| > | > | we
| > | > | > > better
| > | > | > > > | > | > | just doing server updates manually with a separate
| FTP
| > | > | program?
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | - automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making
| > | thumbnails
| > | > | of
| > | > | > > bird
| > | > | > > > | > | > | and flower pictures is a big problem for us.
| However,
| > | it
| > | > | sounds
| > | > | > > a
| > | > | > > > | bit
| > | > | > > > | > | > | limited.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | Any comments on these or other features would be
| > | > | appreciated.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS
| > | > | products.
| > | > | > > The
| > | > | > > > | > | > | Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has
| > | enought
| > | > | > > detailed
| > | > | > > > | > | > | info especially on using FP w/o FP server
| extensions.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | Bill
| > | > | > > > | > | > | http://www.wcosf.org/
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > |
| > | > | > > > | >
| > | > | > > > | >
| > | > | > > > |
| > | > | > > > |
| > | > | > > >
| > | > | > > >
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > >
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|

 

[chris leeds]

unless I finally learn how to do the .net stuff first!, which is unlikely at
best. It may be possible that I'm the only person on the face of the planet
who's allergic to .net. better call the CDC. ;-)

--
The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
spam.
Please feel free to contact me here:
http://nedp.net/contact/
--

Wait till you find DWT and Behaviors( plus how to customize them)
(-;

