"Frankenbuilds": the monster is dying...

[Paul-B]

Windows is user friendly in that you don't have to cope with command
lines, unless you want to. Not so for Linux - any version.

Linux is still too much for the geeks, as DOS was. If you don't know
the commands there is an awful lot you can not accomplish.

Even the act of installing virtual machine addition, which allow
better usability under VMWare, is NOT straight forward. Give me an
installer where I can just click a button and have it install. Is
that so hard to do?

When that is accomplished I can give it to my daughter-in law, not
before.

Hmmm, beg to differ. I've just installed Ubuntu on a spare machine,
installed without any problems whatsoever. It picked up every driver,
and even picked up my SATA drive without asking for a driver (which is
something Vista still doesn't do).

I've never used Linux before, and I'm far from being a geek, but I'm
very impressed with Ubuntu... it's incredibly easy to use, intuitive
and has pretty good apps bundled with it. And on the machine I have it
installed on (Athlon64 3600 with just 1Gb DDRAM) it loads and runs far
quicker than Vista does.

I'll stick with XP and Vista because those are the o/s my clients all
use, but I'm certainly going to be looking into Ubuntu, especially the
server flavour... free of charge and looks as if it does everything a
decent server should do.

 

[Nina DiBoy]

You need WGA to tell you if you bought a legit copy or not? Most pirated
copies, btw, do not come with malware. That's FUD put out by Microsoft
to scare people like you.

Nope, not pirated copies, but branded OEMs like from Dell! Does
anyone remember hearing of the adware they were turning Vista into?
Doesn't that mean that MS should consider Vista at least partially
ad-supported?

http://www.adrants.com/2006/02/microsoft-faces-obstacles-over-vista-welc.php

So build (or have one built for you) a white box and put a generic OEM
copy of Windows on it. I would never, ever, buy a desktop from a major
OEM like HP or Dell.

Alias

Excellent advice! Mom & Pop stores are always the way to go if you not
gonna make it yourself!



--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:

"Price is actually no factor in piracy..." spoken by
Mike Brannigan

"But I'm not insulting people. I'm insulting Linux Loonies..."
spoken by Mike <[email protected]>

"No, I'm not sure. I was just making fun of Chad's typo."
spoken by Mike <[email protected]>

More great quotes here:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

 

[Richard Urban]

Great. Now install a program that you, yourself, hunt down on the internet.
What do you have to do to install it.

As I said, it is difficult to install even VMWare additions - because it is
not part of the Linux package. It is part of VMWare.

If I must, I will post the install routine. It is not just clicking an OK
button.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[arachnid]

It might be interesting to know exactly what MS behaviour you consider to
be immoral?

For the most part their anticompetitive actions - cheating Spyglass out of
their royalties, taking away Netscape's air supply, placing code in
Windows that crashed DRDOS and blaming the problme on DRDOS, using secret
OEM agreements to cut off BEOS' access to the market, etc. They've used
liberal amounts of FUD - which is really just a form of deliberate lying -
to destroy the reputations of would-be competitors. Also they've made
their customers suffer simply so MS could avoid having to compete with
other operating systems on the basis of quality and features. For example,
shoving DRM down Windows users' throats, destroying Spyglass and Netscape
through noncompetitive means and then allowing IE with all its security
problems to languish once the threat of competition was dead, and now
denying Vista Home users the ability to benefit from Virtual Machine
technology even though Microsoft need not raise a finger to make Windows
work on VM's.

Also interesitng would be to know how their immorality (perceived or real)
changes your behaviour, if it does at all?

After all the good companies they've destroyed though anti-competitive
means and all the consumers they've ripped off with their schemes, I'd
have no qualms about stealing software from Microsoft if extortionate
pricing were the only consequence of a monopoly. However, quality also
suffers under a monopoly. Pirating Windows would be like stealing a free
lunch off a garbage truck.

 

[Nina DiBoy]

For the most part their anticompetitive actions - cheating Spyglass out of
their royalties, taking away Netscape's air supply, placing code in
Windows that crashed DRDOS and blaming the problme on DRDOS, using secret
OEM agreements to cut off BEOS' access to the market, etc. They've used
liberal amounts of FUD -

http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/fud.html
Proof, LOL.

which is really just a form of deliberate lying -
to destroy the reputations of would-be competitors. Also they've made
their customers suffer simply so MS could avoid having to compete with
other operating systems on the basis of quality and features. For example,
shoving DRM down Windows users' throats, destroying Spyglass and Netscape
through noncompetitive means and then allowing IE with all its security
problems to languish once the threat of competition was dead, and now
denying Vista Home users the ability to benefit from Virtual Machine
technology even though Microsoft need not raise a finger to make Windows
work on VM's.


