Why does the Espon 2200 use colored inks to produce muddy "B/W" prints?

[CWatters]

I'm not going to explain everything in detail, but here are some hints:

It uses the colored inks to give you good resolution and with proper
profiles/color management or a suitable RIP color cast free B/W prints.
Printing with only black/light grey has to use heavy dithering to
produce a rich B/W tonal range.

It's been a while since I printed a B&W photo so I decided to run a quick
test on my Epson 2100...

I took a colour photo and converted it to greyscale using Irfanview then
printed it on TDK Pro Quality Photo Glossy (my favorite glossy paper for the
2100). I used the out of the box drivers and default/automatic settings, no
extra profiles, greyscale balancing or other tweaking..

Settings were
Glossy Photo paper
Glossy Black cart
Colour
Mode = Auto
Quality slider set to Quality

The resulting black and white print looks very neutral when viewed outside
in daylight with a light cloud cover. In fact to my untrained eye it looks
close to perfect.

I expected some change when viewed indoors under artificial light but
perhaps not quite so dramatic as I got. The same print looks quite
brown/pink or blue depending on the light source. Is there any evidence that
inkjet prints exhibit a different response to lighting than conventional
film prints?

 

[Hecate]

The resulting black and white print looks very neutral when viewed outside
in daylight with a light cloud cover. In fact to my untrained eye it looks
close to perfect.

I expected some change when viewed indoors under artificial light but
perhaps not quite so dramatic as I got. The same print looks quite
brown/pink or blue depending on the light source. Is there any evidence that
inkjet prints exhibit a different response to lighting than conventional
film prints?

It's not really a different response. I find that the light source
alters the colour pe4rception, sometimes subtly, sometimes not so
subtly, whatever you're viewing. It's down to metamerism. You can
check each light source with a GATF RHEM light indicator. The only
source I trust for my images is in the room I do my photoshopping and
printing where the indicator shows the light source to be suitable for
colour correct work.

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[jcdill]

You are claiming the following:
The printer comes from Epson. Agreed.
The driver comes from Epson. Agreed.
The ink comes from Epson. Agreed.
The paper comes from Epson. Does it?

I have tried both Epson papers and Kirkland (Ilford) papers. Same
problem with both papers. In any case, the paper used doesn't change
the INK used, the ink is colore tinted ink and produces a colored image
on all papers.

The software comes from Epson. No. Probably Adobe.
The PC operating system comes from Epson. No - Microsoft.
The color management software comes from Epson. No - Adobe again.

I'm not using ANY color management sofware. Why should I, the image is
in *gray* scale - it has NO color. Why should the operating system
have any impact on this, the operating system isn't handling the
details of the color of the image. The Adobe software is only used to
verify that the image is in fact in *gray* scale - I have the same
problems printing from Irfanview, from XnView, or from either of my
browers (Firefox, IE), which makes the common component of interest the
driver and printer.

I still don't understand WHY the driver/printer is using colored inks
and producing images with an obvious color cast, *even* when I've
selected the grayscale printer property.

sigh

jc

 

[jcdill]

It could also be a paper type issue.

I was using the right paper type. I was on the phone with Epson for
over an hour, and we tried Epson glossy, semi-gloss, and Kirkland
(Ilford) semi-gloss papers, all with the right paper type settings, and
I had obviously color-tinted B/W prints from each of these attempts.

jc

 

[jcdill]

Google on "color calibration monitor". It's the monitor that's the
problem, not the printer. If it doesn't print what you see on the
monitor, that's the monitor's fault, not the printer's.

ARUGH. I don't CARE what the monitor shows. The file is a *grayscale*
file, therefore it only has image data for shades of gray. I want the
printer to print in shades of gray, per the data in the FILE. I
shouldn't need to "profile my monitor" to get the printer to correctly
print the grayscale data that is in the FILE.

The monitor is an output device, the printer is an output device. The
printer should correctly output the grayscale image irrespective of
what the monitor outputs.

jc

 

[jcdill]

Epson's drivers, in general allow for fairly neutral full color
ink images when produced from a monochrome source. If you are using 3rd
party inks that may explain the results being less than perfect.

This problem occured with the Epson ink cartridges that came with the
printer and persisted with the Espon ink cartridges purchased to
replace the ones that were used up (I used up 2 pale blue and 2 pale
pink cartridge (and one dark black cartridge)) while printing these
"black and white" photos (before I switched to forcing the printer to
print with JUST the black ink for the remaining photos).

jc

 

[Stealth]

Perhaps because, from the ground up, the 2200 (as are all Epson printers)
designed to be COLOR printers...

