Corrupt NTFS filesystem

C

Citizen Bob

All you have to do is make a clean installation,

Easy enough
export the appropriate registry keys

How do you propose I do that? I have nearly 100 installed apps. Do you
expect me to fish thru the Registry looking for every possible
reference to them, including the classes, etc?
and copy over the installation folders and shortcuts for the start
menu.

Easy enough. You also want to copy the profiles.
Will it work 100% of the time? No, there will be a
few things that need more attention, but since nobody was
suggesting you just delete your entire existing
installation, it's not as though this information is
suddenly gone and can't be referred to, to get any rogue
apps working.

I can deal with a small number of apps that don't work. In fact there
were two such apps that did not survive the NTFS -> FAT32 transition
or the FAT32 -> NTFS transition back. I simply uninstalled and
reinstalled.
Something else you can do is compare the clean
installation's system and driver files to your old one- the
apps should not need special drivers in most cases, save for
a few dealing with specific hardware.

How do you propose I do that?

You make it sound so easy, albeit tedious. But I have serious
reservations about just how easy it is. But I am willing to listen to
any constructive comments. If I can pull off a clean reinstall by
merely doing the things you state above, then let's get started.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
 
C

Citizen Bob

Nope, the biggest limitation is actually the 4G file size limit.

That is why I just returned to the NTFS fs. However based on your
comment that the problem might go away if I converted the FAT32 fs I
made the other day to an NTFS fs, I went that route. I should know in
a couple days if the corruption problem has gone away.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
 
R

Rod Speed

If I change the drive letter, it takes effect immediately for one
of the device drivers (the one with the label) but not the other.

THERE ARE NO SEPARATE DEVICE DRIVERS.
I have to reboot to get it to take effect on the other one.
There is something going on with what Windows calls a "generic
device". I see it in the Install/Remove Hardware utility. Sometimes
when I add a partition in Disk Management, it attempts to assign the
next drive letter in the alphabetic sequence, but can't because "that
letter is already in use" or somesuch.

Thats mangled completely too. It should be able to work out what is free.
But there is no such device to be found. If I then remove the generic device
with the Add/Remove Hardware, it frees up the hidden letter and I can use it.

You've stuffed something up, presumably in the process of
using that abortion of a RAID, but it could just as easily have
been you use of whatever it was you used to clone the drive too.
Also, in the Registry there is key that shows Mounted Devices.
It has an entry for the hidden drive letter that can't be used.
If I clear out that key, it becomes available.

Presumably something else keeps putting it back.
When I built this machine and did an IPU to install Win2K, I ran it
very briefly without that RAID contraption. But I did not use the
defragger so I do not know if there were two device drivers per
partition. I then installed the RAID unit and kept it for about 6
months. The corrupt NTFS partition problem showed up immediately.
I contacted the Product Line Manager in Taiwan and she was
eager to work with me to find the source of the problem. But
after a short period she turned cold - I suspect she discovered
that there was something radically wrong with her product.

Or she decided that you were too bone headed to bother with.

Kony clearly has.
I contacted my vendor and he contacted the US importer and they
decided that the product was not functioning properly, so I was given
a full cash refund. That's when I began making clones for backup.
He has a cordless phone, and it is constantly in use.

A retrospective abortion may well be the only solution.
 
C

Citizen Bob

THERE ARE NO SEPARATE DEVICE DRIVERS.

Here's the facts as I see them.

1) If I open a defragger (NT Defrag or Perfect Disk), I see two
entries per partition. Both have a drive letter and one has the volume
label, whereas the other is blank after the drive letter.

2) This does not show up in Disk Management. However there are hidden
devices sometimes because when I format a partition, it won't let me
assign the drive letters for the hidden devices.

3) In DiskPerfect I can expose the GUID for the device drivers, and
they are different for the two entries per partition.

4) Every time I change the disk signature (using Win98SE fdisk /mbr) I
get a message that I have to reboot because Windows has detected a new
device.
You've stuffed something up, presumably in the process of
using that abortion of a RAID, but it could just as easily have
been you use of whatever it was you used to clone the drive too.

The problem was present before I used clones. That problem (corrupt
NTFS partitions) was the reason I got rid of the RAID contraption.
Presumably something else keeps putting it back.

If I could find what it is, I might be able to fix this problem.

