Any opinions on this PSU?

[kony]

Which has nothing to do with your original comment. If a company sells
a better PSU, I care not if they don't make it from the ground up.
Nowhere previously were we discussing a 600w PSU.

That is a very good point.

However, for practical purposes we must concede that the
majority of systems are built to a particular budget, and
value per dollar has to apply to PSU selection.

My point, which you took exception to, was just because it said on
"JonnyGuru.com" that Seasonic was a PCP&C supplier, it is not
necessarily true. You replied: "Do your own research and then get
back to us.

I disagree with a few philosophical concepts JonnyGuru makes
but even so, what is "not necessarily true" is no more
"necessarily false", either. Even so, we dont' necessarily
have to care who is supplying PSU, only what that PSU
actually is. FWIW, one of the thing PC Power & Cooling does
that is very desirable to "some" people is fitting them with
quality Nidec fans. Unfortunately in this day and age, too
many young reviewers pay more attention to noise, and would
actually rate a PSU with a short-lived, junk fan as more
desirable than same unit with a fan that ran for the life of
the unit. It's yet another trade-off to be made, I avoid
excess noise too but only when it can be done without
consequence... I'd undervolt a PC Power & Cooling supply's
fan before buying same thing with a lower quality fan.

More to the point, Seasonic has often used Yate Loon fans
which were prone to fail within the life of the PSU if not
relubed, and I prefer to not have to relube fans once the
machine is put into service... if I needed to lube a fan
BEFORE putting it into service to avoid relubing it later,
that would happen first but rarely is that the situation
(odd shaped/sized fans would be the issue).

What your Seasonic S12-600 has to do with this is beyond me. PCP&C
does not sell a "rebadged" S12-600 or anything resembling one.

Oh?
How about the Silencer 610?
It has a few differences but at least some of those (like
the fan and complimentary sized/shaped heatsinks) are
trivial.

The S12-600 sells for about the same price as the PCP&C Silencer 610
EPS12V (about $160.) Both are rated at 40 degrees C. Both have 100,000
hour MTBFs. Both have 3 year warranties. The PCP&C PSU has much more
12v power,

Not necessarily, because when one adds up the combined
amperage on each rail, the PC P&C is significantly further
beyond it's 610W rating. Taking the 5V and 12V peak
current ratings together, the Silencer 610 is already beyond
it's total peak rating of 670W.

In other words, they've less conservatively rated their
unit towards sustained output. While that doesn't
necessarily make them any lower actual quality, it does have
to be weighed against the perception of higher wattage
potential.

while the Seasonic unit has much more 3.3v power. Both have
automatic input select, and both have .99 PFC. Both are 80%+ efficient.

So how is this PCP&C product (which has more power than your Seasonic
and is about the same price) overpriced?

Well, here's a Sparkle with 60A 12V, higher 3.3V amperage
and lower priced than either of them. It likewise can't
support continuous output of all rails, but the linked page
suggests 700W peak.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817104014
The price can be even lower though,
http://www.laptops4me.com/product_info.php/products_id/12060

Frankly, for the $150 I'd rather buy a 2nd PSU to cut the
power density in (very roughly) half per each PSU as the
cost per watt gets rather ridiculous after about 400-500W in
most models. That is, if the system actually needed in
excess of 36A 12V power for SLI'd video cards. For a lot of
HDDs, a server chassis and larger form factor PSU would tend
to make more sense. It's not a bad idea for a gaming system
either if it's really going to (try to) make use of 40-odd
amps 12V power, as that's a lot of heat dumping into the
chassis, it'll need more than one 120mm fan to stay cool
without sounding like an airplane.

 

[larry moe 'n curly]

larry moe 'n curly wrote:

The tech I talked to advised me that some of their units are rebadged, but
others, such as the Silencer series are made on premises.


Some units are built from outsourced boards, and some units even
have the boards built into the chassis elsewhere. AFAIK, they have
NO PC board "stuffing" done on premises, but they modify a lot of
them in house. PC board inspection with solder touch-up is a major
value added benefit not occurring with other vendors.

Thanks,UCLAN,.I always wondered about this. I once saw a PCP&C that
looked identical to either a Zippy or Fortron-Source of nearly the same
power rating, only the heatsinks (different shape, thicker) and one
snubber resistor was bigger, 3-5W instead of 1-2W as in the other PSU.

 

[Garrot]

More to the point, Seasonic has often used Yate Loon fans
which were prone to fail within the life of the PSU if not
relubed, and I prefer to not have to relube fans once the
machine is put into service... if I needed to lube a fan
BEFORE putting it into service to avoid relubing it later,
that would happen first but rarely is that the situation
(odd shaped/sized fans would be the issue).