--




| Stefan,
| thank you so much for that post. I really was doubting my sanity. and
| wondering if I had 30 or 40 different menus all over my site!
| It's a super cool feature, and that one alone is worth having the extensions
| (imho).
| It seems the more I use FrontPage the features I like most are the ones that
| don't get much "buzz". like publishing/ organization, easy database
| connection setups, include page, etc.
| I'm now just starting to play with fp 2003 and it seems that I'm really
| liking the "snippets", and some of the other little things nobody really
| yaks about.
| Thanks again!
|
| --
| The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all the
| spam.
| Please feel free to contact me here:
| http://nedp.net/contact/
| --
|
|
| | > Your right - does it in FP2002 and FP2003
| > But I guess it is makes sense
| > What FP is doing is running a recalculate hyperlinks after any publish
| event (this includes a single page publish of an include page
| > file) to update the server side FP META data
| > - that forces an update of "indexes" which means the FP SE on the server
| are opening & re-saving the content of all affected pages
| > right after the "upload" (not changing that affected file's date/time)
| >
| > That's an interesting short cut, but it could be dangerous if somehow your
| include page html is broken (malformed table) and the
| > resultant pages using it are broken and can't display at all
| >
| > On a non FP SE site w/ FTP it would not be able to do that, so the changes
| would not propagate to the affected pages
| >
| > --
| >
| > _____________________________________________
| > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > _____________________________________________
| >
| >
| | > | this behavior is being seen with FrontPage 2002.
| > |
| > | --
| > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of all
| the
| > | spam.
| > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | --
| > |
| > |
| > | | > | > Might be that since FP2003 does open access to the site (FP SE) when
| you
| > | publish (to get the meta data from the online site), the
| > | > publishing event causes a recalculate hyperlinks on the server side
| site,
| > | which does update (resave) pages using the includes
| > | > If that's the case, (and all 100 of your pages change content &
| > | time/dates), then that's an improvement in FP 2003 I was not aware
| > | > of
| > | >
| > | > Try it on 2 distinct different days or times and compare your
| published
| > | sites file dates (and online in browser) to see if the
| > | > changes really propagated
| > | >
| > | > --
| > | >
| > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > _____________________________________________
| > | >
| > | >
| > | | > | > | it's not possible that 100 updated pages are getting published. the
| > | server
| > | > | _must_ be updating the pages that require the include page. believe
| me,
| > | I'd
| > | > | notice the difference between one page at 3 or 4 seconds and 100.
| I'm
| > | no
| > | > | guru but I'd notice that. ;-)
| > | > |
| > | > | --
| > | > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got tired of
| all
| > | the
| > | > | spam.
| > | > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | > | --
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | > | | > | > | > Chris,
| > | > | > Trust me, they are all being published. It's invisible.
| > | > | > You can also simply save the include when done and then select
| publish
| > | > | > and the same thing happens.
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > | > | > --
| > | > | > Steve Easton
| > | > | > Microsoft MVP FrontPage
| > | > | > 95isalive
| > | > | > This site is best viewed..................
| > | > | > ..............................with a computer
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > | > | > | > | > | > > maybe I'm mis-explaining what I think I'm seeing.
| > | > | > > I'm not publishing all the pages, just the include. it seems
| that
| > | the
| > | > | > > server is, for lack of a better phrase, "cascading" the include
| page
| > | > | into
| > | > | > > all the other pages that use it. I'm sure I'm not publishing
| all
| > | the
| > | > | pages
| > | > | > > because I'm using the "publish selected files", plus it's too
| quick
| > | to
| > | > | have
| > | > | > > published all the pages.
| > | > | > > Maybe I'm losing my mind. ;-)
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > > --
| > | > | > > The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got
| tired of
| > | all
| > | > | the
| > | > | > > spam.
| > | > | > > Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | > | > > http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | > | > > --
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > > | > | > | > > > Correct
| > | > | > > > When you save the include page, FP in the background is
| re-saving
| > | all
| > | > | the
| > | > | > > files affected w/ the new content, and updating the meta
| > | > | > > > data on those files to indicate they have changed (and need
| > | > | publishing)
| > | > | > > >
| > | > | > > > --
| > | > | > > >
| > | > | > > > _____________________________________________
| > | > | > > > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > | > | > > > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > | > | > > > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > | > > > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > | > > > _____________________________________________
| > | > | > > >
| > | > | > > >
| > | > | > > | > | > | > > > | I have noticed that say, if I change a menu that's included,
| and
| > | > | publish
| > | > | > > > | just that menu page, all the pages it's included into are
| > | updated
| > | > | > > > | automatically. I assumed the server knew and re-wrote the
| > | pages.
| > | > | > > > |
| > | > | > > > |
| > | > | > > > | --
| > | > | > > > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I got
| > | tired of
| > | > | all
| > | > | > > the
| > | > | > > > | spam.
| > | > | > > > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | > | > > > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | > | > > > | --
| > | > | > > > |
| > | > | > > > |
| > | > | > > > | | > | > | > > > | > No
| > | > | > > > | > The Include is Design time only
| > | > | > > > | > - changes are saved to the files using it
| > | > | > > > | > - you need to publish all the affected files
| > | > | > > > | >
| > | > | > > > | > --
| > | > | > > > | >
| > | > | > > > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > | > > > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
| > | > | > > > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
| > | > | > > > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > | > > > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > | > > > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > | > > > | >
| > | > | > > > | >
| > | > | > > > | | > | > | > > > | > | Re: include page
| > | > | > > > | > | Stefan,
| > | > | > > > | > | If I change a page that's used as a FrontPage include
| and
| > | right
