curious font problem?

[Steve Rindsberg]

Sorry it took a couple of days to get to it. Generating the new
presentation in a folder on my hard drive resulted in a new folder
containing lots of stuff besides the presentation file itself -- I
hope you didn't need that emailed as well.

No problem on either count. What you sent was exactly what I was after.

I had a look at the slide in the Script Editor (which can often reveal more about fonts that PPT itself
will tell you). The text that includes both Devanagari/Sanskrit and Ethiopic is very definitely ALL set
in Arial Unicode MS. There are no requests for add'l fonts.

The specific characters requested are in a numeric range that contains no characters in Arial Unicode MS
(which fits with our earlier observation that neither Character Map nor Insert Symbol mentions Ethiopic).

But here's where it starts to get interesting: Apparently Windows has the ability to substitute fonts at
need when a requested character isn't present in the current font. In other words, it looks at your
presentation's request for Arial Unicode MS, character number 4707 decimal/1263 hex, finds that the
character isn't present in the font, goes rummaging around in its font collection, finds another font that
DOES have the requested glyphs, and uses it instead.

As unlikely as this may seem, I offer this as proof:

I went here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Amharic

and found a link to gfzemenu.ttf (GF Zemen Unicode), an Ethiopic font. I downloaded that, dropped it into
my fonts folder, went back to your PPT presentation (w/o even closing and reopening it or restarting PPT)
and bingo, it was now displaying the correct Ethiopic glyphs (ie, they matched the screen shot you
included, as near as I can tell).

Despite the fact that it's clearly using a different font to display the Ethiopic characters, PPT still
shows that the text is in Arial Unicode MS (and in fact it is ... PPT is still asking for character 4707
et al in that font, but Windows is doing some fancy footwork behind the scenes to supply the needed glyph,
even if it has to swap fonts to do it.

That pretty much nails down the "Why it happens" bit, I think.

Now for the "What to DO about it."

The gfzemenu.ttf font I downloaded is completely embeddable. If the font you're using is also, you can
try embedding it in the PPT while saving.

First, you'd have to set the font back from Arial Unicode MS to [whatever you're using].
Then choose File, Save As, give the file a new name, then click Tools, choose Save Options, then put a
check next to Embed Truetype Fonts and save the file. This may or may not work ... here it crashed PPT
repeatedly(oddball fonts can do this).

If the font you're using will embed, then when you open the presentation on other computers, it should
work correctly.

For limited amounts of text, I'd suggest another simpler, much more reliable dodge:

Click within the text to get the editing cursor
Press ESC to select the shape that contains the text
Press Ctrl + C to copy the shape
Choose Edit, Paste Special and select PNG as the type; click OK

That'll give you an image of the text rather than the text itself. An image won't be editable, but will
require no fonts, so won't change.

You may then want to drag the original "fonted" text off the slide rather than just deleting it.
You can then drag it back on, edit, and reconvert to PNG should edits become necessary.


Whew. We owe one another a drink. ;-)

 

[grammatim]

No problem on either count. What you sent was exactly what I was after.

I had a look at the slide in the Script Editor (which can often reveal more about fonts that PPT itself
will tell you). The text that includes both Devanagari/Sanskrit and Ethiopic is very definitely ALL set
in Arial Unicode MS. There are no requests for add'l fonts.

The specific characters requested are in a numeric range that contains no characters in Arial Unicode MS
(which fits with our earlier observation that neither Character Map nor Insert Symbol mentions Ethiopic).

But here's where it starts to get interesting: Apparently Windows has the ability to substitute fonts at
need when a requested character isn't present in the current font. In other words, it looks at your
presentation's request for Arial Unicode MS, character number 4707 decimal/1263 hex, finds that the
character isn't present in the font, goes rummaging around in its font collection, finds another font that
DOES have the requested glyphs, and uses it instead.

As unlikely as this may seem, I offer this as proof:

I went here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Amharic

and found a link to gfzemenu.ttf (GF Zemen Unicode), an Ethiopic font. I downloaded that, dropped it into
my fonts folder, went back to your PPT presentation (w/o even closing and reopening it or restarting PPT)
and bingo, it was now displaying the correct Ethiopic glyphs (ie, they matched the screen shot you
included, as near as I can tell).

(I picked a letter that doesn't change its shape when you add the
little pieces to it, so it would be clearer for the audience.)

Despite the fact that it's clearly using a different font to display the Ethiopic characters, PPT still
shows that the text is in Arial Unicode MS (and in fact it is ... PPT is still asking for character 4707
et al in that font, but Windows is doing some fancy footwork behind the scenes to supply the needed glyph,
even if it has to swap fonts to do it.

That pretty much nails down the "Why it happens" bit, I think.

Amazing!!

Seems like you need to be lashing your counterparts over in the
Windows office with a wet noodle, or something.

Now for the "What to DO about it."