Seasonic now use ADDA fans and not Yate Loon. They switched quite some time
ago.

 

[UCLAN]

More to the point, Seasonic has often used Yate Loon fans
which were prone to fail within the life of the PSU if not
relubed, and I prefer to not have to relube fans once the
machine is put into service... if I needed to lube a fan
BEFORE putting it into service to avoid relubing it later,
that would happen first but rarely is that the situation
(odd shaped/sized fans would be the issue).

I noticed that Seasonic has the disclaimer "not including DC
cooling fan" when they give their MTBF specification. That
tells me that the fan *is* prone to fail before the rest of
the PSU.

Oh?
How about the Silencer 610?
It has a few differences but at least some of those (like
the fan and complimentary sized/shaped heatsinks) are
trivial.

But the power outputs are not. Look at the huge differences in
3.3v and +12v output power on the two units. This is not a trivial
difference.

Not necessarily, because when one adds up the combined
amperage on each rail, the PC P&C is significantly further
beyond it's 610W rating. Taking the 5V and 12V peak
current ratings together, the Silencer 610 is already beyond
it's total peak rating of 670W.

Point is that 49a *can* be drawn from the +12v as long as the
maximum power is not exceeded. Not so with the Seasonic.

Pissing contest aside, my post was a direct response to the post
that claimed all of PCP&C products were overpriced and inferior
to his S12-600. Simply ain't so. And I won't even get into dealer
pricing (you know...like Newegg gets from Fortron.) Buying directly
from the manufacturer is usually the most expensive option. After all,
a manufacturer that undercuts its dealers' prices soon has no dealers.

 

[UCLAN]

I shop in Canada and up here the PCP&C TC 510 Express is $227.61 CAD plus
they use 80mm fans.

Turbo-Cool? I thought we were discussing Silencers?

They don't carry the Silencer 610. They only have the
470 Silencer @$116.63 CAD.

I bet a simple call to PCP&C would have yielded the name of a Canadian
dealer that carried the Silencer 610. [And who is "they" ??]

Perhaps the Silencer series is not made by Seasonic but they are not made
by PCP&C either.

Depends on your definition of "made by." Designed by PCP&C. Built to
PCP&C's specifications. Final assembly, final inspection, and final
test performed by PCP&C. Where do *you* draw the line? Does PCP&C stuff
their PSUs' circuit boards? Definitely not. But I know that final
assembly, final inspection, and final test is done in Carlsbad, CA,

Seeing as you have an inside line why don't you tell us
who makes them then? I was told Fortron used to make them and now Seasonic
does.

Evidently not.

BTW, this could have all been cleared up by PCP&C months ago because
I emailed them asking for more details on this exact issue. They chose to
ignore my email. Would you buy a PSU from a company that ignores your
email? I don't.

I wouldn't have ignored your email. I would have replied "None of your
business."

 

[kony]

I shop in Canada and up here the PCP&C TC 510 Express is $227.61 CAD plus
they use 80mm fans.

Turbo-Cool? I thought we were discussing Silencers?

They don't carry the Silencer 610. They only have the
470 Silencer @$116.63 CAD.

I bet a simple call to PCP&C would have yielded the name of a Canadian
dealer that carried the Silencer 610. [And who is "they" ??]

Perhaps the Silencer series is not made by Seasonic but they are not made
by PCP&C either.

Depends on your definition of "made by." Designed by PCP&C.

No, they are not designed by PC P&C... at least the Silencer
line is obviously not.

Built to
PCP&C's specifications.

That might be more true, at least enough that they may have
a few choices in component population up to the point of
what the PCB can support.

Final assembly, final inspection, and final
test performed by PCP&C. Where do *you* draw the line? Does PCP&C stuff
their PSUs' circuit boards? Definitely not. But I know that final
assembly, final inspection, and final test is done in Carlsbad, CA,
USA !! [Unlike Seasonics. <g>]

That's not necessarily a good thing, those most
knowledgeable about the unit would typically be those that
made it and by made I mean made, not finished assembly.

Evidently not.

You have a funny definition of evidence.
It seems overwhelming that the correct answer is "evidently
so". Why on earth would you pretend otherwise? It's not as
though Seasonic is a low end manufacturer, it could be
*worse*.

The reality is that PC Power & Cooling would LIKE to make
very good PSU, top possible quality in every unit. That
conflicts with the market, on their lower cost units they
have the costs of the manufacturer, PLUS their own overhead.
No wonder same thing costs more, they are entitled to charge
enough to make a fair living... but by the same token the
buyer is entitled to buy based on price, particularly when
the different is minimal and doesn't justify the price
difference.

