Corrupt NTFS filesystem

[Citizen Bob]

For those who have been following this tortured saga of the Corrupt
NTFS Filesystem, I think I finally fixed it.

I am running Win2K which was built from an InPlace Upgrade of a
previous installation of Win2K in another computer, which was built
from a previous installation of NT4 in yet another computer. The
original NT4 was first installed in the first part of 1997, so this
current version of Win2K traces back 10 years.

I know, I should reinstall Win2K from scratch. But I refuse to do it
because 1) I have close to 100 installed applications, many of which I
do not even recall the customizations. It would take months to
reinstall all that software to the same configuration I now have; 2) I
refuse to cave in to the absurd demands of Windows having to be
reinstalled every 6 months just because MS won't spend the money to
fix it. Maybe I will install Vista from scratch, but not XP or Win2K.

So I have no choice but to work around the many problems that a 10
year old installation of Win NT and its spawn have to offer. This one,
the corrupt NTFS filesystem problem, has been plaguing me for over a
year. If I reboot Win2K and run it normally for over 1 day, when I
reboot I find either CHKDSK wants to run or once in a while I get a
BSOD. In every instance but one, I have been able to recover the
corrupted disk by mounting it as D: and running CHKDSK D: /f on it.
All sorts of crap fills the screen - stuff about broken files all over
the place, mostly having to do with security descriptors and empty
space in the MFT.

So I think I may have fixed this fiasco - no more "corrupt NTFS
filesystem". Do you really want to know how I did it?

I converted to a FAT32 filesystem, and guess what - no more corrupt
NTFS filesystem. Pretty cool, eh.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Rod Speed]

For those who have been following this tortured saga
of the Corrupt NTFS Filesystem, I think I finally fixed it.

I am running Win2K which was built from an InPlace Upgrade
of a previous installation of Win2K in another computer, which
was built from a previous installation of NT4 in yet another
computer. The original NT4 was first installed in the first part
of 1997, so this current version of Win2K traces back 10 years.
Urk.

I know, I should reinstall Win2K from scratch. But I refuse to do
it because 1) I have close to 100 installed applications, many of
which I do not even recall the customizations. It would take months
to reinstall all that software to the same configuration I now have;
Fine.

2) I refuse to cave in to the absurd demands of Windows having to be
reinstalled every 6 months just because MS won't spend the money to fix it.

That isnt true of either 2K or XP.

Maybe I will install Vista from scratch, but not XP or Win2K.

XP has a files and settings transfer wizard
which should bring the config stuff across fine.

So I have no choice but to work around the many problems that
a 10 year old installation of Win NT and its spawn have to offer.

That is just plain wrong, you do have a choice.

This one, the corrupt NTFS filesystem problem,
has been plaguing me for over a year.

And if you had done your backups properly, you could have
stepped back to the copy you had before the problem showed up.

If I reboot Win2K and run it normally for over 1 day, when I reboot
I find either CHKDSK wants to run or once in a while I get a BSOD.
In every instance but one, I have been able to recover the corrupted
disk by mounting it as D: and running CHKDSK D: /f on it. All sorts of
crap fills the screen - stuff about broken files all over the place, mostly
having to do with security descriptors and empty space in the MFT.

So I think I may have fixed this fiasco - no more "corrupt NTFS
filesystem". Do you really want to know how I did it?

I converted to a FAT32 filesystem, and guess what
- no more corrupt NTFS filesystem. Pretty cool, eh.

You'll likely find that if you convert it back to NTFS now it will be fine too.

 

[meow2222]

I know, I should reinstall Win2K from scratch. But I refuse to do it
because 1) I have close to 100 installed applications, many of which I
do not even recall the customizations. It would take months to
reinstall all that software to the same configuration I now have;

instead you're a year down the line.

So I think I may have fixed this fiasco - no more "corrupt NTFS
filesystem". Do you really want to know how I did it?

I converted to a FAT32 filesystem, and guess what - no more corrupt
NTFS filesystem. Pretty cool, eh.

Yes, and it works the other way round too. FAT32 has some strange
issues, so if/when they surface you can convert back to ntfs


NT

 

[Citizen Bob]

XP has a files and settings transfer wizard
which should bring the config stuff across fine.

If you mean the User Profiles, then I can do that with Win2K.

But will this transfer wizard also copy registry settings for
installed applications? If not then I would have to reinstall nearly
100 apps.