| > | > | > > click/
| > | > | > > > | > | publish selected files, and publish just the include
| page it
| > | > | changes
| > | > | > > in
| > | > | > > > | all
| > | > | > > > | > | the pages on the server web that it's included in.
| > | > | > > > | > | Would it still work that way without the extensions?
| How
| > | could
| > | > | the
| > | > | > > > | server
| > | > | > > > | > | web "know" to do this without the extensions?
| > | > | > > > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | --
| > | > | > > > | > | The email address on this posting is a "black hole". I
| got
| > | > | tired of
| > | > | > > all
| > | > | > > > | the
| > | > | > > > | > | spam.
| > | > | > > > | > | Please feel free to contact me here:
| > | > | > > > | > | http://nedp.net/contact/
| > | > | > > > | > | --
| > | > | > > > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > |
| message
| > | > | > > > | > | | > | > | > > > | > | > For the Features that require the FP SE See (FP 2003
| uses
| > | the
| > | > | > > FP2002
| > | > | > > > | SE)
| > | > | > > > | > | > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=281532
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > | > Shared borders (and Include Pages) don't require the
| FP SE
| > | on
| > | > | the
| > | > | > > > | server
| > | > | > > > | > | > - they are design time includes, not run time
| > | > | > > > | > | > The new Dynamic Web Templates are more powerful
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > | > Conflict detection?
| > | > | > > > | > | > Do you Mean Browser Compatibility Checking?
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > | > Synchronization requires the FP SE on the online host
| > | > | > > > | > | > Check In / Out requires the FP SE on the local or
| online
| > | host
| > | > | > > > | > | > - w/o the FP SE you are limited to FTP "publishing"
| > | > | > > > | > | > - 3rd party FTP is always more powerful than the FP
| FTP
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > | > Check out Behaviors, Code Snippets and Interactive
| Buttons
| > | > | > > > | > | > --
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > | > > > | > | > SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP -
| FrontPage ]
| > | > | > > > | > | > "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!"
| (-;
| > | > | > > > | > | > To find the best Newsgroup for FrontPage support see:
| > | > | > > > | > | > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
| > | > | > > > | > | > _____________________________________________
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > | | > | > | > > > | > | > | I'm starting to use FP 2003 after using FP 2002 for
| ~2
| > | > | months.
| > | > | > > Our
| > | > | > > > | > | > | site was built last year using Netscape Composer
| using
| > | SSI
| > | > | for
| > | > | > > menus
| > | > | > > > | > | > | and navigation bars and hand built templates.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | Composer was very buggy and annoying but free which
| > | matters
| > | > | to
| > | > | > > our
| > | > | > > > | all
| > | > | > > > | > | > | volunteer non-profit. Our site is hosted on a Lin
| ux bo
| > | > | running
| > | > | > > > | > | > | Apache. I use PHP and MySQL where I need them. I
| > | defined a
| > | > | > > manual
| > | > | > > > | > | > | version control process that is cumbersome but
| allows
| > | > | changes to
| > | > | > > > | > | > | backed out.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | I'm a 30 year career programmer (Windows kernel
| stuff)
| > | and
| > | > | can
| > | > | > > > | endure
| > | > | > > > | > | > | crappy tools and a tedious, error-[rone process. My
| > | > | co-developer
| > | > | > > > | > | > | stopped doing any changes because the process was
| too
| > | > | > > error-prone
| > | > | > > > | for
| > | > | > > > | > | > | him. I looked at WYSIWYG HTML editors and
| reluctantly
| > | > | decided
| > | > | > > that
| > | > | > > > | FP
| > | > | > > > | > | > | 2003 was the right choice in spite of the cost. I
| mostly
| > | > | want to
| > | > | > > > | make
| > | > | > > > | > | > | it possible for other people in the non-profit to
| create
| > | > | > > content.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | Our server will not have FP extensions or any
| > | ODBC/ASP/IIS
| > | > | > > stuff.
| > | > | > > > | > | > | WebDAV is possible but FTP seems more secure and
| easier
| > | for
| > | > | me.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | So which FP 2003 features should I use and avoid?
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | - shared borders sounded like an interesting
| alternative
| > | to
| > | > | SSI
| > | > | > > but
| > | > | > > > | it
| > | > | > > > | > | > | appears to be tied to FP server entensions. Include
| > | Page
| > | > | seems
| > | > | > > to
| > | > | > > > | be
| > | > | > > > | > | > | a MS version of SSI.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | - conflict detection sounds valuable. Any
| downsides?
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | - automatic synchronization sounds a bit risky when
| > | there
| > | > | have
| > | > | > > been
| > | > | > > > | > | > | interlocking updates.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | - check-out/check-in seems to be vulnerable to
| someone
| > | > | > > forgetting to
| > | > | > > > | > | > | check-in a file. I don't see any clear information
| on
| > | > | clearing
| > | > | > > the
| > | > | > > > | > | > | lock.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | - publishing sounds good for my co-workers but I
| read
| > | > | messages
| > | > | > > > | > | > | describing problems with FTP as a link to the
| server.
| > | Are
| > | > | we
| > | > | > > better
| > | > | > > > | > | > | just doing server updates manually with a separate
| FTP
| > | > | program?
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | - automatic thumbnails sounds useful since making
| > | thumbnails
| > | > | of
| > | > | > > bird
| > | > | > > > | > | > | and flower pictures is a big problem for us.
| However,
| > | it
| > | > | sounds
| > | > | > > a
| > | > | > > > | bit
| > | > | > > > | > | > | limited.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | Any comments on these or other features would be
| > | > | appreciated.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | The online help seems pretty bad compared to past MS
| > | > | products.
| > | > | > > The
| > | > | > > > | > | > | Buyens book seems the most detailed but no book has
| > | enought
| > | > | > > detailed
| > | > | > > > | > | > | info especially on using FP w/o FP server
| extensions.
| > | > | > > > | > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > | > | Bill
| > | > | > > > | > | > | http://www.wcosf.org/
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > | >
| > | > | > > > | > |
| > | > | > > > | > |
| > | > | > > > | >
| > | > | > > > | >
| > | > | > > > |
| > | > | > > > |
| > | > | > > >
| > | > | > > >
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > >
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|