To put it in perspective, consider the minor differences
between their past 360W and current 470W unit. It may have
a marginally larger fuse (same cost), another capacitor on
the output filter (as shown by pics), $0.20, slightly larger
transformer $2, slightly larger BJTs and diodes, $2 (if
that), slightly larger inductors $2. Does it cost only
$6.20 more? Nope.

I wouldn't have ignored your email. I would have replied "None of your
business."

No reply is better than an offensive one, even marginally so
when dealing with Joe Q. Public.

 

[kony]

I noticed that Seasonic has the disclaimer "not including DC
cooling fan" when they give their MTBF specification. That
tells me that the fan *is* prone to fail before the rest of
the PSU.

Possibly so, though it seems (and as another poster
mentioned) that they switched from the Yate Loon fans to
ADDA, which aren't top shelf but quite a bit better, in
their implementation could still be expected to provide
years longer service.

So credit does go to PC Power & Cooling for improving one of
the weakest points in many PSU, the rear exhaust fan.
However, other companies like Fortron also use HQ fan in
their mid and higher end units. Pity that Antec and Enermax
are still lagging behind here considering their non-generic
price.

But the power outputs are not. Look at the huge differences in
3.3v and +12v output power on the two units. This is not a trivial
difference.

Towards the needs of the target system, yes that's possible.
Towards merely choosing a different transformer with
different current allocation, it's not necessarily a
justification for higher cost.

FWIW, I'd rather have more 3.3V/5V power, it's rather silly
for a 500W+ PSU to scrimp here considering as mentioned
below, these are peak values to begin with, not sustained
(as already shown, PCP&C's 5V and 12V current peak alone
exceed the whole-unit peak rating). For a 400W PSU this is
understandable but for 600W, it's a sign of the budget
constraint.

Point is that 49a *can* be drawn from the +12v as long as the
maximum power is not exceeded. Not so with the Seasonic.

Insufficient evidence to conclude this beyond a peak
momentary value. Perhaps it's true but their so-called spec
sheet on the website is pathetic, more like a sales flyer
than a spec sheet.

Now tell us what you propose to put in a system that will
draw 49A but not as much 3V/5V current. I'm not claiming
it's impossible, but highly unlikely anyone will need this
current in a *PC*, PS2 form factor power supply unless
they're running peltiers and frankly, if I'd paid $150 for a
PSU I'd not try to burden it with grunt work like Peltiers,
I'd use some dedicated 12-16V PSU for it.

Pissing contest aside, my post was a direct response to the post
that claimed all of PCP&C products were overpriced and inferior
to his S12-600. Simply ain't so.

Inferior, no... similar enough that the labels could be
swapped and most people would never know.

Overpriced, for the PSU itself yes... if you value the fan
swap and their QA cost, that's your call to make- most
people in the industry do not feel it's priced
appropriately, as PCP&C has built a reasonably good name for
themselves to the extent that many people would choose one
if the cost weren't much higher. That's what they were
aiming for with the Silencer line, but it also means it
isn't as good as the Turbocools... yet the Turbocool
heatsinks as sufficient enough that if they merely wanted a
quieter PSU they could just slow down the fan (control
circuit) and spec a little lower wattage per unit.

And I won't even get into dealer

from the manufacturer is usually the most expensive option. After all,
a manufacturer that undercuts its dealers' prices soon has no dealers.

Perhaps, but in the end it has to be seen in context,
they're selling a product in a free market and thus it has
to compete. With Silencer, they're banking on their past
successes more than the intrinsic value of the PSU itself.

 

[UCLAN]

First of all, why do you keep answering my replies to Garrot?
Are you he?

Garrot wrote:
Final assembly, final inspection, and final
test performed by PCP&C. Where do *you* draw the line? Does PCP&C stuff
their PSUs' circuit boards? Definitely not. But I know that final
assembly, final inspection, and final test is done in Carlsbad, CA,
USA !! [Unlike Seasonics. <g>]

That's not necessarily a good thing, those most
knowledgeable about the unit would typically be those that
made it and by made I mean made, not finished assembly.

Hogwash. I have no idea what type of inspection/test procedures
are done in Taiwan. The *added* inspection/test done by PCP&C can
only be a positive thing, your rationalization notwithstanding.

You have a funny definition of evidence.
It seems overwhelming that the correct answer is "evidently
so". Why on earth would you pretend otherwise? It's not as
though Seasonic is a low end manufacturer, it could be
*worse*.

Would you mind repeating the evidence given in this thread that
indicates, overwhelmingly or otherwise, that Seasonic manufactures
PCP&C's Silencers? All evidence I've seen indicates this is not true.

The reality is that PC Power & Cooling would LIKE to make
very good PSU, top possible quality in every unit. That
conflicts with the market, on their lower cost units they
have the costs of the manufacturer, PLUS their own overhead.
No wonder same thing costs more, they are entitled to charge
enough to make a fair living... but by the same token the
buyer is entitled to buy based on price, particularly when
the different is minimal and doesn't justify the price
difference.

