[PL] 2004 VOTE DISCUSSION: FILE UTILITIES

O

omega

»Q« said:
IMO, it's worse. If I'm nagged every startup, closing the nag window
becomes part of an unthinking routine. If it's intermittent, I have to
pay more attention to the nag when it appears.

That does sound like it would be worse. I wonder if their next new feature,
for ver 6.0, will be to routinely swap the "cancel" and the "buy" buttons.
Nice how they've made a hash of the nag trigger date in the ini file so
that one can't disable the nagging easily.

I don't eval shareware that often (don't need to most times, due to the
wealth of freeware), but the experience I've had there has shown the usual
pattern for date tracking is putting a binary value in some bogus spot of
the reg, most popular is as a fake CLSID value; and those entries are easy
to clean up. It's ironic that the hardcore methodology arrives not from
the genuine payware front - but instead from a freeware program's fierce
determination to make you view their nags.
 
J

jason

»Q« said:
Do you really mean that you think PowerDesk is not nagware because
you don't personally find the its nag popups annoying? You keep
stating that no one would find them annoying, but even if that were
true, they are still nag windows.

Nope, that's not what I am saying. I am saying that because there are
long periods of time between the nags, it is a special case like
Trillian.
I will agree that the definition needs a slight tweak, but not the
one you suggest. It says that the nag window appears "at program
startup", but nag windows whieh pop up at any time make an app
nagware.

I wasn't involved in the earlier discussions re: the wares, so I can't
say why the definition was limited to startup. But assuming that was an
agreed upon definition (by the majority of participants), I'm only
proposing a slight tweak to the current definition, not an overhaul. The
tweak I am suggesting is simply to make clear whether a time element need
be involved when it comes to the nag screen. Because as it is, it seems
to imply that the nag be present EVERY time the program starts up, and
doesn't deal with those odd cases like PowerDesk and Trillian. (BTW,
I've never used Trillian so I hope I'm representing that issue
accurately).
 
O

Onno

john p. wrote in
One of the contributing factors to the closeness of the voting on some
apps is the lack of discrimination used by some voters on their
ballots. There were a few responses that looked to me to be little
more than a repost of the entire nominations list

That was my impression too.
 
O

omega

jason said:
I wasn't involved in the earlier discussions re: the wares, so I can't
say why the definition was limited to startup. But assuming that was an
agreed upon definition (by the majority of participants), I'm only
proposing a slight tweak to the current definition, not an overhaul. The
tweak I am suggesting is simply to make clear whether a time element need
be involved when it comes to the nag screen. Because as it is, it seems
to imply that the nag be present EVERY time the program starts up, and
doesn't deal with those odd cases like PowerDesk and Trillian. (BTW,
I've never used Trillian so I hope I'm representing that issue
accurately).

Or what may come in with MyIE2. Now that BloodChen has already instated
the nag within his code, I'm feeling unsure about what choices he might
take from there, with future releases. Current release, his design is
supposed to be one time only (bugginess aside). Next release, he could
easily choose the periodic nag.
 
O

omega

Onno said:
john p. wrote in

That was my impression too.

Susan's original post had 442 lines (about 20 or so of text comment,
before the list). Number of lines of the heaviest six posts -

414
343
342
317
181
178
 
T

tfog

About PowerDesk, I am both against it, and for it. I am against it
because, strictly speaking, it is both nagware, and adware.

Nagware. The screen comes up both upon open and upon close. The
opening screen tells you to buy the pro version, and tells you how
many times you have "taken a free ride." Most shareware I used, in the
old days before trial time-outs, where guilt was the method, even they
didn't apply as much pressure as PowerDesk.

Adware. The ad is built right into the main screen, taking up valuable
real estate. In a file manager, that makes it even worse, for that's
the time you need your screen space the most. Yet there you have it,
this program only allows you a reduced portion as your application
window, and the other part is the advertisement.

PowerDesk is just on the fuzzy edge of adware, not an extreme case.
Its nags and ads are too much for me, but not enough that I would have
felt strongly enough about the matter to bring it into PL remove
discussions.

