Microsoft dampens Vista sales forecast

[Saucy]

Rearranged for clarity



The first problem is that most average joes don't even know what an
operating system is.

Microsoft have spent 25 years exploiting that ignorance and reinforcing
it by denying mainstream OEMs the right to offer alternative OSs.

However things are changing with Apple's rising profile and today's
youngsters being vastly more computer literate than their forebears.

--

Immunity is better than innoculation.

Peter

25 years of exploiting ignorance? Huh? Are you referring to Windows 95
hysteria? Things just came together. Lack of decent competition (Apple too
expensive and inflexible, Linux too raw, UNIX too haughty, IBM letting OS/2
languish), combined with a sudden interest in computers (fueled by the rise
of the WWW) and, Bam!, Microsoft is in a dominant position. Sure in the gold
rush there was a decided Wild Wild West aire to it all, and Microsoft was
dragged through the courts etc. etc. to pay for its success. But really, if
the computing public didn't know by 1997 that there were alternatives, then
that's there own fault. Heck, Apple, PET, Commadore etc. etc. were well
known since the 80's so I don't know what you are talking about. You're just
spouting anti-Microsoft garbage.

 

[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

Peter;
Very true.
But the point is Microsoft relinquishes NOTHING on the Microsoft servers.
As for other servers, after they have taken the data from the Microsoft
servers, it is in their control.
As for me, my posts here are to Microsoft servers and following the
guidelines Microsoft provides.
No one outside, you included, is in any position to demand or even state
proper posting procedure on the Microsoft servers.
Since Microsoft has not stated which is proper on Microsoft servers, it is
no ones place to dictate what Microsoft has omitted.
To do so suggests knowing the reason, not just guesses or assumptions for
omission.

As well as other news servers, many of the posts in these Microsoft public
newsgroups are "hijacked" (my word) and used in other forums with little
notification to the reader that posters do not actually post there.
In some cases the readers may not know the actual Microsoft news servers
exist.
PC Banter is one.
I have no intention of seeing if those forums have their own rules since I
do not post there.
Even if they have posted standards or rules, I have no obligation to follow
since I did not post there, rather they take the post.

Those who do not like or agree with that have several choices and NONE of
those choices require others. to do or change anything.
You can:
1. Ignore posts formatted in a way you do not like, some already do.
2. Do not subscribe to newsgroups with a format that is unacceptable to
you.
3. Find a newsreader that does not accept newsgroups formatted the way you
prefer.
4. Communicate your preferences to the owner, Microsoft, in this case.

Top, bottom, in line etc are all acceptable in the Microsoft newsgroups.
I find it interesting that the vast majority of complaints come from bottom
posters who think theirs is the only way with little flexibility for customs
in the different communities.

 

[Saucy]

Peter;
Very true.
But the point is Microsoft relinquishes NOTHING on the Microsoft servers.
As for other servers, after they have taken the data from the Microsoft
servers, it is in their control.
As for me, my posts here are to Microsoft servers and following the
guidelines Microsoft provides.
No one outside, you included, is in any position to demand or even state
proper posting procedure on the Microsoft servers.
Since Microsoft has not stated which is proper on Microsoft servers, it is
no ones place to dictate what Microsoft has omitted.
To do so suggests knowing the reason, not just guesses or assumptions for
omission.

As well as other news servers, many of the posts in these Microsoft public
newsgroups are "hijacked" (my word) and used in other forums with little
notification to the reader that posters do not actually post there.
In some cases the readers may not know the actual Microsoft news servers
exist.
PC Banter is one.
I have no intention of seeing if those forums have their own rules since I
do not post there.
Even if they have posted standards or rules, I have no obligation to
follow since I did not post there, rather they take the post.

Those who do not like or agree with that have several choices and NONE of
those choices require others. to do or change anything.
You can:
1. Ignore posts formatted in a way you do not like, some already do.
2. Do not subscribe to newsgroups with a format that is unacceptable to
you.
3. Find a newsreader that does not accept newsgroups formatted the way
you prefer.
4. Communicate your preferences to the owner, Microsoft, in this case.

Top, bottom, in line etc are all acceptable in the Microsoft newsgroups.
I find it interesting that the vast majority of complaints come from
bottom posters who think theirs is the only way with little flexibility
for customs in the different communities.