Gee, we have gone from who makes PCP&C Silencer units (particularly
the Silencer 610) to a rant about PCP&C's pricing in general. You
don't like to stay on the topic, do you?

 

[UCLAN]

Towards the needs of the target system, yes that's possible.
Towards merely choosing a different transformer with
different current allocation, it's not necessarily a
justification for higher cost.

ACK! 1) The point was that the Silencer 610 was *not* a "rebadged"
Seasonic S12-600, and 2) there is no higher cost. The Silencer 610's
*retail* price is about the *same* as the S12-600's *discounted*
price. (Both being about $160 US.) So your ramble is not only
irrelevant, but incorrect as well.

Insufficient evidence to conclude this beyond a peak
momentary value. Perhaps it's true but their so-called spec
sheet on the website is pathetic, more like a sales flyer
than a spec sheet.

Insufficient evidence? The fact is that the unit has been safety
tested by UL at 49 amps continuous, not peak. If it were only
a peak rating, the UL label would specify it as peak. I can
see that you have never endured a UL audit.

Inferior, no... similar enough that the labels could be
swapped and most people would never know.

Yeah, nobody would notice the use of an 80mm fan on the rear

Overpriced, for the PSU itself yes... if you value the fan
swap and their QA cost, that's your call to make-

Again, you're ignoring the fact that both the Silencer 610 *retail*
and the Seasonic *discounted* price are about $160.

people in the industry do not feel it's priced
appropriately, as PCP&C has built a reasonably good name for
themselves to the extent that many people would choose one
if the cost weren't much higher. That's what they were
aiming for with the Silencer line, but it also means it
isn't as good as the Turbocools...

ACK! "That's what they were aiming for with the Silencer line" ??
Oh so wrong. The Silencer line was created (in 1986) for those who
wanted a *quieter* PSU (not a cheaper one) and was initially MORE
EXPENSIVE than the Turbo-Cool (due to the higher cost of the
Silencer fan.) Your premise is *way* off base.

 

[Garrot]

Pissing contest aside, my post was a direct response to the post
that claimed all of PCP&C products were overpriced and inferior
to his S12-600.

I never said any such thing. I just said the PCP&C is overpriced and that
they use 80mm fans when I prefer 120mm fans. A 120mmm fan moves a lot more
air using low rpm's. PCP&C just recently entered the market in Canada so
they were not even an option for me at the time when I bought the Seasonic.
My next PSU may well be a PCP&C if the price is right but it would have
been nice if they had replied to my email and gave me the info I requested.

 

[kony]

First of all, why do you keep answering my replies to Garrot?
Are you he?

Garrot wrote:
Final assembly, final inspection, and final
test performed by PCP&C. Where do *you* draw the line? Does PCP&C stuff
their PSUs' circuit boards? Definitely not. But I know that final
assembly, final inspection, and final test is done in Carlsbad, CA,
USA !! [Unlike Seasonics. <g>]

That's not necessarily a good thing, those most
knowledgeable about the unit would typically be those that
made it and by made I mean made, not finished assembly.

Hogwash. I have no idea what type of inspection/test procedures
are done in Taiwan. The *added* inspection/test done by PCP&C can
only be a positive thing, your rationalization notwithstanding.

Yes, further testing is a positive thing, but then again,
return shipping on a defective product costs less than the
premium on PCP&C PSU so it's a pretty penny to be paid for
that.

Would you mind repeating the evidence given in this thread that
indicates, overwhelmingly or otherwise, that Seasonic manufactures
PCP&C's Silencers? All evidence I've seen indicates this is not true.

I already linked 3 pictures, all of them made by Seasonic
and one a Seasonic branded.

You have no evidence they AREN'T made by Seasonic. We know
PC P&C didn't, so unless you had some other manufacturer in
mind?

Gee, we have gone from who makes PCP&C Silencer units (particularly
the Silencer 610) to a rant about PCP&C's pricing in general. You
don't like to stay on the topic, do you?

Seems I didn't start this tangent. A little introspection
might not hurt.

 

[kony]

ACK! 1) The point was that the Silencer 610 was *not* a "rebadged"
Seasonic S12-600,

Nope, it's a close relative.

and 2) there is no higher cost.

Why should it cost more for essentially the same PSU?

The Silencer 610's
*retail* price is about the *same* as the S12-600's *discounted*
price. (Both being about $160 US.) So your ramble is not only
irrelevant, but incorrect as well.

