(OT) (PL) Regarding Pricelessware Site, Genna, Susan, Garrett et. All

[josiah-jenkins]

Garrett wrote on 1-7-2004 :

Welcome back, Garrett, and a lot of success with the continuation of
the Pricelessware site.

Like I already said in an earlier thread I hope that there will be a
situation where 2 sites about Pricelessware

Maybe I'm not grasping this, but . . .
How can there be *TWO* sites called Pricelessware ?

There'll be the pricelessware.org site, owned by Genna and
operated by Garrett
and
A.N.OTHER.site operated by Susan, assisted by Burnr.

Why what appears to be a desperate attempt to hold onto
the Pricelessware name ?

If this ng is *REALLY* to be part of the future equation,
why not something like ACFreeware.xxx ?

I also hope that the whole situation will be cleared within
a short matter of time.

Seconded !

-- The Despicable Stewart
-- Perfidious Alban
-- http://www.ian-stewart.dsl.pipex.com/

 

[Semolina Pilchard]

Jolly good, you say... PL is back online; hey Susan STFU and get back
on board, host your little ego site and do all the work as always and
Genna and Garrett will throw you a few crumbs of recognition from the
'official' (wtf does that mean?) PL site.

I felt I should snip because it was long. I hardly knew where to
snip, because I agree with every word you say. This is a fine
analysis.

Maybe Genna and Garrett will start contributing to the group in a real
sense; I don't know. I do know that spending a few dollars a year in
order to hold control of a domain is not much of a contribution. Nor
is doing a bit of HTML work at Genna/SoS's request because one is
bored.

If I was Susan in this week's climate, I would resign again; your
'mediation' appears to be working towards this.

I hope and believe she will not, though I understand your thinking. I
believe she has the backing of the majority.

 

[Susan Bugher]

Understood. But please note, that if someone contacts me privately and
requests that the contents of that private conversation be kept
private, I will respect the request unless otherwise forced by law to
reveal that information.

Of course.

Please note, It has not been proven that I am in touch with reality.

noted

Now, was this vote done at the request of the users of
the newsgroup, or at your request?

It was at my request.

Was everyone in favor of conducting

a vote?

There was no vote on whether a vote should be held *nor* was there a
vote on whether a vote should be held on whether a vote should be held.
.. .

And who has the right to conduct such a vote?

IMO any participant in ACF.

At this point, I still feel the vote was tainted too much by a very bad
situation. Now, if a properly handled vote is conducted and the
results show that everyone wants to move the site, then I will do this;
I will continue to run pricelessware.org, but I will not partake in the
handling of the voting process for pricelessware. I will ask for
permission to post the results on pricelessware.org.

You are entitled to your opinion. You can propose another vote.

Also, due to the length of the threads regarding this situation, was
the vote for moving the site, or for starting a new site? Was the vote
to see who handles the pricelessware voting process? Was it vote on
who has the right to conduct the voting? Just what exactly was this
voting for? Move it, Clone it, Mirror it, Start fresh?

The first post in the "Irreconcilable Differences" thread has that
information.

We can all work together, we can all work against each other, but
either way, let's get the ground rules set here so everyone can get on
with their lives.

Good idea.

Susan

 

[Susan]

I totally agree and would like a vote taken as described above. I missed the
other vote somehow

Susan G.

 

[John Fitzsimons]

On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 17:16:47 -0400, Susan Bugher

The alt.comp.freeware newsgroup has voted to *move* the Pricelessware
List web site.

< snip >

No, they voted that YOU move your files to another site if you were
unwilling to cooperate with Genna.

So do it. Do what the group asked you to do.

 

[John Fitzsimons]

Greetings to everyone,

I just want to make it known that my intent regarding this is not to
make waves or cause any trouble. No one asked me to do this, I offered
to do this because

Thanks Garrett. Nice to see you back. Your previous help in the
newsgroup, and your previous freeware sites, both point to a very
positive future for ACF participants.

I thought that maybe it might put an end to the angst and ill feelings.

