S
Supreme Enchanter
Win 2000? Likes like a mac OS 7. Win XP ihas been out for a while and
longhorn is floating around now.
longhorn is floating around now.
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Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?
S
Supreme Enchanter
I have 6 USB ports and 2 firewire on XP. No problems. However, as I said
earlier, win XP screws up if you have more than 2 firewire ports on a PCI
card.
earlier, win XP screws up if you have more than 2 firewire ports on a PCI
card.
M
Mark M
Bill Van Dyk said:Thank you, Mr. Lemming.
There is nothing in my post about "following for no apparent reason."
The reasons for USB inclusion are clear:
-The need for compatible input devices for the vast array of devices which
require it on the market already.
This makes no claim of superiority of USB 2.0, rather the simple recognition
that USB is very much a standard connection for the majority of users.
Nearly every digital camera, new printer, MP3 player, etc. require a USB
connection.
It's not my opinion that matters here.
These are simple facts.
Personally, I like firewire over USB 2.0.
M
Mark M
Bill Van Dyk said:Right--
My biggest gripe is unfulfilled promises. USB was supposed to allow you to plug
in or unplug devices "on the fly".
But Windows has a hissy fit if you turn off your digital camera, for example,
even if you don't need it and aren't accessing it anymore. And USB doesn't
reach sustained speeds at the claimed performance levels. And it can and will
bring your entire system down with a crash. It is, in a word, pathetic.
Firewire is elegant and reliable. Plug in the camcorder, run Premiere, load the
data. When you're done, disconnect or shut off the camera.... and not a peep
from firewire.
It is actually quite remarkable that USB can't do that. It is beyond
incompetent.
I plug and unplug USB devices CONSTANTLY with none of these "hissy fits" you
speak of.
Again...no flag waver for USB, but you seem to be on the fringe here.
M
Mark M
Supreme Enchanter said:I have 6 USB ports and 2 firewire on XP. No problems. However, as I said
earlier, win XP screws up if you have more than 2 firewire ports on a PCI
card.
YOUR computer screws up with more than one firewire port.
Not MY windoze machine.
M
Mark M
Bill Van Dyk said:Right--
My biggest gripe is unfulfilled promises. USB was supposed to allow you to plug
in or unplug devices "on the fly".
I can connect or disconnect any/all of the fallowing USB connected to my
laptop/docking station:
**25 (yes, twenty-five) devices** including:
2 printers
2 flatbed scanners
2 card readers
2 optical mice
wireless keyboard
regular keyboard (via USB)
20GB digital wallet
digital camera
drawing tablet
MP3 player
pocket PC
120GB external HD
ZIP drive
Flight Stick
Sound control system
4 USB hubs
On firewire:
2 external hard drives
CD burner
So... Quit your whining and get a new machine.
R
Ron Hunter
That might be because of limits to the PCI interface as regards transferSupreme said:I have 6 USB ports and 2 firewire on XP. No problems. However, as I said
earlier, win XP screws up if you have more than 2 firewire ports on a PCI
card.
rates. Too much data to send through the buss.
T
the JarHead
It's a cost-cutting thing, no doubt. I don't think it would be "more"
expensive to implement on a PC, but in a cut-throat competitive world of
hundreds of PC makers, any way to shave a few pennies is going to make a
significant difference in sales. So they keep costs down by not giving you
Firewire.
Apple, on the other hand, is free to put whatever hardware they want onto
their machines, knowing that people will buy (not like they really have a
choice) -- and in so doing also give themselves a reputation for being an
innovator and market leader ("first to have Firewire as a standard feature!")
Apple developed and built the Firewire technology. Which is why Mac's
had Firewire before they had USB...
G
Guest
the JarHead said:Apple developed and built the Firewire technology. Which is why Mac's
had Firewire before they had USB...
thats false. the original imac in mid 1998 was the first mac with usb,
and it did not have firewire at all. roughly six months later they
shipped a g3 tower with firewire.
H
Howard McCollister
nospam said:thats false. the original imac in mid 1998 was the first mac with usb,
and it did not have firewire at all. roughly six months later they
shipped a g3 tower with firewire.