After all the good companies they've destroyed though anti-competitive
means and all the consumers they've ripped off with their schemes, I'd
have no qualms about stealing software from Microsoft if extortionate
pricing were the only consequence of a monopoly. However, quality also
suffers under a monopoly. Pirating Windows would be like stealing a free
lunch off a garbage truck.

It already is in many ways.

--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:

"Price is actually no factor in piracy..." spoken by
Mike Brannigan

"But I'm not insulting people. I'm insulting Linux Loonies..."
spoken by Mike <[email protected]>

"No, I'm not sure. I was just making fun of Chad's typo."
spoken by Mike <[email protected]>

More great quotes here:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

 

[Paul-B]

Great. Now install a program that you, yourself, hunt down on the
internet. What do you have to do to install it.

Why would I want to? The package, as it comes, is a great little o/s
with bundled software which will satisfy the majority of your average
commercial user's requirements.

It has a wordprocessor, a spreadsheet, an email client, a presentation
package, a media player, an image editor, a web-browser, a pim (which,
incidentally, can connect to Exchange Server). If you need more you can
probably find and install it using something like Automatix2.

I'm not saying it will replace Windows, but it's neat, it's easy, and
it's free. And when we over here in the UK are goung to have to pay
£200+ for Vista it's definitely worth considering.

Horses for courses, dear boy!

 

[Alias]

Nope, not pirated copies, but branded OEMs like from Dell! Does
anyone remember hearing of the adware they were turning Vista into?
Doesn't that mean that MS should consider Vista at least partially
ad-supported?

http://www.adrants.com/2006/02/microsoft-faces-obstacles-over-vista-welc.php



Excellent advice! Mom & Pop stores are always the way to go if you not
gonna make it yourself!

The only time I bought a major OEM was an HP Pavilion back in 2000. It
had 98 loaded on it and I got a coupon for Windows Me. I used the coupon
and when I wanted service from HP, I was told that by installing Windows
Me, I had violated my warranty and would have to pay for service. That
machine only one stick of original HP RAM and the AMD Athlon 800 Mhz in
it. I replaced the Asus motherboard because HP had removed one of the
RAM slots (and who knows what else). Everything else has also been
replaced and I installed Ubuntu on it.

Alias

 

[Richard Urban]

It is easy, as long as you are happy with what comes with the package.

Sort of like AOL

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Paul-B]

It is easy, as long as you are happy with what comes with the package.

Sort of like AOL

Yebbut nobbut yebbut...

The point is that many people *are* happy... they use their PC for a
little bit of web-browsing, write some letters, look at a few photo's,
and later, play some music. Later they get to grips with email, maybe
some messenger programs and some games.

From what I've seen the majority of high-street customers are doing
exactly that, on overpriced, over-specified machines which they don't
really need.

Sell them a lower-spec machine, bottom-level pc with a 1600 processor,
256mb memory and a free operating system/software bundle which performs
faster than something running Vista, at less than a third the cost of
the Vista machine and they are likely to be very happy once they
overcome the Microsoft hype.

As for AOL... spawn of the devil, but it seems to be America's
favourite.

 

[Alias]

It is easy, as long as you are happy with what comes with the package.

Sort of like AOL

Not at all like AOL. You just need to learn how to install programs that
aren't on the Add/Remove list that comes with Ubuntu. I just reloaded it
on a faster hard drive and I had 204 updates. All downloaded and
installed without a problem. Can you say the same for Windows Updates?
Ubuntu doesn't purport to be a Linux Windows and as long as you try to
force that square peg into a round hole, the more frustrated you will get.

Alias

 

[Richard Urban]

Right. Learn to install vs. putting a CD into the tray and pressing OK a
couple of times.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Alias]

Right. Learn to install vs. putting a CD into the tray and pressing OK a
couple of times.

If you are not inclined to learn something new, don't do it.

Alias

 

[Richard Urban]

All I am saying is "THAT" is why Linux will not be mainstream in the
foreseeable future.

They all want to be a replacement for Windows, but they just don't get it!

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Alias]

All I am saying is "THAT" is why Linux will not be mainstream in the
foreseeable future.

I never dreamed I would be learning Linux but I am. The total disdain
that MS has towards paying customers was the final straw what with WPA,
WGA, WGA/N ad nauseum.

They all want to be a replacement for Windows, but they just don't get it!

I also never considered that Linux is like Windows.

Alias

 

[Paul-B]

All I am saying is "THAT" is why Linux will not be mainstream in the
foreseeable future.