< snip >

I wouldn't count on that. I expect Susan is pretty furious that her
attempt at manipulating ACF readers didn't result in her getting total
control over everything.

 

[R. L.]

Regardless if pricelessware.org is allowed to participate
in the voting process, I will make available text files of
the listings on the site. This way, anyone who wants to
mirror, can do so with their own design. The text will be
made into a text CSV file, so it should be easy enough for
anyone to parse out and implement into their own design.
This also makes mirroring a little easier on the bandwidth.

This is a great idea!! I was going to ask about that
thanks!




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[R. L.]

The alt.comp.freeware newsgroup has voted to *move* the
Pricelessware List web site. I'm sure we can work out
arrangements for a mirror site if you would like to have
one.

When the vote were conducted, it was never really clear that
what the "move" is in a more concrete term. Moving the files
do not mean to move the site per se.

It sounds like to me you were thinking that there was only ONE
official site of Pricelessware and now you insist that the
*NEW* site needed to be thought of or called "official". But
this was all along a misconception, not just by you, I was
thinking that way, too. But I realized that it is unsounded.

The reason is that even before you come Genna was just
offering her space for the posters here. Pricelessware.org
..net or .whatever, was only "thought of" as an official site
and we conventionally agree upon it because there was no
alternative (no one offer more space or another place to post
the pricelessware result).

But now, this obviously has changed. You also made an offer
to setting up one and so as Genna and other people. I don't
see why one want to call one "official" but the other "not
offical". I know you don't mean to sound this way but it does
sound like a dictator's talk here.

I think everyone who wants to contribute, including you, SOS,
Genna, Garrett, or anyone volunteer to help either site,
should be equally official - as long as they are working to
promote freeware.



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[R. L.]

Two sites about freeware, for sure; no problem. But is
'Pricelessware' not an a.c.f concept?

Yes, but "Pricelessware" refers to a set of information
stating a list of ware that came out fromt he anually polls
here. As you already have quoted:

'The best of the best in Windows ¸ Freeware,
as determined by the readers of alt.comp.freeware'

So, it does not refer to the site. It is copyrighted because
no one who have a piece of software should claim that it won
the pricelessware award if it didn't.

A newsgroup tends to have a shifting power dynamic which a
'mediator' ought to be recognising. I've been here on and
off under different nyms for more than 3 year now and have
never heard of Genna until this mess started. Susan has
always been a prominent presence in the group. SoS has
always been a prominent presence in the group. Who on earth
is Garrett?

Does this even matter? Just as I don't know you and you don't
know me, either. When Susan first came on board, nobody knew
her either, and she has contributed many now. Everyone has a
start.


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[R. L.]

Susan Bugher <[email protected]> says in

Well the way I read it he's claiming pricelessware.org is
going to continue to be the "official" site of the
Pricelessware List and he's now the official spokesperson
for alt.comp.freeware.

Susan, why do you sound so hostile, honestly it does not sound
like you at all. I don't think Garret is claiming this and
even if he did, why would you even care? No body, including
you and I can make such claim.

ACF *voted* to *move* the Pricelessware List web site. If
Garrett wants to *overturn* that vote he should ask for
*another* *vote* - *NOT* simply ignore the wishes of the
newsgroup.

Why are you posting accusatively? I respect you a lot and I
know that you must be feeling fustrated about the whole
situation (and I understand). But I don't think Garrett wants
to "overturn" anything. You negative tone would only make
matter worst (I assume that you still have your heart in the
right place).

Now if Garrett says that pricelessware.org is simply going
to be an unofficial mirror site I'll be a happy camper
*and* I'll offer my most humble apologies for
misunderstanding his first post.

We never really voted on having an *official* site. The one
we had can be "thought of" sort of as an "official" (a nice
idea). In addition, when we vote for moving, we thought there
would only be one person offering the space, but now there are
more than one. Since more than one persons are willing to
contribute, no one should be excluded and there shouldn't be
one site more "official-er" than the other.

I thought orginally you found that it was fustrated about
working under the domain restrictions and want to be able to
do what you like so you proposed to have the site move so you
will be working happily. This is understandable. And I
thought this has been done. Now, I found that you kind of
lost me there.