I doubt that Apple had any expectation that firewire would become the
peripheral bus of choice as opposed to USB for such things as as keyboards
and mice. Firewire was a long time in development, and it was their original
hope that it would replace both the Apple Serial Bus (for peripherals) and
the Apple Desktop Bus (ADB for keyboards etc). But, they recognized their
competitive disadvantage when Intel developed (more quickly than they
though) USB and (wisely) capitulated early by including USB on Macs even
before they were ready to fully implement firewire. IIRC, USB was more
widely available across the Apple product line than it was across the PC
lines in the early stages.
This was about the time they hit on marketing Macs for home digital video
and they switched gears and concentrated on getting Sony to buy into
firewire early for their new miniDV line of camcorders. That turned out to
be a very smart move. Sony licensed it and developed a 4 pin (non-powered)
version of firewire (I-Link). Sony is really what kept firewire alive and
probably played a much bigger role in the demise of SCSI than anyone
imagines. USB couldn't hope to do what firewire did early on. As a
technology, firewire was and is vastly superior to USB, but like the entire
Apple/Intel story (just as with the Beta/VHS story), marketing prowess and
sheer marketing force can leave the consumer with second best technology as
the standard.
HMc
B
Bill Van Dyk
Interesting comments all. Sounds like maybe Windows XP has solved the issue? I was
surprised that firewire can have the same problem, though, clearly, it is a software
issue. I stand corrected. Or "updated", more accurately.
surprised that firewire can have the same problem, though, clearly, it is a software
issue. I stand corrected. Or "updated", more accurately.
R
Roger Halstead
I'm not so sure it'd make much difference in the sales, but it makes a
difference in the profit. So, if you figure $2 to $5 difference in
cost and the manufacturer sells a few million machines, it totals a
lot of money in their pockets. Even if it were 50 cents it still
amounts to a lot of money to the manufacturers.
I build up my own computers and to me they are all PCs as that was
what we called them before IBM was given the PC name.
But at any rate, I haven't seen a motherboard without firewire
capability in at least one to two years. I'm not claiming they aren't
there, but it's easier to find one with, than without.
That the manufactures choose to save about $5 (or less) at the time of
construction seems strange.
I've never had a need for firewire as I haven't come across any
accessories that use it, but probably will some time in the future.
The unfortunate thing about USB and particularly USB2 is the lack of
standardization. *Nearly* all will work with each other and are
backward compatible to USB, but there may be a very large difference
in the speed from one USB2 to another systems USB2.
You'll have to fix the return add due to dumb virus checkers, not spam
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
difference in the profit. So, if you figure $2 to $5 difference in
cost and the manufacturer sells a few million machines, it totals a
lot of money in their pockets. Even if it were 50 cents it still
amounts to a lot of money to the manufacturers.
I build up my own computers and to me they are all PCs as that was
what we called them before IBM was given the PC name.
But at any rate, I haven't seen a motherboard without firewire
capability in at least one to two years. I'm not claiming they aren't
there, but it's easier to find one with, than without.
That the manufactures choose to save about $5 (or less) at the time of
construction seems strange.
I've never had a need for firewire as I haven't come across any
accessories that use it, but probably will some time in the future.
The unfortunate thing about USB and particularly USB2 is the lack of
standardization. *Nearly* all will work with each other and are
backward compatible to USB, but there may be a very large difference
in the speed from one USB2 to another systems USB2.
Apple developed and built the Firewire technology. Which is why Mac's
had Firewire before they had USB...
You'll have to fix the return add due to dumb virus checkers, not spam
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
B
Bill Van Dyk
Nice that you've had success with it. Never locked up on you? Ever? Do you
have XP?
For the record, the problem has occurred on several machines over the past few
years, with several digital cameras including Canon and Nikon, an HP scanner, a
Logitech mouse, and keyboard. But we don't have XP on anything other than a few
laptops.
have XP?
For the record, the problem has occurred on several machines over the past few
years, with several digital cameras including Canon and Nikon, an HP scanner, a
Logitech mouse, and keyboard. But we don't have XP on anything other than a few
laptops.
D
David Chien
Because it's a Dell!
