"Frankenbuilds": the monster is dying...

[EdricFilho]

It seems that last Windows Update cancels previous activations of leaked
RTMs using CPP keys... I guess there will be lots of ex-CPPs looking at
their machines and saying "Talk to me, Frankie, talk to me..." within 30
days.... <:^)

Edric

 

[MicroFox]

don't underestimate the abilities of the hackers...

MS is trying to battle an unbeatable monster...

The solution was not to take more antipiracy measures... rather
to create a new strategy that includes generosity.

I have no doubt that the spread of windows 95 and 98 on computers
was mostly due to that it could be copied easily... in the long run MS made
big bucks out of the global expansion of windows... YES, Piracy made them
rich. Yet this simple fact seems to elude them.. they will gain
nothing from all this battle.. if they continue they will lose everything.

 

[MicroFox]

To clarify my other post.. I do not support hackers...

but I do think vista should have been cheaper than XP,
with even lower prices for developing nations.

I also believe that vista should have been given for free to some special
groups of people, that do not have the money to buy it...

 

[BlackRain]

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:24:40 +0200, "MicroFox" <-> :

I agree, Microsoft's only defense is to 'block' or 'deny' RC1 and RC2 Keys and
prevent any updates or security patches and deny downloads of genuine products
such as IE7,Defender,WMP11..but did that stop the hackers....NO..they found ways
around it.

IE7 is installable on cracked versions
WMP 11 is installable on cracked versions
Auto-Patcher bypass WU completely
legitcontroll.dll patch allows updates

Microsoft should be working harder with vendors on drivers and quit taking the
piss poor attitude of thinking they are going to mass sell a product not
compatible with alot of hardware...though its more of the responsibility of the
3rd parties, Microsoft has alot to lose at this point and also needs to bare
more responsibility and not just the 'Here's Vista'

 

[Cary Quinn]

don't underestimate the abilities of the hackers...

"Hackers" work on both sides of that fence.
Don't underestimate the determination of either side.

MS is trying to battle an unbeatable monster...

On the contrary, MS is raising their defensive posture to something that
matches
mainstream approaches. You don't have to battle monsters to create
incentives for
them to go somewhere else.

The solution was not to take more antipiracy measures... rather
to create a new strategy that includes generosity.

The solution exists in both directions, becoming more generous in front will
not stop
pirates from trying to take what they can off the side. Making piracy
harder on the
platform also sends a message to other software companies that face the same
issues.

I have no doubt that the spread of windows 95 and 98 on computers
was mostly due to that it could be copied easily... in the long run MS
made big bucks out of the global expansion of windows... YES, Piracy made
them rich.

They may well have benefited in the short term from that, but they have paid
the
price over the long term for allowing that attitude to persist. They lost
far more
in time, effort, and credibility in having to fight the continued spread of
the OS
and associated products. Piracy did not make them rich, it added to the
marketshare
in ways that do not translate back to the bottom line, and do not make a
reliable
accounting of the actual state of the industry.

Yet this simple fact seems to elude them.. they will gain
nothing from all this battle.. if they continue they will lose everything.

The facts do not elude them, the fact that piracy of XP volume license keys
far
exceeded the spread of previous versions of Windows did not elude them
either.
Situations change, and the need and interest to provide security for their
products as
well as within thier products has also changed since the early days of
Win9x.

MS is not accountable to the pirates, they are (want to be seen as)
accountable to
their customers, business partners, developers, beta testers; and yes, their
shareholders.
For every hacker who desires a workaround to get Windows Vista, and programs
that will run
on Vista, for free; there are many other people who desire a computer that
the can see as being
more secure and protected from exploit than the previous versions.
Securing the programs that
run on that platform is part of that process; and an operating system is
made up of the first line of
programs developed with that platform in mind.

 

[Dale]

Special groups of people like whom?

Dale

To clarify my other post.. I do not support hackers...

but I do think vista should have been cheaper than XP,
with even lower prices for developing nations.

I also believe that vista should have been given for free to some special
groups of people, that do not have the money to buy it...

 

[Dale]

Piracy really comes down to conscience. Those without one will continue to
pirate. Those with one will continue to buy software legitimately. It has
nothing to do with Microsoft's generosity or the price of Vista. I'd really
like to own a Mercedes but I am not going to steal one just because I think
they charge too much for them. After all, Chevrolet sells their cars for
25% of the cost of a Mercedes so Mercedes is making too much money. I can't
afford a Mercedes so I drive a Chevrolet.