They all want to be a replacement for Windows, but they just don't
get it!

I'm wondering why you are so defensive... there is room for many other
o/s, talk to anyone who has a Mac and he or she will spend the next
hour explaining to you why Apple produced an o/s 10 years ago which was
better than anything Microsoft has produced to date. Doesn't mean
they're right, but it's a valid pov.

As regards Vista, it may or may not be the dogs bollocks, but it's
nowhere near as fast or as intuitive to the average user, who doesn't
know or care what's under the bonnet, he or she just wants a machine
which will do the job quicky and as inexpensively as possible.

I look after 50+ small businesses over here in the UK, up until
recently there has been very little choice because of the stranglehold
Microsoft has on the pc market, you couldn't buy an off-the-shelf pc
without Windows of some flavour or other on it. And as Microsoft
developed their product range the software became more and more
bloated, more and more expensive... yes, more stable, certainly Windows
2000 was a huge leap forward from the truly abysmal ME (which was a
step-down from 98SE, IMO), and XP up to SP1, possibly even SP2 was a
nasty, unstable piece of software. XP with SP2 is rather good, and I
use it a lot, but compared with what you are asking it to do it's
bloated and requires lots of resources just to run the o/s.

I've been showing some of my clients workstations running Ubuntu, able
to do everything their present Windows workstations do except cheaper,
faster, and less prone to errors. Also very resistant to
malware/vciruses.

So the choice is easy... when it comes time to replace, say, 15
workstations, I can either supply them with fast processors, lots of
memory, and an expensive operating system which is probably going to be
full of bugs for the first 18 months (if XP is anything to go by).

So a basic workstation with Vista and Office 2007 on it is going to
cost them in the region of 1200UKP... a Ubuntu-based workstaiton which
will do exactly what they want running a mid-range processor and with
just 512Mb DDRAM will be less than half that. Much less, since they
won't have to shell-out 600/700UKP for Vista and Microsoft Office.

It'll never catch-up with Microsoft, because most IT Consultants over
this side of the pond aren't prepared to go the extra mile to learn a
new o/s when their clients aren't aware of anything other than
Microsoft products, but if you are prepared to at least look at the
options there's a very good way of saving money for your clients.

I'll still use Vista and XP and other MS products (althogh I've already
converted more than half my clients to use Firefox) because that's what
most corporate people over here expect, but it is becoming easier and
easier to show departmental managers the advantages of considering
options other than Microsoft, and especially when it comes to
servers... I'm seeing very little resistance to updating servers to
some flavour of Linux.

 

[Richard Urban]

I have not, nor ever will, discuss Linux in the work place.

I am referring specifically, and entirely, about home use.

Linux just doesn't make the grade for the 90% of Windows users who want
something intuitive and simple to use - including installing a new program
that was NOT included in the Linux download.

When Linux can do that, and when commercial products begin porting their
products over to Linux, you may see people flock to Linux in droves.

Now, am I still being so defensive of Windows? I think not.

I am willing to give Ubuntu a chance, if they would just make things easier.
I am not going to spend a month, or more, learning a new curve. Which, by
the way, is what many of the editorial people say is why Linux will never
catch on. It may be cheaper, but who wants to spend the time?

Ubuntu is still on my computer (VMWare virtual machine) and I boot into it
about once a month to update it, hoping that someday I can install the
VMWare Virtual Machine Additions just by clicking on a radio button. So far,
that hasn't happened in the three versions of Ubuntu that I have played
with.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[mxh]

Yeah, they're coming out with a new one to be released soon. I wonder how
many paying customers will have problems with that one.


Linux has changed a lot lately. For example, to install Ubuntu, you need
to change the BIOS to load the CDROM first. Slip in the Ubuntu CD. It
starts to install. You have to choose your language and it comes with
hundreds of languages, unlike Windows that comes with only one language.
Then you choose your location. Then you have to choose a user name and
password. That's it! Once Ubuntu loads, you will be offered about 200
updates that I downloaded and it installed without a hitch. I really like
the Evolution email program. Here's a screen shot:

I wouldn't mind trying it out, and in fact, have enough extra parts around
to build a low end p4 machine and was considering it, since I plan to use it
as a server for audio files and such. So I posted to a Linux group to asking
for details for what I wanted to do. I also stated that I didn't have a lot
of time to play with it to make it work (although I do like tinkering with
such things). I was told there that I should wait until I had the time to
invest.