Agreed

 

[Saucy]

INLINE:

Peter;
Very true.

D'accord.


But the point is Microsoft relinquishes NOTHING on the Microsoft servers.
As for other servers, after they have taken the data from the Microsoft
servers, it is in their control.
As for me, my posts here are to Microsoft servers and following the
guidelines Microsoft provides.
No one outside, you included, is in any position to demand or even state
proper posting procedure on the Microsoft servers.
Since Microsoft has not stated which is proper on Microsoft servers, it is
no ones place to dictate what Microsoft has omitted.
To do so suggests knowing the reason, not just guesses or assumptions for
omission.

As well as other news servers, many of the posts in these Microsoft public
newsgroups are "hijacked" (my word) and used in other forums with little
notification to the reader that posters do not actually post there.
In some cases the readers may not know the actual Microsoft news servers
exist.
PC Banter is one.
I have no intention of seeing if those forums have their own rules since I
do not post there.
Even if they have posted standards or rules, I have no obligation to
follow since I did not post there, rather they take the post.

Those who do not like or agree with that have several choices and NONE of
those choices require others. to do or change anything.
You can:
1. Ignore posts formatted in a way you do not like, some already do.
2. Do not subscribe to newsgroups with a format that is unacceptable to
you.
3. Find a newsreader that does not accept newsgroups formatted the way
you prefer.
4. Communicate your preferences to the owner, Microsoft, in this case.

Top, bottom, in line etc are all acceptable in the Microsoft newsgroups.
I find it interesting that the vast majority of complaints come from
bottom posters who think theirs is the only way with little flexibility
for customs in the different communities.

 

[Saucy]

I'm in agreement with your opinion here. Thanks.

Peter;
Very true.
But the point is Microsoft relinquishes NOTHING on the Microsoft servers.
As for other servers, after they have taken the data from the Microsoft
servers, it is in their control.
As for me, my posts here are to Microsoft servers and following the
guidelines Microsoft provides.
No one outside, you included, is in any position to demand or even state
proper posting procedure on the Microsoft servers.
Since Microsoft has not stated which is proper on Microsoft servers, it is
no ones place to dictate what Microsoft has omitted.
To do so suggests knowing the reason, not just guesses or assumptions for
omission.

As well as other news servers, many of the posts in these Microsoft public
newsgroups are "hijacked" (my word) and used in other forums with little
notification to the reader that posters do not actually post there.
In some cases the readers may not know the actual Microsoft news servers
exist.
PC Banter is one.
I have no intention of seeing if those forums have their own rules since I
do not post there.
Even if they have posted standards or rules, I have no obligation to
follow since I did not post there, rather they take the post.

Those who do not like or agree with that have several choices and NONE of
those choices require others. to do or change anything.
You can:
1. Ignore posts formatted in a way you do not like, some already do.
2. Do not subscribe to newsgroups with a format that is unacceptable to
you.
3. Find a newsreader that does not accept newsgroups formatted the way
you prefer.
4. Communicate your preferences to the owner, Microsoft, in this case.

Top, bottom, in line etc are all acceptable in the Microsoft newsgroups.
I find it interesting that the vast majority of complaints come from
bottom posters who think theirs is the only way with little flexibility
for customs in the different communities.

 

[Fedwayguy]

??? i've never been kicked out of any group. I post where I want. BUT I
follow the rules, whereas you don't.

Rules? What stinking rules? Just because someone said a long time ago that
you should top post or bottom post doesn't make it a rule. There is no rule
concerning USENET, nada, nothing. The only rule there is that I know of is
to be careful what you say about others. Regardless of free speech and all
that other stuff, you can still be sued for what you say about someone on
Usenet.

Microsoft's ONLY newsreader (Outlook Express), made it difficult for you to
bottom post, therefore, a lot of people just top posted. Agent on the other
hand, was set up for bottom postings. There is no set way to post. I
usually bottom post UNLESS the thread is so damn large and I don't want to
remove any of it. That's when I want to get right to the point without
someone having to scroll through a thousand lines of text to see my one
liner.

If someone can please post where is says to either top or bottom post,
please let us know, and while you are at it, please post the name of the
person that said so. I hope it wasn't Al Gore, as we know, he invented the
Internet.