If this transfer wizard is just an IPU, then it will copy the
contaminated parts of the Registry.

That is just plain wrong, you do have a choice.

I am interested. Please expand. My son runs XP Pro so I can have him
research anything you comment on before I try it.

And if you had done your backups properly, you could have
stepped back to the copy you had before the problem showed up.

I did not implement the backup procedure until the problems arose. I
learned my lesson - I will *always* have a backup/restore plan
implemented. When we depended on computers in business we ran a daily
backup. But I am at home and this is not mission critical.

In defense of my laxness, I can tell you that I never had serious
problems with either NT4 or the previous installations of Win2K. It
was this last installation that screwed things up.

You mentioned that I should have had a backup before I installed that
RAID application, which is high on my list of things that likely
caused the problems I had with NTFS corruption. However I persevered
with that app for about 6 months because the factory was working with
me to fix some other problems. It is very unlikely I would have kept a
backup that long, since it would have tied up a hard disk. I suppose I
could have zipped it and laid it off on DVDs but I did not think it
was necessary.

You'll likely find that if you convert it back to NTFS now it will be fine too.

I thought about that. However I do not see why I should use NTFS when
FAT 32 is working. I can't think of any substantive reason to use NTFS
in my configuration. I have a simple two-computer LAN using a NAT
router and even though I have nearly 100 installed apps, none of them
appears to require NTFS. IOW, I do not believe I need the features of
NTFS in my simple configuration. But because I am curious, I may go
back to NTFS just to see what will happen.

However, even with FAT 32, I still get two device drivers per
partition in NT Defrag and Perfect Disk. If you load NT Defrag, how
many devices do you see per partition? I asked my son to check his XP
intallation, but he is too busy making money. I have to catch him
sitting in front of his machine.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Citizen Bob]

FAT32 has some strange issues,

I have never used FAT32 on NT. What are some of those issues?



--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Citizen Bob]

FAT32 has some strange issues

What is the maximum file size with FAT32?


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[VWWall]

What is the maximum file size with FAT32?

4GB minus two bytes.

 

[Rod Speed]

If you mean the User Profiles,
Nope.

then I can do that with Win2K.

2K doesnt have the files and settings transfer wizard. Thats its name.

But will this transfer wizard also copy
registry settings for installed applications?
Yes.

If not then I would have to reinstall nearly 100 apps.

You do have to reinstall them, but it copys the settings/config data across.

If this transfer wizard is just an IPU,

It isnt.

then it will copy the contaminated parts of the Registry.

I am interested. Please expand.

I already did.

My son runs XP Pro so I can have him research
anything you comment on before I try it.

Have a look at the files and settings transfer wizard.

I did not implement the backup procedure until the problems arose.
I learned my lesson - I will *always* have a backup/restore plan
implemented. When we depended on computers in business we
ran a daily backup. But I am at home and this is not mission critical.

Doesnt need to be 'mission critical', proper backups would
have avoided farting around for a year trying to fix that problem.

In defense of my laxness, I can tell you that I never had serious
problems with either NT4 or the previous installations of Win2K.

Thats as silly as saying that you havent had any
hardware die, so you dont need any backups.

It was this last installation that screwed things up.

It always is.

You mentioned that I should have had a backup before I installed
that RAID application, which is high on my list of things that likely
caused the problems I had with NTFS corruption. However I persevered
with that app for about 6 months because the factory was working with
me to fix some other problems. It is very unlikely I would have kept a
backup that long, since it would have tied up a hard disk.

You should have done that if it had a problem.

I suppose I could have zipped it and laid it off
on DVDs but I did not think it was necessary.

And now you know that it was.

I thought about that. However I do not see why I should use NTFS when FAT 32
is working. can't think of any substantive reason to use NTFS in my configuration.

The main reason is that FAT32 cant handle files over 4GB and once you start
using a digital TV tuner card, you will generate files much bigger than that.

I have a simple two-computer LAN using a NAT router and even though
I have nearly 100 installed apps, none of them appears to require NTFS.
IOW, I do not believe I need the features of NTFS in my simple configuration.

You're wrong.

But because I am curious, I may go back to NTFS just to see what will happen.

However, even with FAT 32, I still get two device drivers per partition

THERE ARE NO SEPARATE DEVICE DRIVERS.

in NT Defrag and Perfect Disk. If you load NT Defrag,
how many devices do you see per partition?