There is great satisfaction in owning and using anything purchased or built
by the efforts of your own hands but only an inner chill that comes from
knowing, every time you use something, that you stole it and that you are a
thief - using the term "you" metaphorically.

Dale

 

[Alias]

Piracy really comes down to conscience.

It also has a lot to do with money. Real pirates, who are not only not
affected by MS' silly anti piracy efforts, benefit from the high price
of Vista. It's called a price spread. A DVD costs a couple of bucks.
Vista costs up to 800 bucks in the UK. Nice little spread there for the
pirates.

Those without one will continue
to pirate.

Not if there isn't any financial gain to make it worthwhile.

Those with one will continue to buy software legitimately.

You are confusing customers of pirated software with the real pirates,
the ones that sell it.

It has nothing to do with Microsoft's generosity or the price of Vista.

LOL! Totally false.

I'd really like to own a Mercedes but I am not going to steal one just
because I think they charge too much for them. After all, Chevrolet
sells their cars for 25% of the cost of a Mercedes so Mercedes is making
too much money. I can't afford a Mercedes so I drive a Chevrolet.

Bad comparison. You can't compare intellectual property with real
property. You can't download a car.

There is great satisfaction in owning and using anything purchased or
built by the efforts of your own hands but only an inner chill that
comes from knowing, every time you use something, that you stole it and
that you are a thief - using the term "you" metaphorically.

Dale

Sorry, but your imposed morality is besides the point. I'll give you an
example: Venezuela. When I was there, a music cassette tape of, say,
Madonna, went for about ONE US DOLLAR and was sold at EVERY SINGLE MUSIC
STORE for that price. When taken to court by the Big Music Boys, the
judge said that their prices were too much and to take a hike, all the
way up to the Venezuelan Supreme Court who said the poor Venezuelan
people were more important than their profits. Note that this was in the
mid 80s when Venezuela was in the US' pockets, long before Bush made
Chavez rich by attacking Iraq and the consequent rise in oil prices.

Alias

 

[Alias]

Special groups of people like whom?

Dale

Most of the planet cannot afford Vista.

Alias

 

[Dale]

If I call the jewelers and order a five-carat diamond ring and they deliver
it on a bicycle, am I allowed to steal the ring because the delivery vehicle
cost so much less than the ring?

The DVD is simply the delivery vehicle. And the product is not simply
intellectual property. The product is the result of many man-hours of work,
building costs, hvac costs, tax and accounting costs and many other tangible
costs as well as shareholders expectations of financial gain for their
investments.

Just because the Venezuelan government lacks morals does not make their
behavior right and it does not mean that others are justified in the same
behavior.

A thief is a thief. Period.

Dale

 

[Dale]

Most of the planet can not afford a car either but that doesn't mean
Mercedes should give them away.

Dale

 

[mxh]

It also has a lot to do with money. Real pirates, who are not only not
affected by MS' silly anti piracy efforts, benefit from the high price of
Vista. It's called a price spread. A DVD costs a couple of bucks. Vista
costs up to 800 bucks in the UK. Nice little spread there for the pirates.

Responding here, but applies to entirity of post. Your perspective is
somewhat distorted. Thievery is thievery and cannot be justified by high
prices, business practices or anything else. It matters not that the 'thief'
feels wronged by those he steals from. It's still stealing, period. No
amount of 'reasoning' can change that reality. Self-justification is a tool
used by the unjustifiable.

This also could be the perverbial 'slippery slope'. For instance, if you
have something for sale (intellectual or material is incidental), and I feel
the price is too high, do I have the right to steal it from you? You'll say
no, but, adopting your standards, it is *my* perception that matters and I
will steal it from you because you don't market it the way I feel you
should. Beware that you do not become a victim of those who adopt your
philosophy.

Bottomline:

There is no justification for stealing. It's not about the actions of those
being stolen from. It's about the character of the thief.

mxh

 

[EdricFilho]

One funny thing is that every user of "Frankenbuilds" who disabled automatic
updates to avoid the licence checking get the message "You are not
protected: Auto update is off", and the reply would be: "Wrong, NOW I am
protected until Jan 30".... <:^))

 

[mxh]

To clarify my other post.. I do not support hackers...

but I do think vista should have been cheaper than XP,
with even lower prices for developing nations.

