Whats best way to back up a system?

[Leythos]

When recreating the system on a new drive using an image utility is it
necessary to format, partition and install the operating system on the new
drive before restoring from the backup drive?

Not using Ghost (or most of the others) - the Image, including all disk
info (to make it bootable) is included in the Image Saved and in the
Image Restored - this would be a DISK IMAGE, not a partition image.

 

[Leythos]

Yup.

That's what I use. I do once a week fulls, daily differentials and I
keep 4 weeks' worth of backups.

I've had to restore from a backup after my system device failed. Worked
fine. I've also pulled individual files and folders out of backup files
when I've brainfarted and deleted the wrong tree.

While NT Backup will work, it's no where near as simple as using Ghost
or other third party IMAGE programs.

In order to run NT Backup you have to be running the OS and have a
working copy of Windows running - now, if you don't have Windows in a
working order, you have to reinstall it, get your backups, restore them
properly over-top of the OS and then it will work.

With an Image, you boot from Diskette or CD, run the Image program,
select the Source File, select the Destination Drive, done.

 

[Leythos]

Yes that can be done.

On a single machine, without installing the OS, you can not run Windows
BACKUP to restore the backup.

 

[Blair]

The images are complete backups, including system files and drivers. No,
you cannot copy XP to another computer...even XP if it is not identical in
every single way.

I am devastated! I have assumed that when I copied my image from XP PC to my
98 PC that it was a self contained file and when I wished to restore it
would restore it complete without any reference to the 98 operating system
on the PC.
You are telling me that I have been wasting my time and it wouldn't have
worked!
What I believed was that I was copying the whole disk and not copying XP
Blair

 

[Z]

if you have a second hdd in the machine, you can ghost a bootable image to
that drive, all that needs to be done in the event of failure is to change
the jumper on the drive to become the master and boot 2 minute job, do this
on a regular basis myself

That method allows you to save exactly one image. Useful if the hard
drive failed, not useful if you need to go back to 5 days ago. And not
useful if you need just a single file from 2 days ago.

 

[Z]

On a single machine, without installing the OS, you can not run Windows
BACKUP to restore the backup.

A terrible oversight that I hope the Vista console corrects.

 

[-rwxrw-r--]

I want a means of backing up my whole system, applications, data, and
everything including the operating system to a separate hard drive. If my
hard disk dies I don't want to have to reload the operating system and all
its updates, reload all my software and their updates, recreate users, and
etc, etc, etc. This literally takes days. I want to be able to put in a
new hard drive and completely recreate my entire system from my backup
drive and be back up and running in a couple hours.

Will the backup utility supplied with XP do this?

Of course not. What INCLUDED software that comes bundled with XP can be
relied upon to do much of anything? One usually has to find a third-party
app to get full functionality for a particular job.

Personally, I'd suggest you look at Acronis True Image software. It'll allow
you to disk image your XP hard drive to a file or files on your other drive
and makes for quick and easy recovery should you need to of everything on
your main hard drive.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

That method allows you to save exactly one image. Useful
if the hard drive failed, not useful if you need to go back to
5 days ago. And not useful if you need just a single file from
2 days ago.

1) Ghost and Casper XP (and a few other utilities) can make
a bootable image (i.e. a "clone") of a single partition and
put it among other partitions on another HD. If your OS-to-
be-archived is small enough and the destination HD is
large enough, you can put several clones on a single
backup HD. If you put enough entries in each clone's
boot.ini file (one entry for each partition on the backup HD),
any partition on the backup HD can act as the loader (i.e.
act as the "system" partition in Microsoft's terminology) to
load any of the other partitions.

All that is necessary to boot any one of the partitions is
to make one of the primary partitions "active", and that
partition will be the "system" partition, i.e. it will run the
loader and present the boot menu. To make the backup
HD take control for booting, you can remove or disconnect
the main HD, or you can simply readjust the HD boot order
in the BIOS to put the backup HD at the head of the boot order.

To backup 5 OSes on a single HD, you can have a maximum
of 3 partitions be Primary partitions - any one of which can
marked as the "active" partition that will do the loading - and
the 4th partition can be an Extended partition which can hold
several more clones, each clone selectable for loading by
the boot.ini file residing in one of the Primary partitions.

2) A simpler system would involve copying the main HD to one of
several backup HDs, each backup HD sitting in a removable
tray. For that operation, you can use not only Ghost or
Casper XP, but also True Image (which can only clone an
entire HD, not just a designated partition). The single partition
on the backup HD would always be the "active" partition, and
no knowledge of boot.ini syntax would be necessary.

To use a backup HD, just slide in the appropriate tray, remove
or disconnect the main HD, or readjust the BIOS's HD boot order
to put the backup HD at the head of the boot order, and restart
the computer.

3) To just copy a file from the backup HD, just connect it or slide
in its removable tray and boot up. The backup partition will
be visible to the running OS as just another Local Disk, and
you can drag 'n drop files between the partitions.