Cant readily try that, I run XP on everything.

With the Disk Defragmenter in XP I have just one entry per partition.

I asked my son to check his XP intallation, but he is too busy
making money. I have to catch him sitting in front of his machine.

You should chain him to the machine.

 

[meow2222]

4GB minus two bytes.

FAT32 max partition size is 30G, which is its biggest limitation. NTFS
is a much more secure and reliable fs as well as being more fully
featured. Eg FAT has 2 copies of the FAT, and when an error ocurs, as
they do, scandisk just picks one at random and overwrites the other.
50% of the time tis works... and 50% of the time you lose data. NTFS
has 3 copies, so this problem doesnt happen. FAT has no password
security system, ntfs does, so fat is 100% accessible to viri and any
user.

Maybe you dont need the features of ntfs and fat32's limitations arent
a problem. FAT32 does give more OS options than ntfs, handy if dual
booting, running dos apps, or swapping discs with winDOS systems.


NT

 

[VWWall]

FAT32 max partition size is 30G, which is its biggest limitation.

Using WindowsXP, it won't let you create a partition larger than 32G.
Formatted elsewhere, larger FAT32 partitions work fine in WindowsXP.
FAT32 can support a maximum disk size of approximately 8 terabytes

 

[Citizen Bob]

4GB minus two bytes.

Uh oh.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Citizen Bob]

THERE ARE NO SEPARATE DEVICE DRIVERS.

Then why am I seeing two entries per partition n NT Defrag and Perfect
Disk, but not My computer or Disk Management?

Cant readily try that, I run XP on everything.

I meant the degragger for XP.

With the Disk Defragmenter in XP I have just one entry per partition.

Then there is obviously something really weird going on with my
installation, whether the filesystem is NTFS or FAT32.

You should chain him to the machine.

Then he would not make as much money as he does. He is an independent
residential mortgage broker and every time he puts his phone to his
ear, he makes money.



--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[VWWall]

Uh oh.

Uh yes--unless you want to argue about one byte!

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314463

<quote>
You cannot create a file larger than (2^32)-1 bytes (this is one byte
less than 4 GB) on a FAT32 partition.
</quote>

Other Microsoft sources say "4 GB minus 2 bytes". Take your pick!

"...Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent."

Applies particularly to Microsoft articles!

 

[kony]

FAT32 max partition size is 30G, which is its biggest limitation. NTFS
is a much more secure and reliable fs as well as being more fully
featured.

This is generally untrue.

UNLESS you set encryption or permissions, NTFS gains nothing
security wise. Maybe he would, but the security is not
better just because of NTFS.

As for reliability, not really. The vast majority of
problems with FAT32, would effect NTFS as well.

Eg FAT has 2 copies of the FAT, and when an error ocurs, as
they do, scandisk just picks one at random and overwrites the other.

If you have errors, fix the problem.

50% of the time tis works... and 50% of the time you lose data. NTFS
has 3 copies, so this problem doesnt happen. FAT has no password
security system, ntfs does, so fat is 100% accessible to viri and any
user.

Where does a virus tend to put itself? OS partition. Are
you seriously claiming everyone with NTFS on Winxp, has
never had a virus on their OS partition?

Maybe you dont need the features of ntfs and fat32's limitations arent
a problem. FAT32 does give more OS options than ntfs, handy if dual
booting, running dos apps, or swapping discs with winDOS systems.

I'm not suggesting FAT32 is better than NTFS, but
practically speaking everyone repeats the marketing blurb
you did, too, without really considering the application,
whether it'll matter.

 

[kony]

I know, I should reinstall Win2K from scratch. But I refuse to do it
because 1) I have close to 100 installed applications, many of which I
do not even recall the customizations. It would take months to
reinstall all that software to the same configuration I now have; 2) I
refuse to cave in to the absurd demands of Windows having to be
reinstalled every 6 months just because MS won't spend the money to
fix it. Maybe I will install Vista from scratch, but not XP or Win2K.

Again you are being silly.

There is no more reason to install Vista from scratch than
Win2k. There is no reason to install win2k every six
months, but rather what WAS ALREADY TOLD TO YOU.

Do a clean Win2k install. Did anyone suggest "reinstall
every 6 months"? No. You need to focus on what WAS
written, not on wild presumptions.