So sorry but you're wrong again. It is often on sale but
sold for $120.

http://www.xoxide.com/seasonic-s12-600w-psu-v2.html

this place recently RAISED it's price but it's still only
$140
http://www.jab-tech.com/product.php?productid=3402

here it is for $127... sold out too, but that's what happens
when the price is good.
http://www.case-mod.com/store/seaso...00w-600-watt-atx-sli-power-supply-p-1580.html

I don't even recall but does PCP&C have free shipping? If
not, the cost difference is even larger.

Insufficient evidence?
Yes

The fact is that the unit has been safety
tested by UL at 49 amps continuous, not peak.

Oh? Show us this test.
UL does not run continuous load tests. Frankly I don't
think it can even run continuously at 49A and PC Power &
Cooling conveniently forgot to clarify this.

What they DID spec was a continuous power of 610W, TOTAL.
Now lets see... 49A * 12V = 588A. Did you really believe
the other rails only had 22W then? Unfortunately in the
real world, a percentage of the transformer has to be
devoted to the rail, the secondary windings are fixed. For
it to ALSO be able to put out the 5V rating, we have to see
that 610W continuous power as the sum of the 5V and 12V
rails. Supposing the 12V is about 60% of the transformer
capacity, that's 0.6* 610 = 366W. 366W/12V = 30.5A.

Hmm, that is more in line with what Seasonic spec'd, funny
that.

If it were only
a peak rating, the UL label would specify it as peak.

UL does not make labels specifying wattage. PC Power &
Cooling does. UL may never see the final label.

PC Power and Cooling can put anything they want on the
label. UL does not validate the continuous wattage, but boy
do I wish they did, we'd be rid of a lot of (other) junk
generics years ago.

I can
see that you have never endured a UL audit.

I can see you don't have a clue about UL.

Yeah, nobody would notice the use of an 80mm fan on the rear
versus a 120mm fan on the bottom. Or the different cabling. <g>
And that's *before* they take the cover off.

You don't get it do you?
I could take one and swap the 'sinks and top panel/fan
pretty easily. That's WHAT THEY DO.

Again, you're ignoring the fact that both the Silencer 610 *retail*
and the Seasonic *discounted* price are about $160.

No, you're ignoring everything, apparently, including the
NORMAL $160 delivered price of the Seasonic as well as the
$130 discounted price. I wouldn't expect you to consider
these FACTS though, because fiction is easier to use to
support an idealism about PC P&C instead of recognizing that
they are a business and as such, have to charge a certain %
as the middleman and that cost gets passed on to consumers.

When the result is a premium unit like the Turbocool 510+W
units, great. When result is a little more expensive than
comparable PSU from several manufacturers, it's a different
story.

ACK! "That's what they were aiming for with the Silencer line" ??
Oh so wrong. The Silencer line was created (in 1986) for those who
wanted a *quieter* PSU (not a cheaper one) and was initially MORE
EXPENSIVE than the Turbo-Cool (due to the higher cost of the
Silencer fan.) Your premise is *way* off base.

I hope you're better at your day job.
The Silencer will pop like a firecracker if it's silent
putting out 610W. Do the math-

610/83% efficiency = 735W total
(I'm being generous, we don't know it'll have efficiency as
high as 83% at full load)

735W-610W= 125W

Do you seriously believe that while generating 125W
internally, it can quietly cool itself with a 80mm fan in a
pre-heated (in other words, a normal system) chassis? Not a
chance in hell. Maybe Antarctica.

 

[kony]

For
it to ALSO be able to put out the 5V rating, we have to see
that 610W continuous power as the sum of the 5V and 12V
rails. Supposing the 12V is about 60% of the transformer
capacity, that's 0.6* 610 = 366W. 366W/12V = 30.5A.

On second thought, the above is probably wrong. The percent
is likely closer to 70%, and to be optimistic and think it's
of the peak 670W instead of sustained 610W, that puts it
closer to 40A... but only if it's 40A PEAK, not sustained,
which brings us back to the issue of overspec'ing for
continuous output current, or rather, not over-spec'd but
omitted details in the spec sheet.

Taking the middle road, figuring 70% of the 610W,
..7*610=427, /12 = 36. Coincidence that this is about the
same as the 18+18 amps rating of the Seasonic? Maybe, but
doubtful given virtually same PCB inside the Seasonic.

 

[UCLAN]

Nope, it's a close relative.

Meaning what? That's it's a *different* Seasonic PSU? Still waiting
for you to post the evidence of that.

Why should it cost more for essentially the same PSU?

Gee, *you* griped above about it not having justification for its
higher cost. And you *still* haven't provided one iota of evidence
that it is "essentially the same PSU."

So sorry but you're wrong again.
Again?

It is often on sale but
sold for $120.

I was going by URL posted here which had it at $160 (Newegg?) Yeah.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817151025

And PCP&C dealers get it and sell it for much less than the retail $160.