Actually, you bought the wrong Dell desktop - some of the other models
in their line have built-in Firewire. They drop the Firewire in the
cheaper systems to keep costs low for buyers that don't want more.
Rather than the Dell Dimension 2400-8300 series, picking the Dimension
XPS series would have gotten you the port.
Otherwise, run down to any store, pickup a <$20 firewire card and drop
it in.
---
In any case (runs over to my Shuttle SS51G), my little PC has 4 USB
ports and 3 firewire ports, and it cost less than the Dell to build
(~$470 today at www.newegg.com for a 2.6Ghz Celeron system + 512MB +
40GB HD + 52x CD-RW + floppy, ie. a complete system). Maybe next time
go for a custom built system so you know you're getting everything?
Product page:
http://us.shuttle.com/specs2.asp?pro_id=281
Review (yep, tuck that baby under your arm and go! - see picture)
http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/20020815/index.html
Drop in any ATI All-In-Wonder TV tuner/video card into this baby, and
you can watch TV at the same time!
More talk about small form factor PCs here:
http://forums.sudhian.com/
--
Custom built-systems also give you more for your money. YOu can easily
load up a system with a killer MB, and have features galore.
eg. http://soyousa.com/products/proddesc.php?id=233
The Soyo Dragon is one of such series of fully loaded motherboards - not
only 8 USB & 3 IEEE 1394 ports, but also 6-in-1 USB 2.0 flash card
reader writer with an additional 2 USB & 2 IEEE 1394 ports. Tack on 4
Serial ATA RAID + 4 IDE channels, 6-channel audio, and a lot of
everything else, it makes the Dell look like a stripped down system in
comparison (which it is, so they can keep costs down).
Actually, you bought the wrong Dell desktop - some of the other models
in their line have built-in Firewire. They drop the Firewire in the
cheaper systems to keep costs low for buyers that don't want more.
Rather than the Dell Dimension 2400-8300 series, picking the Dimension
XPS series would have gotten you the port.
Otherwise, run down to any store, pickup a <$20 firewire card and drop
it in.
---
In any case (runs over to my Shuttle SS51G), my little PC has 4 USB
ports and 3 firewire ports, and it cost less than the Dell to build
(~$470 today at www.newegg.com for a 2.6Ghz Celeron system + 512MB +
40GB HD + 52x CD-RW + floppy, ie. a complete system). Maybe next time
go for a custom built system so you know you're getting everything?
Product page:
http://us.shuttle.com/specs2.asp?pro_id=281
Review (yep, tuck that baby under your arm and go! - see picture)
http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/20020815/index.html
Drop in any ATI All-In-Wonder TV tuner/video card into this baby, and
you can watch TV at the same time!
More talk about small form factor PCs here:
http://forums.sudhian.com/
--
Custom built-systems also give you more for your money. YOu can easily
load up a system with a killer MB, and have features galore.
eg. http://soyousa.com/products/proddesc.php?id=233
The Soyo Dragon is one of such series of fully loaded motherboards - not
only 8 USB & 3 IEEE 1394 ports, but also 6-in-1 USB 2.0 flash card
reader writer with an additional 2 USB & 2 IEEE 1394 ports. Tack on 4
Serial ATA RAID + 4 IDE channels, 6-channel audio, and a lot of
everything else, it makes the Dell look like a stripped down system in
comparison (which it is, so they can keep costs down).
S
Stanley Krute
Hi Bill
Sorry you don't like USB.
I like it a lot. My computer clients/customers like it.
It generally Just Works. It's made lots of stuff
that used to be a headache easy.
Just today I'm working on a customer's older laptop,
which lacks any network connectivity. Plugged in a
lovely LinkSys USB net adapter, size of a gnat, and
am thus able to back up his hard drive and do other
shmootz over the network here in the Plywood
Labooratory. This particular device astonishes me,
both by its size and JustWorks functionality. I'm
geezer enough to remember LAN adapters from
the late 1980's, huge brain-dead fussy boards that'd
be a complete butt-pain to install and get running
correctly.
As far as cameras having issues with USB connections:
my personal sniff is that results from the general situation
of camera companies writing crappy software. I sell all
my customers a manyFormats-in-one memory card reader,
either internal or external, and show them how to use that.