One poster suggested that I use RegMon (a Registry monitor that
displays everything that goes on in the Registry) to track down the
problem. The trouble with that is there would be literally thousands
of records to sort thru.
Or she decided that you were too bone headed to bother with.

Why would you say that? If you knew me, you would know I am the
complete opposite. Are you sure you are not projecting.
Kony clearly has.

Kony doesn't appreciate what I am up against. Anyway, there may be a
misunderstanding about what he means by a "fresh install". I took it
to mean that I have to reinstall all my applications, which is clearly
a nightmare. Now he tells me in his last post that there is a way to
do a fresh install without having to reinstall everything - and it is
not an IPU.
A retrospective abortion may well be the only solution.

That is not a nice thing to say about my son.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
 
K

kony

Easy enough


How do you propose I do that? I have nearly 100 installed apps. Do you
expect me to fish thru the Registry looking for every possible
reference to them, including the classes, etc?

How much time have you spent so far on this drive
corruption? Hours, maybe longer considering all the time to
restore files and make more frequent backups least lose
data.

Exporting a few registry keys is mere minutes work. So what
if you have to export the classes keys and merge those too?
Remember, you are making a SECOND OS installation, it's not
like you lose anything if you accidentally cause same
problem on the new installation, and if done incrementally
could even help to narrow down what's causing it.


Easy enough. You also want to copy the profiles.

Ok, and?


How do you propose I do that?

They're files. You can take two folders and compare what's
inside, particularly in smaller folders like
C:\WINNT\system32\drivers


You make it sound so easy, albeit tedious.

You won't know till you try it, will you?
But I have serious
reservations about just how easy it is.

How can you when you only argue against it?
But I am willing to listen to
any constructive comments.
If I can pull off a clean reinstall by
merely doing the things you state above, then let's get started.

Ok, so have you started? My suggestion is the installation
on another partition or drive, done clean. Get that 100%
working, including drivers, then make a backup of it as you
will do at certain intervals so if something goes awry you
can just revert back without losing the entire installation.

I'm not claiming the whole process will be done in an hour
or two, but considering how long your present installation
has been used, a new one might last you till the end of
time...
 
C

Citizen Bob

Exporting a few registry keys is mere minutes work.

What are those "few registry keys"?
So what if you have to export the classes keys and merge those too?

Although I have used Regedit, I have no idea how to begin doing what
you are proposing.
You won't know till you try it, will you?

If you give me the instructions I am willing to give it a try.
How can you when you only argue against it?

I told you that I misunderstood what you were proposing all along. I
thought when you used the term "clean install" that I would have to
install all my applications again. That's what I was arguing against.

If you give me the instructions (or point me to a website that has
them) for doing the Registry export, I am willing to have a go at it,
because I won't have to actually reinstall anything.
Ok, so have you started? My suggestion is the installation
on another partition or drive, done clean. Get that 100%
working, including drivers, then make a backup of it as you
will do at certain intervals so if something goes awry you
can just revert back without losing the entire installation.

I assume by that you mean create a new active partition of a new
installation of Win2K. That I can do and I can dedicate a complete
disk drive to it. Should I put SP4 on too?

I will do that and report back for the next step. I am trusting you
that the Registry exports will be straightforward, and not require me
to seek out the references to 100 different apps many of which have
different names in the Registry for the same app.



--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
 
R

Rod Speed

Here's the facts as I see them.
1) If I open a defragger (NT Defrag or Perfect Disk), I see two
entries per partition. Both have a drive letter and one has the
volume label, whereas the other is blank after the drive letter.

Says nothing useful about whether there are
separate device drivers for those two entrys.
2) This does not show up in Disk Management. However there
are hidden devices sometimes because when I format a partition,
it won't let me assign the drive letters for the hidden devices.

Says nothing useful about whether there are
separate device drivers for those two entrys.
3) In DiskPerfect I can expose the GUID for the device drivers,

Those arent separate device DRIVERS either, they are just separated DEVICES.
and they are different for the two entries per partition.

Says nothing useful about whether there are
separate device drivers for those two entrys.
4) Every time I change the disk signature (using Win98SE fdisk /mbr) I get
a message that I have to reboot because Windows has detected a new device.

Says nothing useful about whether there are
separate device drivers for those two entrys.
The problem was present before I used clones.

I didnt meant the clones for backup, I meant the cloning you did in
the process of setting that system up with that abortion of a RAID.
Using the hard drive manufacturer's ute from memory.
That problem (corrupt NTFS partitions) was
the reason I got rid of the RAID contraption.

