AVG vs. NAV

  • Thread starter Thread starter kurttrail
  • Start date Start date
cquirke said:
Kurt; you have to learn spin as well as logic, when pursuing your
objectives. As I see it, you are undermining your chance of success.

cquirke, at various times, said:


Kurt responds:


I haven't forgotton that ppl have broken the EULA from day one; my
assertion is that in so doing, they have undermined their position.

And it is my assertion that it's undermines MS case, as they are the ones
that can be proved to have not shown due diligence in legally enforcing
their terms for over two decades, despite knowing that those terms were
being broken.
If they really objected to the EULA (instead of just being
mean-walleted and acting in bad faith) they should have objected to
the EULA, or as you (perhaps unrealistically **) suggest...

All they have to do is break the term. PERIOD. It is then up to MS to sue
them, if they think they can get a judge to agree with them. That's how
contract law works.

"Just like SCO's licensing claims against IBM don't mean a thing until
SCO proves them in court, MS's EULA claims don't mean a damn thing to
me, until they have stood the test of the Due Process of Law."
...or rather, stop *using* them.

Let's not confuse directed and principled advocay/activism with
unethical self-serving behaviour. Those who have done the latter for
years are not in the position to call MS a black pot today.

Nice! It is not unethical or illegal to break contractual terms, in and of
itself. According to SCO, IBM has broken terms of their licence. Just
because SCO claims this doesn't mean a court will uphold their claims. It's
for a court to decide, not the licenser.

If MS wants to prove that it's terms are legally enforcable then they can
sue me, if they don't, then I have every right to continue using my copies
of software in accordance with copyright law.
Follow the logic:
- I object to MS Office pricing, it's too expensive

OK, but it's not the same as not agreeing to an anonymous post-purchase
unsubstantiated "shrink-wrap license" term.
- I could buy a more reasonably-priced competitor instead
- that would:
- improve competition
- grow market share and awareness of alternate products
- improve competitor's resources, and ultimately products
- build familiarity so I can recommend and support alternates

But will it run the hardware & software that you've purchased over the
years? Will you have to re-educate yourself?
- but instead, I pirate MS Office
- that continues to entrench MS's mindshare monopoly...
- ...while doing nothing to boot competition

Now that would be an actual violation of copyright law. And I've never
advocated breaking any law! I want to use my software in accordance with
copyright law, namely "fair use."
Now you tell me; am I an effective activistic against MS product
dominance, or just a whiney weasel?

No, you violated the law. Breaking contractual terms, in and of itself, is
not a violation under the law.
Am I part of the problem, or part
of the solution?

You are a pirate, and I'm an individual exercising my "fair use" rights.
Do my actions favor a future of healthy competition
between viable vendors selling ever-improving products at fair prices,
or intrusive behaviour by dominant corporations who claim their
heavy-handedness has been made necessary by my actions?

"Fair Use" is not piracy. Please prove otherwise.
You've just told me that if MS expects users to keep their side of a
EULA, they should compell them to do so. What sort of "due
dilligence" would you recommend MS apply here? Technological trickery
such as WPA, or a BSA-backed witch-hunt? Call-home behaviour embedded
within their software, that triggers a DoS death-strike through a hole
left open in the OS for that purpose?

Do it under the Due Process of the Law, not through technological chicanery.
Be VERY careful what you wish for.

I was an active member of the WinXP preview groups, and I announced back
then that I broke MS's One Computer nonsense, and there were plenty of MS
employees reading those groups. I'm still waiting for MS to prove me wrong
by legal means. I am not afraid, as I have the law, and legal precedent on
my side.

No US Court has ever ruled that a "shrink-wrap license" can rewrite an
individual rights to their copies of copyrighted material, and until there
is a law or legal precedent that says that, I have every right to use my
copies of copyrighted computer programs in accordance to copyright law, over
that of MS's EULA unsubstantiated EULA claims. Like IBM, I'll wait for a
court to decide, not the licenser!
** I should clarify why I consider it unrealistic to say "just use
another OS" when it comes to Windows. More so than MS Office, Windows
isn't a stand-alone decision; it's a product required to support
unrelated decisions, such as what applications one is going to use.

It is this, rather than market dominance alone, that leads me to
concur with DoJ's assertion that MS is a monoplist in the OS sector.

Were MS to break the user's right or ability to stay on an existing
version of Windows, a "Poland line" would be crossed. That's why we
watch issues such as patch support for legacy OSs as well as moves to
"all you can eat" rental slavery with particularly sharp eyes.



Consumer Asks: "What are you?"
Market Research: ' What would you like us to be? '



--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei!"
 
Testy said:
Don't try to use reason with Kurt he does not have the ability.

LOL! When you learn to actually "use reason" give me a call.
He is a one note wonder with only a sour note.

If that were only true, then ya'll could just ignore me until I went away,
but it's ya'll that have bought MS's EULA nonsense on nothing more than
faith that are the true one note wonders.

Calling everybody "pirates" just for exercising their rights under the law,
with absolutely no proof to back it up.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei!"
 
kurttrail said:
kurttrail said:
Not a condition, an expression of hope, a wish that people that read
my words are able to attain peace of mind as I have.



And those limited warranties don't supercede the laws of States, let
alone Federal Laws. That's why you always see that the warranty
doesn't apply in certain states.


Well, in the US, where I live, Federal Law would be Supreme, since it
the Constitution that gave the US Congress the right to limit the
rights of Copyright Owners.

"The Congress shall have power to . . . . promote the progress of
science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and
inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and
discoveries . . . ." -
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articlei.html#section8
And the Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of what those limits
are.