As far as I'm concerned, the price is a wash.

I don't even recall but does PCP&C have free shipping? If
not, the cost difference is even larger.

All web orders qualify for free regular shipping.

Oh? Show us this test.
UL does not run continuous load tests.

Wrong again. They run continuous load tests as part of their
transformer core and winding temperature tests. This is one of
the first things checked, to make sure that the magnetics class
temperature is not being exceeded. I have attached these thermo-
couples myself, and had the UL rep watching over my shoulder.

UL does not make labels specifying wattage. PC Power &
Cooling does. UL may never see the final label.

UL allows its insignia to be put on the input/output label after
they have completed testing. A copy of the authorized label is
on file at UL. UL conducts unannounced audits to make sure only
authorized labels are being used. At lunch during one such audit,
the UL rep told me some hilarious stories of attempts to circumvent
this system. Big trouble if you get caught.

PC Power and Cooling can put anything they want on the
label. UL does not validate the continuous wattage,

Totally fictitious statement.

I can see you don't have a clue about UL.

You're in denial, Kony. Saying that I "don't have a clue about UL"
is only further exposing your own ignorance on the subject. The UL
label signifies safety. Safety against fire is part of the tests.
[I have scorched much cheesecloth during these tests.] Full rated
load temperature tests of both the output transformer windings and
core are also part of these tests. Deal with it.

You don't get it do you?
I could take one and swap the 'sinks and top panel/fan
pretty easily. That's WHAT THEY DO.

Who is "they" ?? PCP&C? They just "swap the 'sinks and top panel/fan" ?
You still haven't provided any evidence of this.

No, you're ignoring everything, apparently, including the
NORMAL $160 delivered price of the Seasonic

Newegg charges "normal" price?

When the result is a premium unit like the Turbocool 510+W
units, great. When result is a little more expensive than
comparable PSU from several manufacturers, it's a different
story.

Yeah, I love some of the customer feedback at the URL you gave

I hope you're better at your day job.
The Silencer will pop like a firecracker if it's silent
putting out 610W. Do the math-

You're totally evading your statement above about the Silencer
line being *created* to provide a lower cost PSU. You were dead
wrong, but now attempt to change the focus. Typical.

Let's see...you're wrong about UL; wrong about the reason the
Silencer line was created, have given absolutely no evidence
that the Silencer 610 is a rebadged Seasonic 12-600...not having
a very good day, are you?

 

[UCLAN]

My next PSU may well be a PCP&C if the price is right but it would have
been nice if they had replied to my email and gave me the info I requested.

What info did you request from them?

 

[kony]

Meaning what? That's it's a *different* Seasonic PSU? Still waiting
for you to post the evidence of that.

The picture showing the same layout, circuit board wasn't
enough? What do you consider evidence, will a PC P&C
employee need to walk up and tell you, or will it need be
the PC P&C President that does it?

Gee, *you* griped above about it not having justification for its
higher cost. And you *still* haven't provided one iota of evidence
that it is "essentially the same PSU."


Yes



I was going by URL posted here which had it at $160 (Newegg?) Yeah.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817151025

And PCP&C dealers get it and sell it for much less than the retail $160.

Much less?
I've already provided links regarding the identical
topology/board of the PC P&C, and links of lower price. If
you expect your random thoughts to be accepted, YOU TOO will
have to provide links showing this "must less than..."
figure. Further, PC P&C doesn't sell it for $160, they add
shipping @ about $11.50. It's quite rare to pay that much
to ship a mere PSU. I used to ship boxes with 2 or more PSU
and misc. bits for about that and this wasn't with a volume
discount they would have.

As far as I'm concerned, the price is a wash.

Then reality is a difficult thing for you to swallow.

All web orders qualify for free regular shipping.

Oh? Their web page click-through seems to have obscured
this. It's not on their homepage.

Is it on the Silencer 610 product page? Nope.
What if I click the "order" button on the product page?
Nope, cheapest shipping option is the ~ $11.50 as I already
mentioned.

OK then, what about clicking the "ordering" link at the top,
then "Order Online"? Nope.

Wrong again. They run continuous load tests as part of their
transformer core and winding temperature tests. This is one of
the first things checked, to make sure that the magnetics class
temperature is not being exceeded. I have attached these thermo-
couples myself, and had the UL rep watching over my shoulder.

UL does not do their testing by watching you fiddle with a
product. THEY do it.

UL allows its insignia to be put on the input/output label after
they have completed testing.

Yes, but it's not a fitness-for-purpose test, it's a safety
test.

A copy of the authorized label is
on file at UL. UL conducts unannounced audits to make sure only
authorized labels are being used. At lunch during one such audit,
the UL rep told me some hilarious stories of attempts to circumvent
this system. Big trouble if you get caught.