A fair statement, but my understanding is that Bill Gates is a
philanthropist of the highest magnitude (as it should be, given his
fortune). AFAIK, he may well give Vista away to special groups, but even if
not, he does spread his fortune around. But let's face it, Vista is not
necessary to life. People will go on living even if they don't get a free
copy of Vista.

 

[Alias]

If I call the jewelers and order a five-carat diamond ring and they
deliver it on a bicycle, am I allowed to steal the ring because the
delivery vehicle cost so much less than the ring?

Of course not.

The DVD is simply the delivery vehicle. And the product is not simply
intellectual property. The product is the result of many man-hours of
work, building costs, hvac costs, tax and accounting costs and many
other tangible costs as well as shareholders expectations of financial
gain for their investments.

Just because the Venezuelan government lacks morals does not make their
behavior right and it does not mean that others are justified in the
same behavior.

A thief is a thief. Period.

Dale

I agree and thieves need a price spread to make money which MS has been
so kind to provide with their high prices for Vista. I am not condoning
stealing. I am just telling you why it happens. If no money could be
made by the pirates who sell pirated software, piracy would disappear.

Alias

 

[Alias]

Responding here, but applies to entirity of post. Your perspective is
somewhat distorted. Thievery is thievery and cannot be justified by high
prices, business practices or anything else. It matters not that the
'thief' feels wronged by those he steals from. It's still stealing,
period. No amount of 'reasoning' can change that reality.
Self-justification is a tool used by the unjustifiable.

This also could be the perverbial 'slippery slope'. For instance, if you
have something for sale (intellectual or material is incidental), and I
feel the price is too high, do I have the right to steal it from you?
You'll say no, but, adopting your standards, it is *my* perception that
matters and I will steal it from you because you don't market it the way
I feel you should. Beware that you do not become a victim of those who
adopt your philosophy.

Bottomline:

There is no justification for stealing. It's not about the actions of
those being stolen from. It's about the character of the thief.

mxh

You misunderstand. I do not condone or justify stealing. I am merely
telling you why it happens, not if it's morally OK or not. Another
example would be cocaine. If the price for cocaine in Colombia were the
same as New York, the smugglers would go out of business. Get it now?

Alias

 

[Alias]

Most of the planet can not afford a car either but that doesn't mean
Mercedes should give them away.

Dale

And? I never said it should be "given away". I merely said that the high
price encourages piracy. Please read for content and leave you high
moral horse at the door before you come in.

Alias

 

[Alias]

A fair statement, but my understanding is that Bill Gates is a
philanthropist of the highest magnitude (as it should be, given his
fortune). AFAIK, he may well give Vista away to special groups, but even
if not, he does spread his fortune around. But let's face it, Vista is
not necessary to life. People will go on living even if they don't get a
free copy of Vista.

The ONLY reasons his foundation exists are for tax purposes and to
assuage his conscience for being so filthy rich.

Alias

 

[Dale]

Follow the thread. You actually said nothing of the kind. You responded to
my question to MicroFox about which special groups should be given Vista for
free.

MicroFox:
"I also believe that vista should have been given for free to some special
groups of people, that do not have the money to buy it..."

Dale:
"Special groups of people like whom?"

Alias:
"Most of the planet cannot afford Vista."

Dale:
"Most of the planet can not afford a car either but that doesn't mean
Mercedes should give them away."

*sitting higher in the saddle*

 

[Alias]

Follow the thread. You actually said nothing of the kind. You
responded to my question to MicroFox about which special groups should
be given Vista for free.

MicroFox:
"I also believe that vista should have been given for free to some
special groups of people, that do not have the money to buy it..."

Dale:
"Special groups of people like whom?"

Alias:
"Most of the planet cannot afford Vista."

Dale:
"Most of the planet can not afford a car either but that doesn't mean
Mercedes should give them away."

*sitting higher in the saddle*

Um, the fact that most people on the planet can't afford Vista doesn't
therefore mean I agree that it should be given away for free. Please
don't put words in my mouth that weren't there.

Alias