 

[Skip M]

ARUGH. I don't CARE what the monitor shows. The file is a *grayscale*
file, therefore it only has image data for shades of gray. I want the
printer to print in shades of gray, per the data in the FILE. I
shouldn't need to "profile my monitor" to get the printer to correctly
print the grayscale data that is in the FILE.

The monitor is an output device, the printer is an output device. The
printer should correctly output the grayscale image irrespective of
what the monitor outputs.

jc

Wow, you've gotten some interesting answers. As far as I know, there's only
two ways to beat the "color printer printing grayscale images." One is to
use only grayscale inks, an option several of my acquaintances have gone
for. I've forgotten the mfr. name, starts with an "L", but they make
dedicated inks for grayscale printing for Epson printers. The other way is
to use a different driver. There are several on the market, but right now,
your printer basically doesn't believe that you really don't want any color.

 

[Skip M]

This problem occured with the Epson ink cartridges that came with the
printer and persisted with the Espon ink cartridges purchased to
replace the ones that were used up (I used up 2 pale blue and 2 pale
pink cartridge (and one dark black cartridge)) while printing these
"black and white" photos (before I switched to forcing the printer to
print with JUST the black ink for the remaining photos).

jc

Just in case you're starting to feel like no one gets it, I had consistent
problems with my Epson 880 getting color tinged greyscale images. As do
everybody else I know with Epson 1200, 2000 and 2200, which is why the ones
who want good prints use dedicated b&w inks in a dedicated 2200 printer.
I've never seen "neutral" b&w images from an unmodified Epson printer, all
have had a slight color tinge. The manager at the local Calumet was
experimenting with a new driver and getting amazing tones from his 2200,
I'll check with him today and see what driver he was using. All I remember
was that it was $500 or so...

 

[Hecate]

I still don't understand WHY the driver/printer is using colored inks
and producing images with an obvious color cast, *even* when I've
selected the grayscale printer property.

It's been explained to you several times before so let's have one
*more* try:

The printer uses black ink for black. It uses "paper white" (i.e. the
base colour) for white. Anything in between, i.e. the shades of gray
are simulated by MIXING THE COLOURS.

Consequently, you need PROPER COLOUR MANAGEMENT to get the gradations
of gray that you require to get a cool, neutral or warm print.

If you don't understand what I've told you please get a book on colour
management, or one that contains a chapter on colour management.

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[Hecate]

Just in case you're starting to feel like no one gets it, I had consistent
problems with my Epson 880 getting color tinged greyscale images. As do
everybody else I know with Epson 1200, 2000 and 2200, which is why the ones
who want good prints use dedicated b&w inks in a dedicated 2200 printer.
I've never seen "neutral" b&w images from an unmodified Epson printer, all
have had a slight color tinge.

I get them all the time. It completely depends upon the colour
management system you use, the inks that you use and the paper
choices. I can successfully get either as cool, neutral or warm tone
print almost at will now.

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[Guy Jordan]

Wolf wrote:




ARUGH. I don't CARE what the monitor shows. The file is a *grayscale*
file, therefore it only has image data for shades of gray. I want the
printer to print in shades of gray, per the data in the FILE. I
shouldn't need to "profile my monitor" to get the printer to correctly
print the grayscale data that is in the FILE.

The monitor is an output device, the printer is an output device. The
printer should correctly output the grayscale image irrespective of
what the monitor outputs.

jc

I tracked down the same issue on the Epson C82 printer on my Mac OSX
computer. The print driver from Epson forced color ink for greyscale
printing on all papers except matte finish because the black ink would
not stick to the glossy surfaces. I realize the C82 is not a "Photo"
printer but it does a very good job with black ink only on the matte
papers. Besides, I prefer matte paper for normal viewing situations.
Glare in spaces with uncontrolled lighting ruins print viewing for me.

-Guy

 

[Ivor Floppy]

It's been explained to you several times before so let's have one
*more* try:

The printer uses black ink for black. It uses "paper white" (i.e. the
base colour) for white. Anything in between, i.e. the shades of gray
are simulated by MIXING THE COLOURS.

Consequently, you need PROPER COLOUR MANAGEMENT to get the gradations
of gray that you require to get a cool, neutral or warm print.