PLUS, nobody is going to tell me where I should post my replies. NOBODY.
Unless of course it's a private newsgroup that requires membership or is a
moderated newsgroup where the moderator won't allow your posting to be
posted because of some friggin nonsense rule. That's when I check out.

Just be reasonable wherever you post. If you are responding to a rather
large thread and don't want to trim the lines, sure, do a top post as long
as it's short and sweet, about four or so lines. Do a bottom post for most
other postings. The reasoning behind this is so people can see what the
hell you are responding to before reading your response. Kind of like
putting the cart before the horse and all that other horseshit.

 

[Fedwayguy]

yeah. So "technically" it's not Saucy's fault. It's a Microsoft email
program that has been incorrectly designed to work with Usenet.

Why MS doesn't follow established standards is beyond me. They ruin
internet usability, and make people like Saucy look foolish - so sad.

Excuse me, but what 'established standards' are you referring to? Please
post these standards so we can all see who set themselves up to be the ruler
and rule maker of Usenet. As far as I know, it all public opinion, which
holds about as much reasoning as Vista. We all know Al Gore invented the
Internet. Did he establish that standard?? I post wherever I feel my reply
should go. So what's the punishment if you don't follow established
standards??

 

[Fedwayguy]

That's why the wintrolls are so clueless. A lot of M$ designed websites
can't meet W3C standards... plus they go out of their way to torpedo these
same standards with their own misconceived ideas and then start saying
that they *are* the standard.

And while you are throwing out those so called 'standards', what do your
standards say about cross posting and/or responding to a thread that is
posted to three or more newsgroups. What's the deal on that? Cross post to
three is ok but not four, or four is ok and not five? How about HTML vs.
text postings. Might as well cover the whole damn thing dontcha think? I
would just love to see written standards and who the God is that set those
standards. Surely not Bill Gates as Usenet is far older than Microsoft.

 

[Maverick]

And while you are throwing out those so called 'standards', what do your
standards say about cross posting and/or responding to a thread that is
posted to three or more newsgroups.

Nice shuffle and evasion of the topic.

What's the deal on that? Cross
post to three is ok but not four, or four is ok and not five? How about
HTML vs. text postings. Might as well cover the whole damn thing
dontcha think? I would just love to see written standards and who the
God is that set those standards. Surely not Bill Gates as Usenet is far
older than Microsoft.

Tell that to the original OP about xposting.

Yet OE 6 is borked on urls being posted... IE 6 and 7 both do not
adhere to the W3C standards. Ever use Netscape to go to a website that
says only can be used with IE??

What part of M$ monopoly do you not understand??

 

[Maverick]

Excuse me, but what 'established standards' are you referring to?
Please post these standards so we can all see who set themselves up to
be the ruler and rule maker of Usenet. As far as I know, it all public
opinion, which holds about as much reasoning as Vista. We all know Al
Gore invented the Internet. Did he establish that standard?? I post
wherever I feel my reply should go. So what's the punishment if you
don't follow established standards??

There is a website that can check your web page for standards
compliance. A lot of websites written for IE do not adhere to the
standards. If any thing, Safari adheres to those standards far better
than IE 6 or 7.

 

[Nina DiBoy]

Jeez, what a load of dummies.

One guy says Apple is great to introduce new ideas and technologies,
and someone responds that Mac only has the lead in two specific
industries (a totally unrelated comment).
Then, someone else comments about other specific industries Mac is
strong in, and some other jerk claims they can't be because that means
there wouldn't be a single Windows computer at any of those industries.

Are Windows users just totally focused on being taken over, or what?

LOL! Of course, they feel threatened.

--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

Most recent idiotic quote added to KICK (Klassic Idiotic Caption Kooks):
"I do know for a fact that his monkey really needs a spanking. The monkey
gets "out of hand" if you know what I mean!"

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot

 

[Nina DiBoy]

And yet the user would have to know why it needs to change, understand
the issue to be motivated enough, and figure out how. Those are
unlikely.
The default setting of the default program is a HUGE issue.

Now, since Microsoft has internally recognized bottom-posting as the
proper method, let's ask why they haven't fixed it. Why does OE _still_
have this default? Why does it _still_ have the quoting problem?