You have quite an imagination. They have no need to retest
designs already submitted until there is a significant
change, then the product is resubmitted.

Totally fictitious statement.

Actually it's obvious, all but the lowest-end PSU are UL
listed.

You're in denial, Kony. Saying that I "don't have a clue about UL"
is only further exposing your own ignorance on the subject. The UL
label signifies safety.

Yes. You're trying to imply it means more than that.

Safety against fire is part of the tests.

Yes, when the unit is overloaded, overtemp, it has to shut
down. They don't deny listing when the number on a label is
peak rather than sustained output. You seem completely
oblivious to this.

[I have scorched much cheesecloth during these tests.] Full rated
load temperature tests of both the output transformer windings and
core are also part of these tests. Deal with it.

I highly suspect you're making all this up because your
arguments have run out of steam.

Newegg charges "normal" price?

When it's not on sale, yes. What's your definition of
normal if not that? Since I already linked 3 different
places selling the Seasonic for less, and can provide at
least 5 more links if you're still foolish enough to argue
it, that'd make you look desperate enough that in context,
your entire argument must be to divert from the past points
you can't counter.

Here's another,
http://www.eastluna.com/hardware/details.php?id=0650
Although they wrote "sale price", everything on the site is
this "sale price".

and another,
http://iguana-micro.stores.yahoo.net/ses1260siatx.html

and another,
http://www.bluebonepc.com/catalog/detail.asp?id=PS-SS-S12600

These aren't the 5 links either, I could provide 5 more with
it still cheaper but already it seems obvious that you're an
idiot.

Yeah, I love some of the customer feedback at the URL you gave
for the Fortron/Sparkle "comparable" unit. No thanks. <g>

I don't expect you to like anything except PC P&C, and to
argue against every possible angle in favor of them because
you are a shill.

You're totally evading your statement above about the Silencer
line being *created* to provide a lower cost PSU. You were dead
wrong, but now attempt to change the focus. Typical.

Quite on topic. It is amusing that the more you post, the
lower the ratio of fact to nonsense. Turbocool with it's
higher airflow rate will be a lower liability (if anything)
at same wattage, IF they were equivalent quality. It costs
MORE instead. While it's a bit excessively priced too, at
least for that price you are getting something significantly
better for the $.

 

[Garrot]

What info did you request from them?

Who actually makes the PSU's. I know they fo the harnessing, testing and
modifications etc. but after being told they were either Seasonic and
Wintact parts I wanted confirmation from them as to who is their supplier.

 

[UCLAN]

Who actually makes the PSU's. I know they fo the harnessing, testing and
modifications etc. but after being told they were either Seasonic and
Wintact parts I wanted confirmation from them as to who is their supplier.

I don't think they'll tell you that. It varies so much from product to
product. Some are built for them to their specifications. They used to
give that information out, but got burned by one of their case builders
(back when they were in the case market.) They told customers who made
the cases, and enough customers went directly to the case maker. That
maker began selling those cases *without* PCP%C's specified quality
enhancements (deburring sheet metal, etc.) at a lower price. Word of
lousy quality got out, and PCP&C suffered the consequences. Same with
PSUs. They don't want people buying *what they think* is the same
product sold by PCP&C, when it isn't.

 

[UCLAN]

Yes, further testing is a positive thing, but then again,
return shipping on a defective product costs less than the
premium on PCP&C PSU so it's a pretty penny to be paid for
that.

So you would rather have a PSU fail (at an inconvenient moment)
have to take it out of the case, box it up, call for an RMA number,
address the box, and either call UPS or take it to UPS yourself.
*ON TOP* of the shipping charges. Your time must not be worth
very much. And, if no spare was handy, you'd have a dead computer
while your "bargain" PSU was repaired and sent back to you.

And, of course you compare the *retail* price of the
PCP&C unit to the discounted Internet price of this other PSU when
you talk about this massive premium. OK...

I already linked 3 pictures, all of them made by Seasonic
and one a Seasonic branded.

And what tells you that the three PCP&C PSUs pictured (I'll take
your word that they're PCP&C PSUs) were manufactured by Seasonic?
(I'll also take your word that the one with the different heatsinks
is actually a Seasonic. Why are there markings on the transformers
done with the same pen that marked "360" and "410" on the heatsinks?
And what does *any* of this have to do with who makes the Silencer 610?

You have no evidence they AREN'T made by Seasonic.

Heh, I have no evidence that they *AREN'T* made by Martians, either.
If you're asking me to prove a negative, you are truly getting
desperate.

Seems I didn't start this tangent.

No, you jumped in when I questioned something Garrot said about the
Seasonic 12-600 versus PCP&C's PSU's. So you didn't start it, you
hijacked it. You have expanded it far beyond what it originally was.