Now what I like about it. I do not use at all the file manager
component (though others do). But PowerDesk, it's not a file manager
you get alone, but actually a whole suite of file utilities.

pdexplo.exe The file manager

pdfind.exe A find applet, that sits in the same menu locations as
the
windows Find, and works very much the same, but with
some added choices (including "append" and "refine",
for successive rounds of searching)

pdesk.exe A toolbar, menu launcher

sizemgr.exe A very good program for this type: directory space
usages.
Has all the explorer context-menu functions. A very
enhanced Find panel. Tag results in the file hierarchy
display. This has become a most interesting little toy
in v5.

pdync.exe Synch two folders. Like everything in the list, it runs
as
a standalone. Independent from the pdexplo.exe file
manager.

pddlghlp.exe Open/Save As dialog enhancer. Resizes. Tracks recent
folders
and files. Preview function in the Open dialog, if
quickview component installed.

So this makes PowerDesk a file utilities suite, not merely a file
manager, as is 2x explorer. All of the file utilities in that list,
they can run independently from the file manager.

My vote? Well, I dislike the file manager due to it arguably crossing
the line into adware. It'd be cleaner for PL to have this thing off
its list. And the fact that it didn't make top vote, then that could
happen without a lot of noise.

At the same time, I much ike the suite of utilities. (None of which
are adware or nagware). And to lose them all from PL, in one stroke,
for having a single file manager on the list, that feels like a loss.

So for my choice, I'll do like those folks did with the acceptable/
unacceptable threads. Place contradictory votes, in both locations. :)

Will Splash Killer eliminate the nag screen?
 
T

tfog

jason said:
»Q« said:
jason wrote:

[regarding PowerDesk]
I never even noticed the ad till this discussion and I've never
accidentally clicked on it. I don't consider it nagware, and it
certainly doesn't meet the PW defintion for either adware or
nagware.

It's been a long time since I used it. But upthread from here, in
<Karen says it
still has the nag screens at open and close. They don't require
clicking to dismiss?

I'm not sure if I've ever gotten a nag/splash screen upon opening. I
do get a splash screen *ocasionally* when I close, but it's very
rare...so rare in fact that I can't remember if it's a nag screen or
just a splash screen. I've just been spending the past 15 minutes
opening and closing PowerDesk and not getting a screen of *any* kind,
so I'll have to give it some more time. It's apparently timed so it
only displays after a long period of time...like maybe after a few
hours or so??

All I can say at this point is that whatever it does, it is not
annoying, so I've never paid any attention to it...and believe me, I'm
one of the easily-annoyed types who uses PTFB (Push That Freakin'
Button) when dealing with programs with nag screens!! But I agree
it's important to sort out what PowerDesk does so we can put the issue
to rest.

To make a long story short, I'll have to let a few hours pass, try
again, and then get back to you.

Will Splash Killer eliminate the nag/splash screen?
http://www.digitallis.co.uk/pc/downloads.html
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=

Nope, that's not what I am saying. I am saying that because there
are long periods of time between the nags, it is a special case
like Trillian.

I see. Sorry I misread you.
I wasn't involved in the earlier discussions re: the wares, so I
can't say why the definition was limited to startup.

I think it was because all the nagware we were familiar with at the
time nagged at startup.
But assuming that was an agreed upon definition (by the majority
of participants), I'm only proposing a slight tweak to the current
definition, not an overhaul. The tweak I am suggesting is simply
to make clear whether a time element need be involved when it
comes to the nag screen. Because as it is, it seems to imply that
the nag be present EVERY time the program starts up, and doesn't
deal with those odd cases like PowerDesk and Trillian. (BTW, I've
never used Trillian so I hope I'm representing that issue
accurately).

I'd propose simply removing the phrase "at program startup" from the
definition.
 
M

ms

omega wrote:
snip
Now what I like about it. I do not use at all the file manager component
(though others do). But PowerDesk, it's not a file manager you get alone,
but actually a whole suite of file utilities.

pdexplo.exe The file manager

pdfind.exe A find applet, that sits in the same menu locations as the
windows Find, and works very much the same, but with some
added choices (including "append" and "refine", for
successive rounds of searching)

pdesk.exe A toolbar, menu launcher

sizemgr.exe A very good program for this type: directory space usages.
Has all the explorer context-menu functions. A very enhanced
Find panel. Tag results in the file hierarchy display. This
has become a most interesting little toy in v5.

pdync.exe Synch two folders. Like everything in the list, it runs as
a standalone. Independent from the pdexplo.exe file manager.

pddlghlp.exe Open/Save As dialog enhancer. Resizes. Tracks recent folders
and files. Preview function in the Open dialog, if quickview
component installed.