So you have a lot of apps installed? So what? Think
nobody else does? All you have to do is make a clean
installation, export the appropriate registry keys and copy
over the installation folders and shortcuts for the start
menu. Will it work 100% of the time? No, there will be a
few things that need more attention, but since nobody was
suggesting you just delete your entire existing
installation, it's not as though this information is
suddenly gone and can't be referred to, to get any rogue
apps working.

Something else you can do is compare the clean
installation's system and driver files to your old one- the
apps should not need special drivers in most cases, save for
a few dealing with specific hardware.

 

[Rod Speed]

Then why am I seeing two entries per partition n NT Defrag
and Perfect Disk, but not My computer or Disk Management?

They are getting confused by something. It isnt currently clear by what.

I meant the degragger for XP.

Then there is obviously something really weird going on with
my installation, whether the filesystem is NTFS or FAT32.

Yes, but since you that showed up after the stupid raid
system was installed, its almost certainly been done by that.

Then he would not make as much money as he does.

True. There are always some downsides.

He is an independent residential mortgage broker and
every time he puts his phone to his ear, he makes money.

Just get him a cordless phone so he can still do that even when chained to the PC.

 

[Rod Speed]

(e-mail address removed) wrote

VWWall wrote

FAT32 max partition size is 30G,

Nope. XP wont create one bigger than that but it
works fine if you use something else to create it.

which is its biggest limitation.

Nope, the biggest limitation is actually the 4G file size limit.

NTFS is a much more secure and reliable fs

Thats arguable when NT/2K/XP claims that its unformatted
when its still usable in something else like knoppix etc.

as well as being more fully featured.

Yes, lots more secure and much more flexible with encryption etc.

Eg FAT has 2 copies of the FAT, and when an error ocurs, as
they do, scandisk just picks one at random and overwrites the other.

It isnt done at random.

50% of the time tis works... and 50% of the time you lose data.

Its much more complicated than that.

NTFS has 3 copies, so this problem doesnt happen.

Nice theory. Pity about the reality that NT/2K/XP can just decide
that the partition is unformatted when other stuff can read it fine.

FAT has no password security system, ntfs does,
so fat is 100% accessible to viri and any user.

Maybe you dont need the features of ntfs and fat32's limitations arent
a problem. FAT32 does give more OS options than ntfs, handy if dual
booting, running dos apps, or swapping discs with winDOS systems.

And much more viable if you want to be able to
write to that partition from both Win and Linux etc.

 

[Citizen Bob]

They are getting confused by something. It isnt currently clear by what.

If I change the drive letter, it takes effect immediately for one of
the device drivers (the one with the label) but not the other. I have
to reboot to get it to take effect on the other one.

There is something going on with what Windows calls a "generic
device". I see it in the Install/Remove Hardware utility. Sometimes
when I add a partition in Disk Management, it attempts to assign the
next drive letter in the alphabetic sequence, but can't because "that
letter is already in use" or somesuch. But there is no such device to
be found. If I then remove the generic device with the Add/Remove
Hardware, it frees up the hidden letter and I can use it.

Also, in the Registry there is key that shows Mounted Devices. It has
an entry for the hidden drive letter that can't be used. If I clear
out that key, it becomes available.

Yes, but since you that showed up after the stupid raid
system was installed, its almost certainly been done by that.

When I built this machine and did an IPU to install Win2K, I ran it
very briefly without that RAID contraption. But I did not use the
defragger so I do not know if there were two device drivers per
partition. I then installed the RAID unit and kept it for about 6
months. The corrupt NTFS partition problem showed up immediately.

I contacted the Product Line Manager in Taiwan and she was eager to
work with me to find the source of the problem. But after a short
period she turned cold - I suspect she discovered that there was
something radically wrong with her product. I contacted my vendor and
he contacted the US importer and they decided that the product was not
functioning properly, so I was given a full cash refund. That's when I
began making clones for backup.

Just get him a cordless phone so he can still do that even when chained to the PC.

He has a cordless phone, and it is constantly in use.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Citizen Bob]

Uh yes

When I learned this, I immediately converted back to NTFS. It will
take a couple days to see if swapping back and forth has cured the
problem, as Rod suggested it might. I sure as Hell hope so.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Citizen Bob]

I'm not suggesting FAT32 is better than NTFS, but
practically speaking everyone repeats the marketing blurb
you did, too, without really considering the application,
whether it'll matter.

The 4GB limitation on file size is a killer for me. I do a lot of
video work and a 4GB file is not unheard of.



--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge