Why does the Espon 2200 use colored inks to produce muddy "B/W" prints?

C

CWatters

Hecate said:
It doesn't use just the two blacks as that wouldn't give a sufficient
gradation.

I think we all understand that and sometimes we can accept the loss of
quality.

The question we're really trying to understand though is:

Does the "Colour = Black" mode of the 2200/2100....

a) restrict the printer to just using black (or black and light black)?

or

b) convert the image (greyscale or colour) to greyscale and print it using
all the carts colour carts?
 
H

Hecate

You are correct, however I get quite neutral B/W prints on my Epson 2100
using no special colour management, no special papers or settings (eg out of
the box) in daylight. However under artificial lighting they do show
different colour casts depending on the light source. I suspect this is what
the OP is seeing.
Yes, the lighting is important. However, I've found that colour casts,
whether B&W or colour are usually down to faulty management. I'm not
saying you're not right in this case, you may well be. :)

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
 
H

Hecate

I think we all understand that and sometimes we can accept the loss of
quality.

The question we're really trying to understand though is:

Does the "Colour = Black" mode of the 2200/2100....

a) restrict the printer to just using black (or black and light black)?

or

b) convert the image (greyscale or colour) to greyscale and print it using
all the carts colour carts?
Different question to the one asked by the OP who stated that his
images didn't turn out well when he only used black. Which, of course,
is due to the fact that only using black *doesn't* give you the ray
gradations when using the full gamut of inks.

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
 
C

CWatters

Different question to the one asked by the OP who stated that his
images didn't turn out well when he only used black. Which, of course,
is due to the fact that only using black *doesn't* give you the ray
gradations when using the full gamut of inks.

No he was complaining of two things in that mode. Reduced quality for the
reasons you give AND STILL a colour tint.

He said...

I've now checked the user guide and it says...

"The Color setting allows you to print in color or black-and-white. Click
Color to print in color, or Black to print in black-and-white or grayscale".

So it doesn't actually say that BLACK mode ONLY uses the black cart. I
suspect that Black Mode means "convert everything to greyscale and print it
using all the carts". Perhaps there isn't a Black _only_ mode on the
2200/2100?
 
H

Hecate

No he was complaining of two things in that mode. Reduced quality for the
reasons you give AND STILL a colour tint.

He said...


I've now checked the user guide and it says...

"The Color setting allows you to print in color or black-and-white. Click
Color to print in color, or Black to print in black-and-white or grayscale".

So it doesn't actually say that BLACK mode ONLY uses the black cart. I
suspect that Black Mode means "convert everything to greyscale and print it
using all the carts". Perhaps there isn't a Black _only_ mode on the
2200/2100?
Quite possibly. I've never investigated it that deeply. I just set up
my system as I would normally (colour managed) and it works.

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
 
J

jcdill

Hecate said:
Different question to the one asked by the OP who stated that his
her

images didn't turn out well when he only used black.

I never said anything of the sort, I said the exact opposite, it was
only when I said "use black ink only" that I finally got acceptable
prints.
Which, of course,
is due to the fact that only using black *doesn't* give you the ray
gradations when using the full gamut of inks.

The problem is that I can't get the printer to JUST USE BLACK without
it snarling that it supposedly doens't give good results. I set the
color management to monochrome/gray, but it STILL USED COLORED INKS and
still produced ugly color casts on the images.

You say it's impossible to produce good b/w prints without using color.
I disagree, it worked fine for hundreds of years in the darkroom, and
it worked fine with computer printers before we had color printers and
all they had was black ink to work with.

My printer has both black and light black inks. I was using Epson
inks, and tried both Epson and Costco (Ilford) papers (at the
suggestion of the Epson technician), tried both glossy and semi-gloss
papers, etc. and was unable to get ANY settings to produce crisp b/w
prints EXCEPT by checking "use black ink only" and getting that warning
that the prints wouldn't come out OK. What irks me is that only when I
ignored that warning did I get prints that were BLACK and WHITE instead
of BROWN MUD and PINK MUD and BLUE MUD.

I'm going down to my father's this week, I'll take along my scanner and
scan some of the images from his album to show you what I mean.

jc
 
J

jcdill

The color cast was obvious in incadescent, florescent and natural
lighting situations. I was printing at night, with incadescent
lighting in the room, the photos were displayed in a room with both
lighting conditions, and I also test viewed them with natural light
from a window.

jc
 
S

Stanley Krute

Hi jc

You're wrestling a tarbaby with anguished
thoughts of Epson-coulda-shoulda.

Since you've got a 2200, and you want
b/w prints, and the Epson driver doesn't
let you do that well just using the b/w inks,
you're stuck with the multi-color technique
they've implemented.

But all is not lost: folks are getting neutral/controllable
B/W prints from the 2200 using the Harrington
quadtone profiles.

Here's a link:

http://harrington.com/QuadToneRIP.html

On that page, you'll find a link for the 2200
profile using the UltraChrome inks:

http://harrington.com/QTR/2200-UC.sit

These profiles are try-before-u-buy $50 shareware.

Assuming your time is worth something,
seems this is the way you should go.

Happy neutrality...

-- stan
 
C

CWatters

The color cast was obvious in incadescent, florescent and natural
lighting situations. I was printing at night, with incadescent
lighting in the room, the photos were displayed in a room with both
lighting conditions, and I also test viewed them with natural light
from a window.


Did you get my email? If you like send me a B/W image I'll try and print it
on my 2100 and send it back by snail mail. I'd be interested to know how it
compares. Perhaps I have the same problem but my eyes are out of spec or I'm
not fussy enough :) I don't think so though.

(e-mail address removed)
(remove BOX)
 
H

Hecate


My apologies. I've got mistaken for a "he" far too often as well. :)
I never said anything of the sort, I said the exact opposite, it was
only when I said "use black ink only" that I finally got acceptable
prints.


The problem is that I can't get the printer to JUST USE BLACK without
it snarling that it supposedly doens't give good results. I set the
color management to monochrome/gray, but it STILL USED COLORED INKS and
still produced ugly color casts on the images.

And that's why you need colour management.
You say it's impossible to produce good b/w prints without using color.
I disagree, it worked fine for hundreds of years in the darkroom, and
it worked fine with computer printers before we had color printers and
all they had was black ink to work with.

No, I said it's impossible to get good B&W prints suing this printer
and the colour ink set without using colour. You obviously do not
understand the difference between darkroom printing and inkjet
printing. They are not the same and you cannot compare them.
My printer has both black and light black inks. I was using Epson
inks, and tried both Epson and Costco (Ilford) papers (at the
suggestion of the Epson technician), tried both glossy and semi-gloss
papers, etc. and was unable to get ANY settings to produce crisp b/w
prints EXCEPT by checking "use black ink only" and getting that warning
that the prints wouldn't come out OK. What irks me is that only when I
ignored that warning did I get prints that were BLACK and WHITE instead
of BROWN MUD and PINK MUD and BLUE MUD.

That's because you don't use colour management. The printer is using
colour inks and you need management of the system. If, on the other
hand you were using Permajet Monochrome Pro or Lyson Small Gamut -
you'd still need proper colour management to get a neutral print as
opposed to a toned print which is why both companies provide new
printer profiles as well as profiles for there papers. Which is
another thing - the paper you print on will make a difference to the
resulting colour.
I'm going down to my father's this week, I'll take along my scanner and
scan some of the images from his album to show you what I mean.
OK, but it's not going to change the fact that to get neutral prints
you require colour management.

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
 
C

CWatters

Hecate wrote:
I never said anything of the sort, I said the exact opposite, it was
only when I said "use black ink only" that I finally got acceptable
prints.

Hi Hecate,

Now you are really confusing me...

You say you get acceptable prints when using "black ink only" but a colour
cast "when I've selected the grayscale printer property". Can you tell us
where you are setting these options? I ask because my Epson 2100 has only
two setting on the Printing Preferences. These two settings are "Color" and
"Black". I don't have a "greyscale printer property". Does the 2200 have
another option?

Colin
 
H

Hecate

Hi Hecate,

Now you are really confusing me...

You say you get acceptable prints when using "black ink only" but a colour
cast "when I've selected the grayscale printer property". Can you tell us
where you are setting these options? I ask because my Epson 2100 has only
two setting on the Printing Preferences. These two settings are "Color" and
"Black". I don't have a "greyscale printer property". Does the 2200 have
another option?
No, you're getting the quotes mixed up. It was the other woman that
said that, not me. :)

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
 
H

Hecate

Sorry I meant hi Jc....
<g> As I just pointed out before reading this message ;-0.

Goddamn, now we're *all* confused ;-)

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
 
H

Hecate

Oh yeah, it's always the "other woman" :)
LOL!

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
 

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