4) CAUTION: When starting up a clone for the 1st time, don't
let it see its "parent" OS, or it will forever be dependent on
the continued presence of its "parent". Once it has booted
and run for the 1st time independently, it can be allowed to
to see its "parent" OS with no problems.

Making the "parent" invisible can be done in several ways:
a) Simply disconnect or remove the source HD,
b) Cut the power to the source HD (works best if the 2 HDs
are on different IDE channels),
c) Use Partition Magic to "hide" the source partition
(done from a bootable floppy or an OS on a 3rd partition).

*TimDaniels*

 

[Timothy Daniels]

sorry this can also be done with removable drives, again just change to
master insert drive in the pc and boot again 2 minute job, no need to install
windows format or anything else ghost takes care of the full process
been a lifesaver for me on a number of occasions

What is done with the main drive? If it remains in the computer
and it and the removable HD were put on the same cable (i.e.
same IDE channel), the BIOS's default HD boot order would
select the main HD (the Master) for booting. If the main HD were
always jumpered as Slave to allow the removable HD to take over
as Master whenever it appeared, the main HD wouldn't boot when
the removable HD were present for the cloning. For the simple
slide-in-and-take-over to work, the main drive would have to be
on the 2nd IDE channel (as Master or Slave), and the removable
HD would have to be on the 1st IDE channel. That is because the
default HD boot order gives the 1st channel (ch. 0) precedence
over the 2nd channel (ch. 1).

If the 2 HDs are to be on the same channel at the same time,
the BIOS's HD boot order must be changed to put the appropriate
HD at the head of the boot order.

Of course, none of this has to be dealt with if the both the main HD
and the backup HD are in removable trays and insertable into 2
separate racks. Then, simply removing the main HD would pass
booting control to the backup HD.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Rock]

On a single machine, without installing the OS, you can not run Windows
BACKUP to restore the backup.

I didn't think we were talking about windows backup.

 

[Anna]

What is done with the main drive? If it remains in the computer
and it and the removable HD were put on the same cable (i.e.
same IDE channel), the BIOS's default HD boot order would
select the main HD (the Master) for booting. If the main HD were
always jumpered as Slave to allow the removable HD to take over
as Master whenever it appeared, the main HD wouldn't boot when
the removable HD were present for the cloning. For the simple
slide-in-and-take-over to work, the main drive would have to be
on the 2nd IDE channel (as Master or Slave), and the removable
HD would have to be on the 1st IDE channel. That is because the
default HD boot order gives the 1st channel (ch. 0) precedence
over the 2nd channel (ch. 1).

If the 2 HDs are to be on the same channel at the same time,
the BIOS's HD boot order must be changed to put the appropriate
HD at the head of the boot order.

Of course, none of this has to be dealt with if the both the main HD
and the backup HD are in removable trays and insertable into 2
separate racks. Then, simply removing the main HD would pass
booting control to the backup HD.

*TimDaniels*

No doubt the OP is long-gone, thoroughly confused over the complexity of
this thread as it has evolved since his or her original query. I hope that's
not the case, but I fear it is.

Anyway, I hope he or she will forgive me for not specifically responding to
his/her query while I respond to Tim's comments. And I hope (most likely, a
forlorn one) that the OP will gain some measure of understanding from all
that has gone on re the discussion of this issue.

Tim, I think you know from my previous postings that I am a strong proponent
of users equipping their desktop computers with *two* removable hard drives
in their mobile racks. For many reasons (which I won't go into here) it is,
in my view, a most desirable hardware configuration for many, if not most
desktop PC users. The flexibility & peace of mind one gains from this
arrangement is enormous. But we'll leave any further discussion of the
advantages of removable drives for another day, OK?

However, we frequently find that for one reason or another (usually the lack
of two available 5 1/4" bays), the user can install only one removable HD.
Their other HD will be an internal one. In that situation our usual
configuration method (of course, I'm speaking of PATA drives here) is to
connect the removable drive as Primary Master and the internal one as
Secondary Master. The removable drive becomes the user's day-to-day working
drive while the internal one acts as recipient of the clone for backup
purposes. Under these circumstances the system will ordinarily boot to the
removable HD. Should the removable drive be disconnected (a simple turn of
the keylock to the OFF position), the system will boot to the internal HD.

In cloning the contents of one drive to another we usually work with Ghost's
2003 bootable floppy disk (or bootable CD), or if using the Acronis True
Image program, the ATI bootable CD. The process is simple, straightforward,
and effective.

Having said all this, let me reiterate my opinion that the most desirable
hardware configuration for many, if not most PC users to equip their desktop
computer with *two* removable drives. Should that be not feasible, we
recommend that a USB/Firewire external hard drive be employed for backup
purposes, rather than an internal HD. Obviously a more secure backup system
will result from having an external device rather than an internal one as
the recipient of the clone. But, for one reason or another, should the user
be unable or unwilling to use a removable or external drive for backing up
their system, then a internal drive will have to suffice. We do *not*
recommend using a different (separate) partition on a single drive for
backup purposes.