I suspect this wouldn't be a day's work at Microsoft, and it matters,
and yet it still isn't fixed. People should be annoyed at that.

Yes, I agree. It annoys the hell out of me! Fixing Outhouse Distress's
default setting is kinda a moot issue considering they aren't issuing
any new versions of it and they do Windows Mail now. Although I suppose
they could issue a patch for OE. What is the default setting in Windows
Mail, anyone know?

--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

Most recent idiotic quote added to KICK (Klassic Idiotic Caption Kooks):
"I do know for a fact that his monkey really needs a spanking. The monkey
gets "out of hand" if you know what I mean!"

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot

 

[Peter Hayes]

25 years of exploiting ignorance? Huh? Are you referring to Windows 95
hysteria?

No, I'm referring to Joe Public who doesn't even know what an OS is.

Things just came together. Lack of decent competition (Apple too
expensive and inflexible, Linux too raw, UNIX too haughty, IBM letting OS/2
languish), combined with a sudden interest in computers (fueled by the rise
of the WWW) and, Bam!, Microsoft is in a dominant position.

Yes, and they've exploited it to the Nth degree.

Sure in the gold
rush there was a decided Wild Wild West aire to it all, and Microsoft was
dragged through the courts etc. etc. to pay for its success. But really, if
the computing public didn't know by 1997 that there were alternatives, then
that's there own fault. Heck, Apple, PET, Commadore etc. etc. were well
known since the 80's so I don't know what you are talking about. You're just
spouting anti-Microsoft garbage.

No, just pointing out that Microsoft have exploited their monopoly
position to such an extent that Joe Bloggs doesn't even know what an OS
is, and therefore isn't in any position to ask the right questions.
Remember the Hitach/BeOS fiasco? That had nothing to do with "preserving
Microsoft's brand image" and everything to do with ensuring the user
didn't realise alternatives to Windows existed.

The best form of control in any market is to ensure that the consumer
doesn't know what questions to ask. If Joe Bloggs started asking awkward
questions, Microsoft's empire would collapse overnight.

 

[ginfest]

Yes, I agree. It annoys the hell out of me! Fixing Outhouse Distress's
default setting is kinda a moot issue considering they aren't issuing any
new versions of it and they do Windows Mail now. Although I suppose they
could issue a patch for OE. What is the default setting in Windows Mail,
anyone know?

--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

Most recent idiotic quote added to KICK (Klassic Idiotic Caption Kooks):
"I do know for a fact that his monkey really needs a spanking. The monkey
gets "out of hand" if you know what I mean!"

"Good poets borrow; great poets steal."
- T. S. Eliot

The bottom

 

[Justin]

That only further proves that wegie only knows what is in front of his face.
He has no real life experience or experience at all outside his moms house.

Ignorance is a horrible, horrible thing.

 

[Justin]

How do you figure? OE is a MAIL and NG app. Do you bottom post emails? I
HATE THOSE PEOPLE!!! Only a few idiots do it though. It makes much more
sense to treat ALL MESSAGES the same.

Either way, these are all OPINIONS! Everyone posts the way THEY want in all
newsgroups. Only fools can't deal with it.


WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Justin]

Notice how there was no reply here?

At least people are learning there is no arguing facts.

 

[Justin]

Your argument is complete BS. If what you said was the only truth to the
mater then you have absolutely no way of explaining 99.9% of all top posted
email correspondences. If you can properly follow emails then you can
properly follow these NG postings you whiny good for nothing cry baby.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Justin]

Even when reading hundreds of threads that contain TOP, BOTTOM and INLINE
posting all at once, I've never come across a BROKEN THREAD. If you see a
BROKEN thread then please call your ISP and get it fixed.

In a few years? Hahahahaha!!!!!!! We've been doing all three since the
beginning. It's still not a problem, except to anal retentive little brats
that have no clue in life.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Justin]

You would be right if it was in fact an opinion comment.

I think most Vista users suffer.
I believe most Vista users suffer.

Those are opinions.

Most Vista users suffer.

That is stated as fact. If you are going to make such claims then you need
to provide PROOF of the statement.

Suffer? Drama queens need not apply!