The corruption may well be an entirely separate issue to the
extra entry for each partition since changing to FAT32 fixed
the corruption but not the extra entry for each partition.
If I could find what it is, I might be able to fix this problem.
One poster suggested that I use RegMon (a Registry monitor that
displays everything that goes on in the Registry) to track down the
problem. The trouble with that is there would be literally thousands
of records to sort thru.

Thats what the search function is for.
Why would you say that?

Because of the evidence I have seen of your bone headedness.
If you knew me, you would know I am the complete opposite.

Pity about the evidence of your boneheadedness in your posts.

An absolutely classic example of that is that obsessive claim
that you have separate device drivers for those extra entrys
for each partition when there are no such separate device drivers.
Are you sure you are not projecting.

Completely sure.
Kony doesn't appreciate what I am up against.

Yes he does.
Anyway, there may be a misunderstanding about what he
means by a "fresh install". I took it to mean that I have to
reinstall all my applications, which is clearly a nightmare.

And we both kept rubbing your nose in the fact that that isnt necessary.
Now he tells me in his last post that there is a way to do a fresh
install without having to reinstall everything - and it is not an IPU.

And I told you that well before that, using the files and settings transfer wizard.
That is not a nice thing to say about my son.

That was a joke, Joyce.
 
R

Rod Speed

I'd cut to the chase and move to XP.

Install that on one of your spare drives, apply SP2 and the online updates.
Install all those apps, dont worry about the settings/config stuff for those.

Use the files and settings transfer wizard in XP to get the settings
and config stuff and files from the 2K install you are currently using.

See how you like that XP install, particularly that the wizard has got
all the settings etc across fine. If they are mostly fine and it just hasnt
got the settings for a few apps across, do those manually, if necessary
repeatedly rebooting between 2K and XP to check the original settings etc.

Once its working fine, break out the champagne and get on with your 'life'
 
K

kony

What are those "few registry keys"?


I can't answer that, because I don't have your system nor
know all the apps. A few of them would tend to be
HKLM-Software, HKCU-Software, and you mentioned classes so
HKCR.

You might take it the other way 'round though, get the clean
Win2k SP4 installation working and before trying to change
it, first compare it... for example, what's sitting in your
system32/drivers folder, if all the hardware works on the
new installation, take a hard look at what's *extra* on your
old installation.


Although I have used Regedit, I have no idea how to begin doing what
you are proposing.


Export is a menu item, so for example with the
HKLM-Software, you'd highlight that key, export it, and then
merge it on the fresh installation. Again I would wait on
that, first verifying that the new installation works as it
should, and comparing it.

If you give me the instructions I am willing to give it a try.

The key to the process is keeping your existing installation
intact. That allows copying over the installation folder,
and shortcuts, and the "Application Data" folders for each
user and for the "All users" categories (in the \Documents
and Settings\ folder)

This is essentially a volume attack at copying over the
majority of the applicable files and settings. Some apps
may put something in the system folder or elsewhere,
perhaps a license validation key or whatever, so if/when an
app won't work you'd have to either hunt down the file or
registry entry, or enter it the traditional way if it
prompts for that.

I'm not claiming you'll magically have everything working
without a bit of hunting around, but rather a lot of stuff
will work and you can then spend less time on fewer things
you either hunt down, or if you can't, then install again.



I told you that I misunderstood what you were proposing all along. I
thought when you used the term "clean install" that I would have to
install all my applications again. That's what I was arguing against.

Actually by clean install I meant not installing apps at
all, I meant not trying to use this as your replacement
everyday OS installation, yet, rather to verify the hardware
is otherwise working properly with a clean Win2kSP4 install-
because if it can't do that, there's no point in wondering
if what you have can be fixed. Further having the clean
install, it can be compared to what you have, while it might
be harder to move everything, you may install see things
that stand out, which aren't related to the apps you need
but are just clutter left over from years of use. I can't
really imagine what the system folders must look like after
so much time, upgrading, and so many apps, but there's bound
to be tons of stuff that needs cleared out and if nothing
else you could make some temporary folders and just move the
stuff, they try to run the system and see if anything
chokes.

If you give me the instructions (or point me to a website that has
them) for doing the Registry export, I am willing to have a go at it,
because I won't have to actually reinstall anything.