If you don't understand what I've told you please get a book on colour
management, or one that contains a chapter on colour management.

You do also find that 'black' inks.. errr.. arn't. 3rd party inks especially
are often tinted towards magenta or green instead of true black, and the
paper used can make that difference quite noticable.

 

[Brian May]

Hecate> The printer uses black ink for black. It uses "paper
Hecate> white" (i.e. the base colour) for white. Anything in
Hecate> between, i.e. the shades of gray are simulated by MIXING
Hecate> THE COLOURS.

errrr....

According to my reading of the Epson website, the Epson Styles Photo
2200 (I assume this is the same printer?) is a 7 color ink jet
printer, and the colors are:

Photo black
Cyan
Magenta
Yellow
Light Cyan
Light Magenta
Light Black
Matte Black

Yes, thats 8 colors, my impression is you have to choose if you want
to install Photo black or Matte black.

To the original poster:

What ink cartridges do you have installed? I assume you have photo
black and light black?

To this poster:

I believe the "light black" ink color should mean true black and white
photo printing is possible without resorting to colored inks.

Disclaimer:

I have the HP7960, 8 ink colors, and it seems to work fine for black
and white prints. I don't have the Epson.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

In general, Epson's drivers do produce relatively neutral monotone
(greyscale) images if Epson inks and papers are used. Using the full
color inks is supposed to provide a smoother gradient because the number
of dots is increased considerably. The idea is by using the colored
inks in equal densities, the inks should appear neutral grey. It's not
easy to accomplish, since the drivers use 2 pigment loads for the C and
M but only one for the Y.

I don't know enough about the 2200 as to if the driver can be convinced
to just use the light and full pigment load blacks. I believe the light
load black tends to be warm, but having the two densities should in
principal allow for a reasonable monochrome grey print.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

BTW, that issue was resolved (regarding the black ink sticking to glossy
paper), first by introducing a different paper and new driver, and
secondly, by a new black ink formulation starting with the C84.

The original reason this was done was to make a super fast drying black
ink for office text work where 8-12 pages a second was expected from
using laser printers.

Art

 

[Hecate]

Hecate> The printer uses black ink for black. It uses "paper
Hecate> white" (i.e. the base colour) for white. Anything in
Hecate> between, i.e. the shades of gray are simulated by MIXING
Hecate> THE COLOURS.

errrr....

According to my reading of the Epson website, the Epson Styles Photo
2200 (I assume this is the same printer?) is a 7 color ink jet
printer, and the colors are:

Photo black
Cyan
Magenta
Yellow
Light Cyan
Light Magenta
Light Black
Matte Black

Yes, thats 8 colors, my impression is you have to choose if you want
to install Photo black or Matte black.
Correct.


To this poster:

I believe the "light black" ink color should mean true black and white
photo printing is possible without resorting to colored inks.

Wrong.

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[Hecate]

In general, Epson's drivers do produce relatively neutral monotone
(greyscale) images if Epson inks and papers are used. Using the full
color inks is supposed to provide a smoother gradient because the number
of dots is increased considerably. The idea is by using the colored
inks in equal densities, the inks should appear neutral grey. It's not
easy to accomplish, since the drivers use 2 pigment loads for the C and
M but only one for the Y.

I don't know enough about the 2200 as to if the driver can be convinced
to just use the light and full pigment load blacks. I believe the light
load black tends to be warm, but having the two densities should in
principal allow for a reasonable monochrome grey print.

It doesn't use just the two blacks as that wouldn't give a sufficient
gradation. However, I've had no problems, on a colour managed system,
getting neutral prints suing both Epson inks and Permajet inks.

The *only* way to have more control than that is to use something like
either the Permajet Monochrome Pro ink set or the Lyson Small Gamut
inks which are specifically for B&BW.

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[CWatters]

I was using the right paper type. I was on the phone with Epson for
over an hour, and we tried Epson glossy, semi-gloss, and Kirkland
(Ilford) semi-gloss papers, all with the right paper type settings, and
I had obviously color-tinted B/W prints from each of these attempts.

Out of interest what were the lighting conditions?

 

[CWatters]

I get them all the time. It completely depends upon the colour
management system you use

You are correct, however I get quite neutral B/W prints on my Epson 2100
using no special colour management, no special papers or settings (eg out of
the box) in daylight. However under artificial lighting they do show
different colour casts depending on the light source. I suspect this is what
the OP is seeing.