So this makes PowerDesk a file utilities suite, not merely a file manager,
as is 2x explorer. All of the file utilities in that list, they can run
independently from the file manager.

Karen, after reading your description, I d/l PowerDesk. I was just
interested in the standalone utilities in it. Unfortunately, it is IIRC
the newer installer, and files can't be extracted without install.
BTW, thanks much for the detailed help on WinPack, plan to start using
it next week.

I see you are very involved in the voting, etc.

When the dust settles, is it possible to post those individual files to
alt.binaries.freeware as zip files in UUE format?

Thanks,

Mike Sa
 
J

jason

omega said:
PDEXPLO.INI-------------------------------------------
[Usage]
Count=66
Date=CQQPBPIGFSLHGKDUDKNNMOMPPPIUMLDM
SplashDate=EQQPBPIGFSLHGKDUDKNNMOMPBQIUMLDM

Copy my .ini to your Powerdesk folder, if you're curious to see the
screen. You'll see where they force you to click you to click "buy" or
"cancel" to get in the door.

Not to beat an almost-dead horse, but why would copying your ini file to
my folder result in an immediate nag screen? I thought we established
you don't see a nag until after some undetermined period of time...
(scratch head).

BTW, just for completeness, here is my ini:

[Usage]
Count=738
Date=QUQPBPIGFSLHGKDUDKNNMOMPNTIUMLDM
SplashDate=IHPPBPIGFSLHGKDUDKNNMOMPIHFUMLDM

I took it out of my folder, shut PowerDesk down, reinserted it and didn't
get a nag screen...and didn't expect to.
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=

Not to beat an almost-dead horse, but why would copying your ini
file to my folder result in an immediate nag screen? I thought we
established you don't see a nag until after some undetermined
period of time... (scratch head).

The Date and SplashDate seem to be hashes of the timing of the nag
screens. Unless they are using system-specific info for the
encryption, I'd expect the hash that causes Karen to get the popup
would also cause you to get it.
BTW, just for completeness, here is my ini:

[Usage]
Count=738
Date=QUQPBPIGFSLHGKDUDKNNMOMPNTIUMLDM
SplashDate=IHPPBPIGFSLHGKDUDKNNMOMPIHFUMLDM

I took it out of my folder, shut PowerDesk down, reinserted it and
didn't get a nag screen...and didn't expect to.

I wouldn't expect you to either, if you reinserted the same thing that
was already there before. I'm not clear on whether you tried it with
Karen's

Date=CQQPBPIGFSLHGKDUDKNNMOMPPPIUMLDM
SplashDate=EQQPBPIGFSLHGKDUDKNNMOMPBQIUMLDM

or not.
 
S

Susan Bugher

jason said:
Heh. I learned from last time around. Last year, for example, I voted for
two organizers - Keynote and Treepad - even though I liked Treepad better.
Come to find out Treepad almost didn't make it in. If I had voted ONLY for
Treepad, I could have made a difference. This year I voted for Treepad
only. When you learn how the votes are processed, you end up being very
discriminating, and voting for just one program in a category when you
might have chosen two before. I'm not sure if that's how the process is
supposed to work, but that's kind of the natural outcome.

It's not the way the process is *supposed* to work *but* the problem is
*innate* when you can vote for multiple candidates in an election. As
you noted voting for just one candidate gives that one vote more power.

Voting for only one candidate when you could vote for several is called
plunking in politcal circles. (Plunking occurs most often in judical
elections.) It is a distortion of the *intended* voting process but it
can be effective if enough voters plunk.

FWIW the vote count seems to indicate that there aren't many plunkers in
ACF. ;)

Susan
--
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org
PL2003: http://www.pricelessware.org/2003/about2003PL.htm
PL2004 Review: http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/2004nominationsPL.php
alt.comp.freeware FAQ (short) - maintained by John F.
http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/faq.html
 
J

jason

»Q« said:
jason said:
Not to beat an almost-dead horse, but why would copying your ini
file to my folder result in an immediate nag screen? I thought we
established you don't see a nag until after some undetermined
period of time... (scratch head).