Since all the disscussions you brought up, it happens that
both you and someone else are willing to contribute. Why
can't you guys work together? Why make bad comments like that
with negative tone to spoil the group? I am sure you don't
mean it but you comments are hurtful (and will be serving
trolls who want to stir things up). Please claim down (and
perhaps be back to the good old Susan again?)



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[Susan Bugher]

Susan Bugher <[email protected]> says in

We never really voted on having an *official* site. The one
we had can be "thought of" sort of as an "official" (a nice
idea).

Hi RL,

We did vote on *moving* the Pricelessware List.

<q>
I would like to move the Pricelessware List to a new location.

The Pricelessware List has been hosted on other sites in the past (IIRC
the last move was about two years ago).

In addition, when we vote for moving, we thought there
would only be one person offering the space, but now there are
more than one. Since more than one persons are willing to
contribute, no one should be excluded and there shouldn't be
one site more "official-er" than the other.

The vote ended June 28. 37 votes in favor of a move, 14 opposed.

Garrett's first post to ACF this year was on June 23. Garrett could have
offered his services as webmaster of the pricelessware.org site then or
any time in the next several days while voting on the proposed move was
still open.

The vote to move to a new site could have and would have been held open
for as long as it took to reach a group decision. Anyone who had cast a
vote in favor of the move would have been free to change their ballot.

That didn't happen. Voting closed on Monday, June 28th. Today is
Thursday.

Today - without warning, without any discussion in the newsgroup an
announcement is made that the pricelessware.org site "endures".

Doesn't look much like democracy in action to me. . .

Susan

 

[Mark Warner]

I wouldn't count on that. I expect Susan is pretty furious that her
attempt at manipulating ACF readers didn't result in her getting total
control over everything.

You "expect"???? It appears pretty obvious to me...

 

[*ProteanThread*]

Thanks Garrett. Nice to see you back. Your previous help in the
newsgroup, and your previous freeware sites, both point to a very
positive future for ACF participants.


< snip >

I wouldn't count on that. I expect Susan is pretty furious that her
attempt at manipulating ACF readers didn't result in her getting total
control over everything.

more like back fired on her and still back firing (sounds like an old vw bug
to me)


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[R. L.]

Hi RL,

We did vote on *moving* the Pricelessware List.

<q>
I would like to move the Pricelessware List to a new
location.

The Pricelessware List has been hosted on other sites in
the past (IIRC the last move was about two years ago).
</q>

I understand this, Susan, and I also understand your concern.
But my point is, yes one can *move* the existing files that
have the Pricelessware List on them (and it was very nice of
you to ask because those files are indeed, primarily your
creations, with your designs, your thoughts, your efforts, and
your personal touches). Yet, who has the right to say that it
is "official" and represent all of us? In addition, one
cannot *move* the list per se because the list come out from
this group and here is its true home. The website is just its
channel. The more websites the better if one truely love
freeware.

If one want the/a site to represent him/her as a member here,
one is free to do so and think of it so. And you also can
have a *poll* (not really "vote", though) to see how many
people would perfer to think of it as an official site, but it
doesn't mean that people won't or can't change their mind, and
it also doesn't mean that those who do not agree with the poll
result need to be restricted by it at all.

In fact, more precisely speaking, a lot of so call "votes" in
the groups are "polls". Someone has an idea (or have
something to contribute), that person has perfect right and
power to do something even without asking, but are nice enough
to be devoted to this group and conduct a "poll" and ask for
opinions. And this is an extremely nice spirit. However,
this is *far* from a binding voting process. Firstly, we are
not a real collective as a "voting process" would truely
imply. Second, everyone who come in with different identities
could vote. Granted, the whole thing is all in good faith.
But at the very least, that particular voting about *moving*
did not have a "call and discussion for the validity of the
motion" did not have "a discussion period", did not have a
pre-announced open and close date, people who were asked to
voted were not *really* given enough details as to what was
going on, either. Many questions were still hanging there
even after the vote was so called "closed". How could this be
far to *every* member even if one think it could be called a
vote?