I never claimed you wont have to reinstall "anything", if
you have 100 apps the odds are fair you would have
something or other that needs more than just what I'd
mentioned, but it's possible you wouldn't.

The main thing is, you start doing it and see what's left,
what won't run. There are also tools that can help you see
when an app is looking for a file or a registry entry it
can't find, and then failing to run. Sysinternals.com has a
few, the Filemon and Regmon for example are both freeware.

I assume by that you mean create a new active partition of a new
installation of Win2K. That I can do and I can dedicate a complete
disk drive to it. Should I put SP4 on too?

Yes, the operating system should be 100% done, including
SP4, all modern patches, before even thinking about adding
any apps or registry entries or anything else, then back it
up first, then compare to your present installation.

This is a long roundabout way of doing it though, I'd be
looking at system32/drivers/ files and odd out-of-place
services first, and the items you can UNhide in Device
Manager. That might be useful, comparing the entire
unhidden list in Device Manager between your old
installation and the new one. This too I'd do before trying
to move any applications or registry entries.

I will do that and report back for the next step. I am trusting you
that the Registry exports will be straightforward, and not require me
to seek out the references to 100 different apps many of which have
different names in the Registry for the same app.

I gave examples above of copying the entire subkey. That
will be a little extra clutter in your registry, but if you
wanted to you could always expand these subkeys and manually
delete any of the next level that you recognize as being no
longer on the system. Likewise with the apps, you'll have
to copy them all over and while it would be easy to just say
"they're all in your program files folder", they might not
be, you'd be getting the bulk of them in one shot then
dealing with the few odd things remaining.

The main thing to remember is you're not changing your
existing installation, and by making incremental backups of
the new installation at worst what you'll have is a ready to
use OS installation when you decide to retire that system to
a secondary use (or sell it) and move all your stuff to a
new computer. So unless you plan on throwing it away this
new OS installation is something that had to be done anyway.
 
M

meow2222

This is generally untrue.

UNLESS you set encryption or permissions, NTFS gains nothing
security wise. Maybe he would, but the security is not
better just because of NTFS.

As for reliability, not really. The vast majority of
problems with FAT32, would effect NTFS as well.
If you have errors, fix the problem.

nice idea, but optimistic

Where does a virus tend to put itself? OS partition. Are
you seriously claiming everyone with NTFS on Winxp, has
never had a virus on their OS partition?

Never claimed any such thing.

I'm not suggesting FAT32 is better than NTFS, but
practically speaking everyone repeats the marketing blurb
you did, too, without really considering the application,
whether it'll matter.

OK :) I'll accept most of what you say. I've mostly stayed with fat for
compatibility reasons. I guess the experienced difference is down to os
more than fs, fat has not proved robust.


NT
 
C

Citizen Bob

I'd cut to the chase and move to XP.
Install that on one of your spare drives, apply SP2 and the online updates.

I will consider it.
Install all those apps, dont worry about the settings/config stuff for those.

What apps are you talking about? What exactly do you mean by
"install"?
Use the files and settings transfer wizard in XP to get the settings
and config stuff and files from the 2K install you are currently using.

I presume this is a new version of the IPU.
See how you like that XP install, particularly that the wizard has got
all the settings etc across fine.

Is there an easy way to do that or do I have to test each app one at a
time?
If they are mostly fine and it just hasnt
got the settings for a few apps across, do those manually, if necessary
repeatedly rebooting between 2K and XP to check the original settings etc.

I can handle manually installing a few apps.
Once its working fine, break out the champagne and get on with your 'life'

My life is already as "gotten on with" as it can get.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
 
C

Citizen Bob

You might take it the other way 'round though, get the clean
Win2k SP4 installation working and before trying to change
it, first compare it... for example, what's sitting in your
system32/drivers folder, if all the hardware works on the
new installation, take a hard look at what's *extra* on your
old installation.

That's as much work, if not more, than just reinstalling everything.

If I screw up even one Registry Key, it could impact the behavior of
the new system and I'd be back where I started.

I am still testing this new NTFS filesystem, the one I copied
everything in from the FAT32 partition. Thus far it has not gotten
corrupted. Maybe there was some kind of screwball entity in the
pagefile or MFT and by creating a new NTFS partition I got rid of it.

One thing I do notice is that Windows loads faster now. But it still
creates two devices for each partition which show up in defraggers but
not Disk Management.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
 
C

Citizen Bob

since changing to FAT32 fixed
the corruption but not the extra entry for each partition.