The gfzemenu.ttf font I downloaded is completely embeddable. If the font you're using is also, you can
try embedding it in the PPT while saving.

First, you'd have to set the font back from Arial Unicode MS to [whatever you're using].
Then choose File, Save As, give the file a new name, then click Tools, choose Save Options, then put a
check next to Embed Truetype Fonts and save the file. This may or may not work ... here it crashed PPT
repeatedly(oddball fonts can do this).

I'll see what happens the next time I use these data as an example.

BTW, if I had _typed_ my Chinese examples instead of using a graphic,
would an entire font of 5000+ 16-bit characters have been incorporated
into the "packed" PPT presentation on the CD, thus making it rather
larger than 6 Mb? (Not that I _could_ type my Chinese examples: I
found a very full discussion of the many different Chinese IME's
available in Windows -- which left out the simple instructions of how
to install any one of them -- only one seems to be available in out-of-
the-box XP Pro -- or what the mapping of the phonetic varieties (which
is what I'd be using) to the keyboard!

If the font you're using will embed, then when you open the presentation on other computers, it should
work correctly.

For limited amounts of text, I'd suggest another simpler, much more reliable dodge:

Click within the text to get the editing cursor
Press ESC to select the shape that contains the text

I.e. the whole text box? How about images of just the few characters
involved?

Press Ctrl + C to copy the shape
Choose Edit, Paste Special and select PNG as the type; click OK

That'll give you an image of the text rather than the text itself. An image won't be editable, but will
require no fonts, so won't change.

You may then want to drag the original "fonted" text off the slide rather than just deleting it.
You can then drag it back on, edit, and reconvert to PNG should edits become necessary.

Whew. We owe one another a drink. ;-)

What does "PNG" mean?

You like eggnog?

 

[Steve Rindsberg]

Amazing!!

Seems like you need to be lashing your counterparts over in the
Windows office with a wet noodle, or something.

My counterparts? Here at PPTools Universal HQ, that'd be a wife, four permanent cats and a loaner kitten.
<g>

Like the other folks who answer questions here, I don't work for MS. Strictly a volunteer (it's easy to tell
... the MS folks aren't allowed to get cranky with the customers).

But setting aside the potential for mass confusion (which we've managed between us to demonstrate clearly
enough, eh? <g>) this isn't all bad. Consider: PowerPoint's asking Windows to display a character that doesn't
exist in a particular font. Instead of just giving up then and there, Windows finds a font that *does* contain
the character and uses that. It might not be the right font, but as long as it can find one with the character
available, we get it, rather than the useless "Beats me, Boss" blank box that we'd get otherwise.

Now for the "What to DO about it."

The gfzemenu.ttf font I downloaded is completely embeddable. If the font you're using is also, you can
try embedding it in the PPT while saving.

First, you'd have to set the font back from Arial Unicode MS to [whatever you're using].
Then choose File, Save As, give the file a new name, then click Tools, choose Save Options, then put a
check next to Embed Truetype Fonts and save the file. This may or may not work ... here it crashed PPT
repeatedly(oddball fonts can do this).

I'll see what happens the next time I use these data as an example.

BTW, if I had _typed_ my Chinese examples instead of using a graphic,
would an entire font of 5000+ 16-bit characters have been incorporated
into the "packed" PPT presentation on the CD, thus making it rather
larger than 6 Mb?

Not necessarily. When you choose Tools, Save Options in the Save dialog box, you have the option of embedding
the entire font or just the needed characters. In the first case, you get larger files, of course, but the
presentation remains editable on other computers. In the second, the files will be smaller but you won't be
able to edit text in that font.

(Not that I _could_ type my Chinese examples: I
found a very full discussion of the many different Chinese IME's
available in Windows -- which left out the simple instructions of how
to install any one of them -- only one seems to be available in out-of-
the-box XP Pro

It may be that some of the others aren't included with Windows and must be purchased. Or came with earlier
versions of Windows?

I found a reasonably thorough explanation of installing and using Chinese and Japanese support here:
http://newton.uor.edu/Departments&Programs/AsianStudiesDept/Language/index.html

-- or what the mapping of the phonetic varieties (which
is what I'd be using) to the keyboard!

I've never had call to install any of the Chinese IMEs. The Japanese IME allows entering characters in several
ways; for non-Japanese reader/speakers, the easiest is to enter the reading of the characters phonetically in
our normal roman letters; as you enter them, they get converted to hiragana (Japanese phonetic characters) and
thence optionally to kanji (Chinese characters).

I.e. the whole text box? How about images of just the few characters
involved?

You could do that as well; just create a text box containing only the needed characters. You need to be able to
select the entire shape that contains the desired text, not the text itself.

What does "PNG" mean?

It's a graphics file format ... Portable Network Graphics.
The reason for using it rather than other formats is that it supports transparency, which you may need.

You like eggnog?

With rum? We can work with this. You take the nog, I'll take the grog.