"Any individual may reproduce a copyrighted work for a "fair use";
the copyright owner does not possess the exclusive right to such a
use." - http://laws.findlaw.com/us/464/417.html
I find sware licensing a rather dull subject (compared to the geek's
perspective of just getting things to work) so others will have to
chime in if more detail is to be delved into. But it has been the
norm for commercial software to be licensed, never sold, in that the
user seldom if ever has the right to reverse-engineer, modify or
resell the software as their own creation.

Copies of software are sold all the time. The Wholesaler isn't a
licensee of the copies of software it sells to the retailer, and the
retailer isn't a licensee either. I am an owner of a copy of retail
software long before I get a chance to see any EULA.

Your TV came with a shrinkwrap license too! "Do you think you are
only licensed to use you[r] TV, or do you think you own it after you
plunk down the cash?

Instead of snipping & ignoring what I ask, why don' you actually try
answering them!
Don't confuse what is technically possible with what you have the
right to do.

Don't confuse the claims of software copyright owners with what that
of the rights of the individual to "fairly use" their copies of
copyrighted material.
It's hypocritical to revel in the opportunity to use
technology to break license agreements, and then take umbridge when
vandors use technology to enforce the agreements you break.

When it has never been legally established that the "vandals" of
"fair use" have the right to impose private usage terms on anonymous
individuals, whose claims are really hypocritical. Especially since
the Supreme Court has already legally established the right of the
individual to "fair use" limits the rights of the copyright owner.
So either you debate this in the context of what is technically
possible, i.e. a state of open conflict between vandor and user, or
in the context of what is tacitly or explicitly agreed.

I disagree, and I have every right to remain anonymous to MS. That
would be their tough sh*t. No one is forcing them to sell software
as a retail product, so if they don't like the fact that individuals
have the right to anonymously use retail software, then they should
stop letting people buy it that way!
Be careful what you wish for.

If only banks lent money, like MS "licenses" retail software!

Actually, they do. Consider: The money you spend is as likely to
have been issued by a private bank (via overdraft or other loan)
than the national institution that issues bank notes. That money is
issued on the basis of some sort of contract with the bank, not as
your right as a citizen of the nation that issues the currancy.

And yes, there are indeed real-world implications of that :-)

What bank loans money to individuals that have every right to remain
anonymous to them? Who volume licenses software to companies that
have every right to remain anonymous to them?

MS knows they don't stand a chance of proving they have a right to
know what people do with their copies of software for private
non-commercial use, because that would supercede the individual
rights to privacy in the home, and the anonymity of their retail
purchases, and that's why they have never tried to legally enforce
their EULA claims.

"The limited scope of the copyright holder's statutory monopoly, like
the limited copyright duration required by the Constitution, reflects
a balance of competing claims upon the public interest: Creative work
is to be encouraged and rewarded, but private motivation must
ultimately serve the cause of promoting broad public availability of
literature, music, and the other arts. The immediate effect of our
copyright law is to secure a fair return for an 'author's' creative
labor. But the ultimate aim is, by this incentive, to stimulate
artistic creativity for the general public good. 'The sole interest
of the United States and the primary object in conferring the
monopoly,' this Court has said, 'lie in the general benefits derived
by the public from the labors of authors' . . . . When technological
change has rendered its literal terms ambiguous, the Copyright Act
must be construed in light of this basic purpose." -
http://laws.findlaw.com/us/422/151.html

MS has gotten more than a "fair return" out of their limited
"statutory monopoly" for the "creative labor" of its employees, and
the "general public good," that would "serve the cause of promoting
broad public availability" of software, lie in the individual's right
to "fairly use" the copies of copyrighted material they have legally
purchased for all anonymous, private & non-commercial uses, over that
of the copyright owner getting more than their fair share of getting
individuals to pay them more than once for the same copy of software.

I believe that MS EULA is a valid commercial use contract, but an
individual's rights to "fair use" cannot be usurped by the copyright
owner after the fact of the retail purchase of the copy of software.
MS believes differently. However before I accept MS's belief to the
contrary, they are gonna have to provide me with absolute legal proof
to back up their as-of-yet unsubstantiated EULA claims. I have every
right to believe as I do, until MS proves their unsubstantiated EULA
claims in a real court of law, and not in their kangaroo FUD court of
Product Activation.

Just like SCO's licensing claims against IBM don't mean a thing until
SCO proves them in court, MS's EULA claims don't mean a damn thing to
me, until they have stood the test of the Due Process of Law. You
have every right to believe MS's EULA claims on nothing more than
faith in the words of a convicted predatory monopolist, but know that
I and any other rational human being, that has no self-interested
ties to Microsoft, have every right to believe that MS EULA claims
are nothing more than FUD!

When banks start to lend money to the anonymous, that will be the day
of the death of our economic system as we know it today.

Couldn't answer this one. Picked the one-liner to answer. I thought
you would.

PA proves nothing, and all it is, is another layer of FUD, to fool
people into buying more software than they need to buy. A smart
consumer knows how to protect themselves from the BS of a convicted
predatory monopoly.

I have shown you why I believe that every individual in the US has
every right to fairly use their legally purchased copies of copyright
material, the least you can do, is show us all why you think
differently, that the copyright owner has the right to limit our
private non-commercial use of copyrighted material in our homes, with
laws & court precedents.

Please enlighten us all, about how our rights in our homes can be
legally limited by a copyright owner, just because we buy a copy of
retail copyrighted material.

Again you don't rise to the challenge of this part of the thread. How
telling!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei!"
 
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