I advise them against using ANY camera manufacture software,
unless it's a RAW converter whose functionality is nowhere
else obtainable.
Regards,
Stan
ps -- On new computers that I build, I recommend that folks
let me give them both USB AND Firewire functionality, with
built-in front-panel ports. Most folks eschew the Firewire
part, unless they're going to be doing video editing, in which
case it's a no-brainer easy-sell.
Sorry you don't like USB.
I like it a lot. My computer clients/customers like it.
It generally Just Works. It's made lots of stuff
that used to be a headache easy.
Just today I'm working on a customer's older laptop,
which lacks any network connectivity. Plugged in a
lovely LinkSys USB net adapter, size of a gnat, and
am thus able to back up his hard drive and do other
shmootz over the network here in the Plywood
Labooratory. This particular device astonishes me,
both by its size and JustWorks functionality. I'm
geezer enough to remember LAN adapters from
the late 1980's, huge brain-dead fussy boards that'd
be a complete butt-pain to install and get running
correctly.
As far as cameras having issues with USB connections:
my personal sniff is that results from the general situation
of camera companies writing crappy software. I sell all
my customers a manyFormats-in-one memory card reader,
either internal or external, and show them how to use that.
I advise them against using ANY camera manufacture software,
unless it's a RAW converter whose functionality is nowhere
else obtainable.
Regards,
Stan
ps -- On new computers that I build, I recommend that folks
let me give them both USB AND Firewire functionality, with
built-in front-panel ports. Most folks eschew the Firewire
part, unless they're going to be doing video editing, in which
case it's a no-brainer easy-sell.
C
Chris Phillipo
Unfortunatly the inferior USB won out. I knew this to be certain when
things like this started happening:
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/akiba/hotline/20030222/image/tooth1.html
things like this started happening:
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/akiba/hotline/20030222/image/tooth1.html
H
Howard McCollister
But at any rate, I haven't seen a motherboard without firewire
capability in at least one to two years. I'm not claiming they aren't
there, but it's easier to find one with, than without.
It's true that most of the major motherboard manufacturers have IEEE1394
(firewire) built into most of their models. Naturally, the big exception is
Intel. Not a firewire-equipped motherboard to be had from them.
HMc
K
Keith Clark
There's a place for both.
If you're using a digital video camcorder the only meaningful option is
IEEE-1394 as Firewire is correctly called, because that's the defacto
industry standard.
By the same token if you're using external hard drives you're better off
with Firewire than USB because you can capture directly to the drive
from your camcorder without sucking up CPU cycles which can be important
for video.
--Keith
If you're using a digital video camcorder the only meaningful option is
IEEE-1394 as Firewire is correctly called, because that's the defacto
industry standard.
By the same token if you're using external hard drives you're better off
with Firewire than USB because you can capture directly to the drive
from your camcorder without sucking up CPU cycles which can be important
for video.
--Keith
M
Mark M
Bill Van Dyk said:My point is that when we as consumers flock to a particular standard simply
because it appears to be winning the market place, we end up with crap like VHS
and USB and Celine Dionne instead of Beta and Firewire and Lucinda Williams.
There are often good reasons for making decisions based on pure technical
considerations and fighting for competition in the marketplace, which ultimately
benefits all consumers. In fact, when curmudgeonly people like myself resist
the herd mentality and buy products that haven't won wide acceptance but are
technically superior, we do a service for all consumers, by sustaining
competition and demanding better performance from manufacturers.
In other words, people should think for themselves. The reason we have to put
up with so much bad software, stupid laws, and annoying celebrities, is because
sometimes we behave like sheep.
So which of my devices should I have refused to purchase since they weren't
available with firewire?
My 10D?
Any of my other 25 currently used USB devices?
Which ones should I have passed by in the name of firewire?
S
Shenan T. Stanley
Mark M said:So which of my devices should I have refused to purchase since they
weren't available with firewire?
My 10D?
Any of my other 25 currently used USB devices?
Which ones should I have passed by in the name of firewire?
The ones that don't work as expected? heh
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