So, to summarize, using a removable HD and an internal HD, viable clones of
one's system can be created using a disk imaging program such as the ones
discussed.
Anna

 

[Ken Blake]

In

Will the process you described also work if the image drive is
not a
removable drive but is instead a second system hard drive used
only
for the image?

Yes, imaging works identically whether or not the drive is
removable.

However, if you're planning on backing up to a non-removable hard
drive, I urge you to rethink that strategy. I don't recommend
backup to a second non-removable hard drive because it leaves you
susceptible to simultaneous loss of the original and backup to
many of the most common dangers: severe power glitches, nearby
lightning strikes, virus attacks, even theft of the computer.


In my view, secure backup needs to be on removable media, and not
kept in the computer. For really secure backup (needed, for
example, if the life of your business depends on your data) you
should have multiple generations of backup, and at least one of
those generations should be stored off-site.


--
Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
Please reply to the newsgroup

 

[Ron Martell]

I am devastated! I have assumed that when I copied my image from XP PC to my
98 PC that it was a self contained file and when I wished to restore it
would restore it complete without any reference to the 98 operating system
on the PC.
You are telling me that I have been wasting my time and it wouldn't have
worked!
What I believed was that I was copying the whole disk and not copying XP
Blair

You have misunderstood.

Where the backup image is stored is basically irrelevant, provided the
drive is accessible and has enough capacity.

What the original comment meant was that when you restore an image you
must restore it to the same PC that it was created from, otherwise
there will be problems.

You cannot make a backup image of Computer A: and then restore that
image to the hard drive of Computer B:, thereby obtaining two
functioning computers (A and B) with the same operating system,
installed apps, etc.

Hope this clarifies the situation.

Good luck

Ron Martell Duncan B.C. Canada
--
Microsoft MVP
On-Line Help Computer Service
http://onlinehelp.bc.ca

In memory of a dear friend Alex Nichol MVP
http://aumha.org/alex.htm

 

[Leythos]

What the original comment meant was that when you restore an image you
must restore it to the same PC that it was created from, otherwise
there will be problems.

You cannot make a backup image of Computer A: and then restore that
image to the hard drive of Computer B:, thereby obtaining two
functioning computers (A and B) with the same operating system,
installed apps, etc.

Hope this clarifies the situation.

Actually, if you consider a "repair/reinstall" you can restore the image
and regain full use of your system. I just did three of these over the
weekend and found it worked perfectly.

 

[Blair]

You have misunderstood.

Where the backup image is stored is basically irrelevant, provided the
drive is accessible and has enough capacity.

What the original comment meant was that when you restore an image you
must restore it to the same PC that it was created from, otherwise
there will be problems.

You cannot make a backup image of Computer A: and then restore that
image to the hard drive of Computer B:, thereby obtaining two
functioning computers (A and B) with the same operating system,
installed apps, etc.

Hope this clarifies the situation.

Good luck

Ron Martell Duncan B.C. Canada
--
Microsoft MVP
On-Line Help Computer Service
http://onlinehelp.bc.ca

In memory of a dear friend Alex Nichol MVP
http://aumha.org/alex.htm

Thanks for clarifying what was intended in the original comment. I am
relieved
Regards
Blair

 

[Ron Martell]

Actually, if you consider a "repair/reinstall" you can restore the image
and regain full use of your system. I just did three of these over the
weekend and found it worked perfectly.

The need to do a Repair Install and also to provide a different
product key, are what I was alluding to when I said "otherwise
there will be problems".

Ron Martell Duncan B.C. Canada
--
Microsoft MVP
On-Line Help Computer Service
http://onlinehelp.bc.ca

In memory of a dear friend Alex Nichol MVP
http://aumha.org/alex.htm

 

[Leythos]

The need to do a Repair Install and also to provide a different
product key, are what I was alluding to when I said "otherwise
there will be problems".

You can use the same product key/COA as long as it's a repair - you are
even permitted to restore an OEM install to a new board as long as it
was to replace a defective board.

 

[Guest]

i am trying to backup my hard drive to a removable hard drive using the
windows backup utility,it will make a shadow imaje copy,but asks for a floppy
to be inserted to create a ASR diskette,and since i do not have a floppy
drive in my computor,what is the alternative?

 

[Rock]

i am trying to backup my hard drive to a removable hard drive using the
windows backup utility,it will make a shadow imaje copy,but asks for a floppy
to be inserted to create a ASR diskette,and since i do not have a floppy
drive in my computor,what is the alternative?

There is none for ASR. It must have a floppy to work. The only work
around is don't use the ASR wizard.

 

[Guest]

I want a means of backing up my whole system, applications, data, and
everything including the operating system to a separate hard drive. If my
hard disk dies I don't want to have to reload the operating system and all
its updates, reload all my software and their updates, recreate users, and
etc, etc, etc. This literally takes days. I want to be able to put in a new
hard drive and completely recreate my entire system from my backup drive and
be back up and running in a couple hours.

Will the backup utility supplied with XP do this?