The Date and SplashDate seem to be hashes of the timing of the nag
screens. Unless they are using system-specific info for the
encryption, I'd expect the hash that causes Karen to get the popup
would also cause you to get it.
BTW, just for completeness, here is my ini:

[Usage]
Count=738
Date=QUQPBPIGFSLHGKDUDKNNMOMPNTIUMLDM
SplashDate=IHPPBPIGFSLHGKDUDKNNMOMPIHFUMLDM

I took it out of my folder, shut PowerDesk down, reinserted it and
didn't get a nag screen...and didn't expect to.

I wouldn't expect you to either, if you reinserted the same thing that
was already there before. I'm not clear on whether you tried it with
Karen's

Date=CQQPBPIGFSLHGKDUDKNNMOMPPPIUMLDM
SplashDate=EQQPBPIGFSLHGKDUDKNNMOMPBQIUMLDM

or not.

Just did...Whoa! I don't think I've EVER seen that screen! All I can say
is if that screen has ever popped up on my computer, it must have been at
least a year ago. That is *very* strange. Now I see what you guys are
talking about. I see nothing of the kind when I use PowerDesk, so had no
idea what you were talking about. I'd really like to know how my ini
differs so dramatically from Karen's.

And just so we document this, the version I am using is 5.0.1.2.
 
S

Susan Bugher

omega said:
Susan's original post had 442 lines (about 20 or so of text comment,
before the list). Number of lines of the heaviest six posts -

414
343
342
317
181
178

I think one of those posts had comments . . .

The top five: 398, 336, 331, 213, 164 votes

Susan
--
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org
PL2003: http://www.pricelessware.org/2003/about2003PL.htm
PL2004 Review: http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/2004nominationsPL.php
alt.comp.freeware FAQ (short) - maintained by John F.
http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/faq.html
 
D

DC

omega wrote in said:
I'd say that unique, alone, it is not an adequate criterion. The function
should be unique + widely-used. (Whether the latter criterion is met here,
re browsing that type of file system, I'm not attempting to guess.)

I would say that, with the current trend of folks switching to linux,
many of whom prefer to keep a dual boot setup (with Win9x or whatever)
as a crutch during the initial transition, the demand for such a file
browser will skyrocket.

Yes, I know we aren't discussing software futures, here, but maybe the
lack of votes is a reflection of the minority of acf participants who
already run linux.

I personally find 8 votes (+ my 1 belated vote) to be quite
representative of the linux voice in this predominantly Win-ware group.
 
S

Susan Bugher

DC said:
I would say that, with the current trend of folks switching to linux,
many of whom prefer to keep a dual boot setup (with Win9x or whatever)
as a crutch during the initial transition, the demand for such a file
browser will skyrocket.

Yes, I know we aren't discussing software futures, here, but maybe the
lack of votes is a reflection of the minority of acf participants who
already run linux.

I personally find 8 votes (+ my 1 belated vote) to be quite
representative of the linux voice in this predominantly Win-ware group.

I'll add Explore2fs.

Susan
--
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org
PL2003: http://www.pricelessware.org/2003/about2003PL.htm
PL2004 Review: http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/2004nominationsPL.php
alt.comp.freeware FAQ (short) - maintained by John F.
http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/faq.html
 
S

Susan Bugher

DC said:
These are very valuable programs and have no equal on the PL list.
Dropping these will kill a whole category.




Again, dropping these is a bad idea. These programs are the defacto
standards in par2 and par validation and recovery, respectively.

JMHO, of course. Please consider keeping these.

(Dammit, I hate missing the voting... }:O| Bah!)

I'll add QuickPar.

Susan
--
Pricelessware: http://www.pricelessware.org
PL2003: http://www.pricelessware.org/2003/about2003PL.htm
PL2004 Review: http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/2004nominationsPL.php
alt.comp.freeware FAQ (short) - maintained by John F.
http://clients.net2000.com.au/~johnf/faq.html
 

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