Of course, as I said it is all in good faith, but it is indeed
truely an "opinion poll". And the opinion at that time was
that there were no objection to have the current list be
hosted in a place so that you would find it to be easy to work
with. In addition, some voters might perhaps think that they
are having little choices (no one seem to want to do it) and
you have been so lovely in doing it and why not make things
easier for you. And indeed this can easily be achieved even
you have not conducted that poll (if you want opinions, can
just by by asking and proper discussions).

Whatever the result of that poll was, we might agree/disagree
to have that particlar list (I mean the files) to be put in a
different site, but no one did disagree for it to continue to
exist on Genna's site either (and in fact, it sounds like many
would love that, too). And no one can say that which one is
an "official site", either. The bottomline is, given the
current situation, do we even *need* an official site? I
think it will only make matter worst.

The vote ended June 28. 37 votes in favor of a move, 14
opposed.

Garrett's first post to ACF this year was on June 23.
Garrett could have offered his services as webmaster of the
pricelessware.org site then or any time in the next several
days while voting on the proposed move was still open.

What's wrong with him offering now? It should have no
conflicts or whatever with what you are doing. In fact,
anyone are encourged to offering help to this group ANYTIME.
This is the spirit of freeware, being open, non-exclusive,
don't you think so? You offered to help two years ago and you
did a great job for two years. Not to mention he is just
offer *additional* help.

Today - without warning, without any discussion in the
newsgroup an announcement is made that the
pricelessware.org site "endures".

Susan, having being here long enough, you know that some
members in this group sometimes post with negative tones just
out of fustration, using not the best choice of words (and I
am sure everyone does that from time to time). So please
don't be too upset with that. Sometimes, they are who they
are and that is in a way what bring favor to this group; and
you grow to love that after you have been here for long
enough, right?

Doesn't look much like democracy in action to me. . .

Yes, democracy is important, but sometimes it is not
everything Susan, I am really eagar to see both you and
Garrett's new sites; and also to see the good old nice Susan
come back. Don't let all this get into you, please ?


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[Ben Cooper]

Two sites about freeware, for sure; no problem. But is
'Pricelessware' not an a.c.f concept?
A newsgroup tends to have a shifting power dynamic which a 'mediator'
ought to be recognising. I've been here on and off under different
nyms for more than 3 year now and have never heard of Genna until this
mess started. Susan has always been a prominent presence in the group.
SoS has always been a prominent presence in the group. Who on earth is
Garrett?

'The best of the best in Windows © Freeware,
as determined by the readers of alt.comp.freeware'

The above phrase suggests a measure of group dynamic/democracy does it
not?
Which now looks to be in danger of going out of the window as the old
guard clique make a few decisions behind closed doors and patronise
the person who has been doing the work the last few years.
And your 'mediation' (LOL) enables this.
Jolly good, you say... PL is back online; hey Susan STFU and get back
on board, host your little ego site and do all the work as always and
Genna and Garrett will throw you a few crumbs of recognition from the
'official' (wtf does that mean?) PL site.

Maybe Genna and Garrett will start contributing to the group in a real
sense; I don't know. I do know that spending a few dollars a year in
order to hold control of a domain is not much of a contribution. Nor
is doing a bit of HTML work at Genna/SoS's request because one is
bored.

If I was Susan in this week's climate, I would resign again; your
'mediation' appears to be working towards this.

What is your 23 yr mediation cv btw?

Interesting observations.

 

[Ben Cooper]

Greetings to everyone,

I just want to make it known that my intent regarding this is not to
make waves or cause any trouble. No one asked me to do this, I
offered to do this because I thought that maybe it might put an end
to the angst and ill feelings.

Maybe, but we all know the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I don't recall seeing your offer presented to this group before SOS'
announcement.

I did not come back to ACF because of this situation, nor did anyone
from ACF contact me regarding this situation at all. It was chance
that I just decided to drop in to see how things were going.