 

[grammatim]

My counterparts? Here at PPTools Universal HQ, that'd be a wife, four permanent cats and a loaner kitten.
<g>

Like the other folks who answer questions here, I don't work for MS. Strictly a volunteer (it's easy to tell
.. the MS folks aren't allowed to get cranky with the customers).

But setting aside the potential for mass confusion (which we've managed between us to demonstrate clearly
enough, eh? <g>) this isn't all bad. Consider: PowerPoint's asking Windows to display a character that doesn't
exist in a particular font. Instead of just giving up then and there, Windows finds a font that *does* contain
the character and uses that. It might not be the right font, but as long as it can find one with the character
available, we get it, rather than the useless "Beats me, Boss" blank box that we'd get otherwise.

But that it claims the characters are in a font they're not in is most
unfortunate. (I don't know where it might have gotten the Ge`ez
characters when I told it to use Arial Unicode, since I'm not aware
that I have any Ge`ez other than Ge`ez Unicode, which what the final
result was different from!)

When I use characters with diacritics that don't happen to occur in
Times Roman, it replaces them with Tahoma (unfortunately), but it
doesn't claim they're Times Roman!

Now for the "What to DO about it."
The gfzemenu.ttf font I downloaded is completely embeddable. If the font you're using is also, you can
try embedding it in the PPT while saving.
First, you'd have to set the font back from Arial Unicode MS to [whatever you're using].
Then choose File, Save As, give the file a new name, then click Tools, choose Save Options, then put a
check next to Embed Truetype Fonts and save the file. This may or may not work ... here it crashed PPT
repeatedly(oddball fonts can do this).

I'll see what happens the next time I use these data as an example.

BTW, if I had _typed_ my Chinese examples instead of using a graphic,
would an entire font of 5000+ 16-bit characters have been incorporated
into the "packed" PPT presentation on the CD, thus making it rather
larger than 6 Mb?

Not necessarily. When you choose Tools, Save Options in the Save dialog box, you have the option of embedding
the entire font or just the needed characters. In the first case, you get larger files, of course, but the
presentation remains editable on other computers. In the second, the files will be smaller but you won't be
able to edit text in that font.

(Not that I _could_ type my Chinese examples: I
found a very full discussion of the many different Chinese IME's
available in Windows -- which left out the simple instructions of how
to install any one of them -- only one seems to be available in out-of-
the-box XP Pro

It may be that some of the others aren't included with Windows and must be purchased. Or came with earlier
versions of Windows?

I found a reasonably thorough explanation of installing and using Chinese and Japanese support here:http://newton.uor.edu/Departments&Programs/AsianStudiesDept/Language/...

-- or what the mapping of the phonetic varieties (which
is what I'd be using) to the keyboard!

I've never had call to install any of the Chinese IMEs. The Japanese IME allows entering characters in several
ways; for non-Japanese reader/speakers, the easiest is to enter the reading of the characters phonetically in
our normal roman letters; as you enter them, they get converted to hiragana (Japanese phonetic characters) and
thence optionally to kanji (Chinese characters).

I'm looking at http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/handson/user/IME_Paper.mspx?pf=true
, by Russ Rolfe, which shows lots of Jpn. keyboards but none for
typing in romaji -- the closest it comes is the kana keyboard.

You could do that as well; just create a text box containing only the needed characters. You need to be able to
select the entire shape that contains the desired text, not the text itself.



It's a graphics file format ... Portable Network Graphics.
The reason for using it rather than other formats is that it supports transparency, which you may need.


With rum? We can work with this. You take the nog, I'll take the grog.

I don't like rum. When I made eggnog, I used brandy. So you can have
the whole supply!

 

[Steve Rindsberg]

But that it claims the characters are in a font they're not in is most

unfortunate.

Yes and no. By the time I got the file, the characters WERE formatted in Arial Unicode MS. But AUMS wasn't
able to deliver the characters needed, so Windows substituted something else that could.

(I don't know where it might have gotten the Ge`ez
characters when I told it to use Arial Unicode, since I'm not aware
that I have any Ge`ez other than Ge`ez Unicode, which what the final
result was different from!)

Probably the same thing as was happening here ... the Ge`ez Unicode font could supply the characters needed
where AUMS couldn't.

I think the substitution is outside PPT's control. It asks for text, certain characters in a certain font, and
uses what Windows hands it back. If that's the case, all it knows is that the text is in AUMS, as far as it's
concerned.

I'm looking at http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/handson/user/IME_Paper.mspx?pf=true
, by Russ Rolfe, which shows lots of Jpn. keyboards but none for
typing in romaji -- the closest it comes is the kana keyboard.

The first table (A1 under Japanese IMEs) shows typing "ka" ... romaji ... to get the hiragana with that
reading.

All of the other examples beneath that (the various IME Pads) are different input options for the same Japanese
IME.

I don't like rum. When I made eggnog, I used brandy. So you can have
the whole supply!

A deal!