I di dnot test the FAT32 filesystem long enough to be certain that it
fixed the corruption problem. Of course, there can be no "NTFS
corruption" with a FAT32 partition.

Now that I am using a new NTFS partition, we will see if it gets
corrupted. It takes a week or two to make sure.
That was a joke, Joyce.

It's not funny. It's sick.

Obviously you do not have a son you can be proud of. Pity you.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
 
R

Rod Speed

I did not test the FAT32 filesystem long enough
to be certain that it fixed the corruption problem.

Why not when that involves running chkdsk ?
Of course, there can be no "NTFS corruption" with a FAT32 partition.
Sure.

Now that I am using a new NTFS partition, we will see if
it gets corrupted. It takes a week or two to make sure.

No it doesnt if you run chkdsk.
It's not funny. It's sick.

That was a joke, Joyce.
Obviously you do not have a son you can be proud of. Pity you.

That was a joke, Joyce.
 
R

Rod Speed

I will consider it.
What apps are you talking about?

All those you have got installed.
What exactly do you mean by "install"?

You must know what installing apps is about.
I presume this is a new version of the IPU.
Nope.
Is there an easy way to do that
Nope.

or do I have to test each app one at a time?
Yep.
I can handle manually installing a few apps.

You should be able to handle manually installing all those apps.

Not a shred of rocket science required at all.
My life is already as "gotten on with" as it can get.

Easy to claim when you are crippling along using a
****ed install of 2K when the world has moved on.
 
K

kony

nice idea, but optimistic

Not at all, NTFS is not a solution to a serious problem like
continual corruption of your filesystem. Optimistic would
be hoping that if you run NTFS, somehow the machine will
decide to only corrupt tables and nothing more.
 
K

kony

That's as much work, if not more, than just reinstalling everything.

Define work? Time or what?
It's the computer doing it, automated, right now I could
export the 3 keys, copy the program files folders, and
compare files and Device Manager entries in under 10
minutes, maybe more than 10 minutes to copy 100's of apps if
it was being done over a slow LAN instead of drive to drive.

You do understand that to export registry entries, you dont'
select each individual one, you highlight the subkey and all
children under that subkey are exported with one go.
Exporting the keys I'd mentioned and merging them takes
under 1 minute and maybe 20 mouse clicks (grand total for
mundane things like choosing where to save the files, etc).


If I screw up even one Registry Key, it could impact the behavior of
the new system and I'd be back where I started.

Regedit has this feature, for this purpose, so what can I
say? It's like telling you to print something and you
write "what if I screw up the printing".
 
C

Citizen Bob

It's the computer doing it, automated, right now I could
export the 3 keys,

Which 3 keys - my Registry has 5 hive keys.

I must have missed something along the way, because I do not see how
exporting hive keys is going to do any good. If the Registry is
screwed up, then exporting hive keys is going to carry the screwed up
parts along.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
 
C

Citizen Bob

Why not when that involves running chkdsk ?

I ran chkdsk. The corruption problem occurs seemingly at random. The
longer I go between reboots, the more likely corruption is. I have
gone as long as a week with no problems only to have it back again on
the next day.
No it doesnt if you run chkdsk.

You don't seem to understand the exact nature of this problem. I have
to reboot to run chkdsk, and that is when the corruption shows up. It
does not show up unless I reboot.

Ironically, if the corruption occurs, Win2K runs chkdsk for me at boot
time. Sometimes the corruption is so extensive that I get a BSOD.
That's when I have to mount the disk as D: and run chkdsk from another
boot disk. When that happens chkdsk spews forth page after page of
security descripters for kazillions of files that are presumably
corrupted too.

I have always been able to recover with one exception involving a
BSOD. That one was so bad the disk would not mount in Win2K, so
obviously I could not run chkdsk.


--

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
 
M

meow2222

kony said:
On 26 Oct 2006 00:17:27 -0700, (e-mail address removed) wrote:
Not at all, NTFS is not a solution to a serious problem like
continual corruption of your filesystem. Optimistic would
be hoping that if you run NTFS, somehow the machine will
decide to only corrupt tables and nothing more.

You said fix the problem. If you know how to make 98 manage memory
properly and not crash regularly, occasionally leaving FAT problems
behind, I'm all ears!


NT
 

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