You may be telling the truth, but I find it hard to believe. It seems a
bit serendipitous to me.

I can't comment about Susan because I do not know Susan and I will not
allow this situation to be the basis of my opinion of Susan... I will
base my opinion of Susan on any contact that I may have with Susan.

You could base your opinion of Susan on all the work she's done to make
Pricelessware what it is today.
Although, I would like to see what you bring to the table. When do you
expect to have your version of the site available?
Maybe, your efforts would better spent helping to organize the new and
approved Pricelessware site.

[snip]

I'm not doing this for myself, other than it will give me something to
do these days. I am here to serve merely as a tool to the
Pricelessware site, concept and intent. It is not my site per say,
but like anyone, I may add my own personal touch now and then (update
the site design).

That's how Susan started. Be careful that as you stare into the abyss
the abyss stares back at you.
Once you have remade the pricelessware.org site in your own image, are
you sure "Genna" will not, someday, decide it can be "improved" whether
you like it or not?

I will not impose my will on anyone here and I will take suggesstions,
comments without prejudice, regardless of who, what, where etc.... My
opinion is no greater or lesser than anyone else here. I am not
interested in cliques or playing politics and will not participate in
such things. I'm not here to brown nose anyone's hind end, nor do I
want anyone trying to ram their nose up my tail pipe. I'm not here to
make friends or otherwise. I'm not here to server any single personal
agenda, but I am here to server the agenda of the whole, and I'm not
talking about my hole. Who I am and what my credentials are mean
nothing in this matter. It should only matter that I'm just willing
and happy to keep to help keep this site going and that I be as fair
and as open as possible... Ok, yes, a degree of knowledge in HTML is
helpful, and I at least have that covered.

It's good to see that you have stated your intentions. Your intentions
seem to be in agreement with the majority of the people who participated
in the decision to move the site away from "Genna's" control.

Who you are and what your credentials are *do* mean something. Now that
we know "Genna" is a fake person, how are we to know you aren't? How
convenient of you to arrive at such an opportune time.

I have no intent of making any profit from the site, or personal gain.
I may however, request donations if the need arises in order to keep
the site going. If it comes to that point, it would obviously be for
server costs and or domain payment. I would like to avoid advertising
BS on the site and will avoid it at all possible cost, and that means
avoiding advertising being imposed from free hosting. If all else
fails, and the site is in danger of being shut down due to lack of
funding, I will resort to the use of advertising and or moving to a
free host which may or may not impose advertising on the site, but
this is a last ditch effort. If donations or advertising revenue do
come into play, and there is excess funds left over, the money will
either be set aside for future costs of the site, or donated to some
charity.

And this group will have some say about that, right?
No, I guess we won't since *you* now seem to be able to make those
decisions regardless of any opposition.

Last, I am not here to flame, insult, talk down to, intimidate or
anything else negative to anyone. We can all agree, disagree or
whatever, but the point is, that the site is intended to be a beacon
for anyone and everyone who is seeking possibly the best freeware on
the internet. Personal issues and situations should not be a factor,
and I hope to keep such things unrelated to the site and it's content.

I would like to ask everyone to please stop bashing Genna and Susan
and to just let this issue go. How long can a dead horse be beaten to
insure it's dead? Trust me, from what I've seen, the horse is dead
and rotted to the bone already. There's no meat left on it to pick
at..

Trust me, this issue isn't dead yet.

You don't have to like me, you don't have to like Susan and you don't
have to like Genna to be a part of the Pricelessware concept, you only
have to like freeware to be a part of this. Hey, you don't even have
to be a part of this, just use the info provided to your own desire.


I apologize if my jumping in like this has caused anyone any problems
with regards to this matter. It is not my intent to cause anyone any
problems.

You can confess your sins if you like, but you are not absolved.

BTW, would you please remove me from-
http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/CD2004PL.htm

I don't want to be affiliated with the owner's of this site. I would
have asked you privately, but I didn't see any way to contact you.

 

[REM]

John Fitzsimons <[email protected]> wrote:

Susan Bugher

No, they voted that YOU move your files to another site if you were
unwilling to cooperate with Genna.