Do you agree with this line of thought? The reason I was considering it in
the first place was an article in Maximum PC that siad Ubuntu was a great
distro for easy install and set up. In fact, the article further stated that
you could run from a live CD and if you decided you liked it, you could
install right from the live CD (or DVD as the case may be). If this is the
case, I'd appreciate it if you could suggest a high bandwidth site where it
could be DL'd. One other thing...what about device drivers? Easy to find/get
working?


Thanks,
mxh

 

[Jeff Gaines]

I wouldn't mind trying it out, and in fact, have enough extra parts around
to build a low end p4 machine and was considering it, since I plan to use
it as a server for audio files and such. So I posted to a Linux group to
asking for details for what I wanted to do. I also stated that I didn't
have a lot of time to play with it to make it work (although I do like
tinkering with such things). I was told there that I should wait until I
had the time to invest.

Some Linux groups aren't too friendly to people coming over from the dark
side. You'll get a better response if you get Linux installed and post
from it - and don't criticise it, the Linux guys are very sensitive souls

Do you agree with this line of thought? The reason I was considering it in
the first place was an article in Maximum PC that siad Ubuntu was a great
distro for easy install and set up. In fact, the article further stated
that you could run from a live CD and if you decided you liked it, you
could install right from the live CD (or DVD as the case may be). If this
is the case, I'd appreciate it if you could suggest a high bandwidth site
where it could be DL'd. One other thing...what about device drivers? Easy
to find/get working?

I recently put Ubuntu on an AMD 64 PC (DFI Lan Party mobo) and it
recognised everything - sound, NIC, the lot. I also put it on a Toshiba
Portege M300 laptop and again it recognised everything including the
wireless network.

It's a very new distro and recognises a lot more h/w than XP, which is
relatively ancient now.

I know there's not a lot of support for this view but I believe that in
some respects it would be easier to move from XP to Ubuntu Linux than to
Vista.

 

[Alias]

I wouldn't mind trying it out, and in fact, have enough extra parts
around to build a low end p4 machine and was considering it, since I
plan to use it as a server for audio files and such. So I posted to a
Linux group to asking for details for what I wanted to do. I also stated
that I didn't have a lot of time to play with it to make it work
(although I do like tinkering with such things). I was told there that I
should wait until I had the time to invest.

Do you agree with this line of thought? The reason I was considering it
in the first place was an article in Maximum PC that siad Ubuntu was a
great distro for easy install and set up. In fact, the article further
stated that you could run from a live CD and if you decided you liked
it, you could install right from the live CD (or DVD as the case may
be). If this is the case, I'd appreciate it if you could suggest a high
bandwidth site where it could be DL'd. One other thing...what about
device drivers? Easy to find/get working?


Thanks,
mxh

Order the CD. They will send it to you for free. www.ubuntu.com They
even pay the postage. I have mine on a AMD Athlon 800 Mhz with 512
PC-133 RAM. When I installed it, it recognized all the hardware and was
very, very easy to install. Just set your BIOS to boot the CDROM first
and you can take a look at it with the Live CD and, if you like it,
install it. Can't do that with Windows.

Alias

 

[Nina DiBoy]

I have not, nor ever will, discuss Linux in the work place.

Linux does somethings better in the workplace than windows. Some server
functions, and many embedded linux devices like network appliances (such
as storage devices, routers, and firewalls) can give windows devices a
run for their money.

I am referring specifically, and entirely, about home use.

Linux just doesn't make the grade for the 90% of Windows users who want
something intuitive and simple to use - including installing a new
program that was NOT included in the Linux download.

When Linux can do that, and when commercial products begin porting their
products over to Linux, you may see people flock to Linux in droves.

Now, am I still being so defensive of Windows? I think not.

I am willing to give Ubuntu a chance, if they would just make things
easier. I am not going to spend a month, or more, learning a new curve.

I admittedly am biased, but when you consider the time wasted dealing
with PA, WGAN, DRM, security/privacy concerns, etc. well, it made me
reweigh the evidence.

Which, by the way, is what many of the editorial people say is why Linux
will never catch on. It may be cheaper, but who wants to spend the time?

Ubuntu is still on my computer (VMWare virtual machine) and I boot into
it about once a month to update it, hoping that someday I can install
the VMWare Virtual Machine Additions just by clicking on a radio button.
So far, that hasn't happened in the three versions of Ubuntu that I have
played with.

--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:

"Price is actually no factor in piracy..." spoken by
Mike Brannigan

"But I'm not insulting people. I'm insulting Linux Loonies..."
spoken by Mike <[email protected]>

"No, I'm not sure. I was just making fun of Chad's typo."
spoken by Mike <[email protected]>

More great quotes here:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html