 

[UCLAN]

The picture showing the same layout, circuit board wasn't
enough? What do you consider evidence, will a PC P&C
employee need to walk up and tell you, or will it need be
the PC P&C President that does it?

You have posted URLs for pictures that somebody labeled as "360"
and "410" on the heatsinks, and are comparing them with another
PSU only labeled as "PC Modding Malaysia" with different heatsinks
(is that the one you say is a Seasonic?) and are saying that *this*
is proof that the Silencer 610 is actually a Seasonic S12-600?
That is a stretch even for you. Please explain your "logic."

<yawn> I don't really care if you agree.

In other words, that's all you got.

Much less?
I've already provided links regarding the identical
topology/board of the PC P&C, and links of lower price. If
you expect your random thoughts to be accepted, YOU TOO will
have to provide links showing this "must less than..."

Simply fill out the dealer forms and get access to that section
of the website. And you have provided NO links even hinting that
the Silencer 610 is even remotely related to the Seasonic S12-600.

As far as the price of the Silencer 610 versus the Seasonic S12-600,
you love to compare apples (retail price) to oranges (discount web
price.) Since our Canadian friend couldn't find one in Canada, I
checked a few Canadian websites. Gee, the first one I checked had
them both, and the PCP&C Silencer 610 was $4 CDN *cheaper* than the
S12-600. Gee, comparing oranges to oranges shows the PCP&C PSU isn't
really more expensive.

http://www.shoprbc.com/ca/index.php

Then reality is a difficult thing for you to swallow.

No, once you abandon your "apples/oranges" scheme, they're quite
comparable. Gee, let me compare the retail price of a Mitsubishi TV to
the web price of a Sony or a JVC. I wonder which one will be lower?

UL does not do their testing by watching you fiddle with a
product. THEY do it.

Wrong again. Once you are an accredited site, they come to you.

Yes, but it's not a fitness-for-purpose test, it's a safety
test.

How the hell do they get a transformer core and winding temperature
at 49a if the unit doesn't provide a steady 49a ?

You have quite an imagination. They have no need to retest
designs already submitted until there is a significant
change, then the product is resubmitted.

You have a reading comprehension problem. Nowhere do I claim that
they retest the unit. I said that they audit the manufacturer to
make sure the UL approved label is still being used. [They also
inspect a sample from stock to make sure no obvious changes have
been made. Re-read what I wrote above. Twice if necessary. Please
don't stoop to making stuff up.

Actually it's obvious, all but the lowest-end PSU are UL
listed.

Again, the reading comprehension. Your snappy retort has nothing to
do with my statement. Sigh...

Yes. You're trying to imply it means more than that.

Oh? Where? The UL insignia on the label means that the PSU is safe to
operate continuously at the voltages and currents listed. So, if it says
12v @ 49 amps, it's 49 *continuous* anps unless the label specifically
denotes it as *peak*.

Yes, when the unit is overloaded, overtemp, it has to shut
down. They don't deny listing when the number on a label is
peak rather than sustained output. You seem completely
oblivious to this.

A) They test for fire hazards other than overload, and B) unless
the label specifies *peak*, it is *continuous*. You seem completely
oblivious to this.

I highly suspect you're making all this up because your
arguments have run out of steam.

Ah, this is what you post if you've already tried "your completely
clueless" and you're beginning to realize you are wrong. I'd love
to get you in a poker game, you're so predictable.

When it's not on sale, yes. What's your definition of
normal if not that? Since I already linked 3 different
places selling the Seasonic for less, and can provide at
least 5 more links if you're still foolish enough to argue
it, that'd make you look desperate enough that in context,
your entire argument must be to divert from the past points
you can't counter.

The only comparison that's valid (oranges/oranges) is at a vendor
that sells both. I posted such a vendor, and the PCP&C product was
*less* expensive. Feel free to posts URLs of any vendors that sell
both products. But an apples/oranges comparison fits your theory
better, huh?

I don't expect you to like anything except PC P&C, and to
argue against every possible angle in favor of them because
you are a shill.

No, I just tire of invalid comparisons and leaps of logic I see
in many of the "YYY make ZZZ's PSUs" discussions. And the fact that
you continue to insist on comparing retail pricing with discount web
pricing is typical of that sort of thread.

Quite on topic. It is amusing that the more you post, the
lower the ratio of fact to nonsense. Turbocool with it's
higher airflow rate will be a lower liability (if anything)
at same wattage, IF they were equivalent quality. It costs
MORE instead.

Read the differences in specifications between the two (the much
tighter regulation of the TC510, etc.) The TC510 is a totally
different class of PSU. The fact you don't realize this speaks
volumes. But, it really isn't surprising.