<[email protected]>

Above is the original message calling for a vote.

Fourth paragraph:

"I would like to move the Pricelessware List to a new location."

Ending paragraph:

"Questions, comments and *votes* (move/stay) please."

 

[Garrett]

Ben Cooper wrote:

BTW, would you please remove me from-
http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/CD2004PL.htm

Your request is noted and will be verified before the site is next
updated.

Best regards,
-Garrett

 

[R. L.]

Maybe, but we all know the road to hell is paved with good
intentions. I don't recall seeing your offer presented to
this group before SOS' announcement.

Why does this even matter? Why don't we give people benefit
of the doubts? Anyone offer to help and to be devoted to
freeware should be welcomed. Susan offered her help two years
ago and if everyone was doubting her we would not have come so
far.

You may be telling the truth, but I find it hard to
believe. It seems a bit serendipitous to me.

I see that you heart must be in the right place since you
offer to help on the Pricelessware CD. However, no offense,
this type of comments IMO would not help the group at this
point, don't you think so? In this group, everything are sort
of done in good faith. If we lost this, where would we be?

You could base your opinion of Susan on all the work she's
done to make Pricelessware what it is today.
Although, I would like to see what you bring to the table.
When do you expect to have your version of the site
available? Maybe, your efforts would better spent helping
to organize the new and approved Pricelessware site.

It is a matter of opinion, though. I think the more the
merrier, too.

That's how Susan started. Be careful that as you stare into
the abyss the abyss stares back at you.
Once you have remade the pricelessware.org site in your own
image, are you sure "Genna" will not, someday, decide it
can be "improved" whether you like it or not?

This negative comment, again, does not help. There seems to
have been misundertanding and miscommunciation going on
between Susan and Genna. No one know the whole story and we
don't need to. But why all that hostility comes against
Genna? Whether she is good or bad, bad mouthing her here is
not a decent thing to do (just like no one should bad mouth
Susan either).

Who you are and what your credentials are *do* mean
something. Now that we know "Genna" is a fake person, how
are we to know you aren't? How convenient of you to arrive
at such an opportune time.

Perhaps you should read some posts in alt.comp.discussions,
too. It seems to me that this did not come out of nowhere.
However, again this is irrelevant.

And this group will have some say about that, right?
No, I guess we won't since *you* now seem to be able to
make those decisions regardless of any opposition.

We have no right to oppose. The site belong to Genna and the
content of the Princelessware list is open domain, anyone can
check it out from usnet. No one can oppose to anyone who want
to report the annual poll/vote Pricelessware results posted in
the usenet. People can be suspusious about the intention of
Genna, Susan, Garrett, SOS, or anyone who volunteer, keeping
the resource and information *OPEN* is the ONLY way to fight
against potiential flaws or bad intentions (don't you see
that?). No one have exclusive claim on anything, everyone has
access to the valuable infomation of the results of the annual
polls. No spyware or commercial ware can claim that they are
pricelessware, too. You see why making it open is so
important?

Trust me, this issue isn't dead yet.

That doesn't sound constructive, either.

BTW, would you please remove me from-
http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/CD2004PL.htm

I don't want to be affiliated with the owner's of this
site. I would have asked you privately, but I didn't see
any way to contact you.

It is sad. But hope that you would continue to help in some
ways (I mean it )


--
RL
*******************************************
Unofficial Adaware Updater:
http://home.earthlink.net/
~ringomei/Unofficial_adaware_updater.html

Little (File) Backer Upper:
http://home.earthlink.net/
~ringomei/Backup_tool_Backer_Upper.html

Uptime Quickie; Lefty Animated Cursors;
http://home.earthlink.net/~ringomei/page2.html
*******************************************

 

[Ben Cooper]

Ben Cooper wrote:



Your request is noted and will be verified before the site is next
updated.

OK, I'll rephrase it.
Remove my contact information from-
http://www.pricelessware.org/2004/CD2004PL.htm

I demand that you remove it *now*. This is *not* a request.