WGA General Queston

[POP]

Hi,

I find the problems et al with WGA interesting to read, and it
does appear some people are having problems with it. This
question is only one of curiousity so far, however. My WGA
excursions have always been successful so technically I'm fine;
so far, I think, anyway<g>.

My question:
Is WGA creating a database or something similar on my disc?
If so, anyone know where it's located and what its size is?
What's in it and why?
And at which parts of the boot process is it checked?

Mostly, I want to see if it's responsible for a noticeable slow
down in boot times and initial programs-ready-to-run times. Yes,
I'm aware there are many, many variables that determine the
timing of various boot time functions, but this coincides with
the last two WGA installs.
Probably unrelated, but: Shut down times have also lengthened
to an easily noticeable degree and Hibernate has extended itself
to be minutes in duration where it used to be much faster.

And a comment about downloads: It's irritating to Shut Down and
discover the installing updates, don't touch anything messages
interruption to the shut down process. Installations need to
hold off until the next boot up.

TIA,
Pop

 

[Jeff]

Hi,
To question#1-yes it is creating a database.
Question#2-use search-and type in WGA and it will show you where
they(multiple entries) are.
Question#3-There are text files associated with WGA;that not only validate
your O.S. but also gather info on installed programs-even non-MS
applications;
Very interesting about this last point; even if WGA is justifiable; what do
3rd party applications have to do with validating MS O.S.'s?

 

[POP]

Hi Jeff,
Inline:

Hi,
To question#1-yes it is creating a database.
Question#2-use search-and type in WGA and it will show you
where they(multiple entries) are.

Hmm, guess I should have looked a little harder before asking:
Thank you!

Question#3-There are text files associated with WGA;that
not only validate your O.S. but also gather info on
installed programs-even non-MS applications;
Very interesting about this last point; even if WGA is
justifiable; what do 3rd party applications have to do with
validating MS O.S.'s?

That's an excellent question. I'm not very crazy about WGA and
trying hard to hold my tongue on negatives about it until I learn
whether that's a good thing to do or not<g>. I'm still making it
ask me every time before I let it call home, and it doesn't seem
to matter whether it does or not, which is another interest I
have. I do have some monitors I could use to see what it's
actually doing but they're so much work to interpret I was hoping
to avoid doing that since it's changing every few days it seems.
Mostly, at this point, I'm interested in what's taking how
long to do what during and immediately after bootups/restarts.
So far, unrelated to WGA near as I can tell, I've found 2
thirty-second (30,000 mS, or 30 Second) delays in the boot while
it's waiting for something to finish starting or to ack itself.
Turned out to be services I didn't need anyway.
I completely denied WGA for two days while I was doing that
investigation and, related or not, the machine started doing
things a lot slower, and as soon as I re-allowed it, the speed
came back, but not back to where it was. That could easily have
been conincidence and something self-healed, but ... I've got too
much time on my hands (I WISH!), so ... .

Thanks!

Pop

 

[Jeff]

Pop,
Glad I could help.
This is a very contentious program;to many people; none in the
least,counterfeiter's (which is "supposedly" what WGA was designed to stop).
I can totally agree with MS stance on this issue;as one has the right to
protect their property.
The issue is not about the purpose of WGA; the main issue is the method.
KB905474 is the update that is the little program that try's to "phone
home".
MS methodology about designing and deploying KB905474 is VERY suspect!
In fact;akin to Sony's use of rootkit technology;which;by the way;got Sony
into allot of HOT WATER.
KB905474 utilizes the very same methods that MS itself defines as
SPYWARE.And I would refer anyone;including MVP's to peruse this OFFICIAL MS
website.
http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/spyware/software/msft/analysis.mspx

Also,
When did the onus of responsibility shift to the end consumer to have to
prove;repeatedly!! that they obtained MS software legally?
Again, a VERY touchy subject for MS;and also it seems;for some MVP's
that spout company rhetoric. I would challenge anyone to refute these facts
about KB905474.
In closing; many people just won't care;and will say;it's only the bad
guys who are worried. Ah the times we live in I guess. But I still have a
choice. And being a lessee of legally obtained MS software; I choose not to
have KB905474 spying on me. Genuine Advantage Validation tool is one
thing;it only interacts if I want it to. Genuine Advantage
Notifications(KB905474) is however; a totally different matter.

Jeff

 

[Don Burnette]

Hi Jeff,
Inline:


Hmm, guess I should have looked a little harder before
asking: Thank you!


That's an excellent question. I'm not very crazy about
WGA and trying hard to hold my tongue on negatives about
it until I learn whether that's a good thing to do or
not<g>. I'm still making it ask me every time before I
let it call home, and it doesn't seem to matter whether
it does or not, which is another interest I have. I do
have some monitors I could use to see what it's actually
doing but they're so much work to interpret I was hoping
to avoid doing that since it's changing every few days
it seems. Mostly, at this point, I'm interested in what's
taking how long to do what during and immediately after
bootups/restarts. So far, unrelated to WGA near as I can
tell, I've found 2 thirty-second (30,000 mS, or 30
Second) delays in the boot while it's waiting for
something to finish starting or to ack itself. Turned out
to be services I didn't need anyway. I completely
denied WGA for two days while I was doing that
investigation and, related or not, the machine started
doing things a lot slower, and as soon as I re-allowed
it, the speed came back, but not back to where it was. That could easily
have been conincidence and something
self-healed, but ... I've got too much time on my hands
(I WISH!), so ... .
Thanks!

Pop

Hmmm, interesting.

I have noticed lately, my boot times have been extended longer than what
they usually are.
I updated the bios on my motherboard recently, and initially thought perhaps
that was the cause. But now, I wonder if it has anything to do with these
wga updates...

 

[antioch]

Hi Pop
Clipped/trimmed/intertwined/spliced replies and obs.

Hi,

My question:
Is WGA creating a database or something similar on my disc? If so,
anyone know where it's located and what its size is?

If not on your disk then somewhere else as well. Who knows????????

Mostly, I want to see if it's responsible for a noticeable slow down in
boot times .............................

Can't say I have noticed anything on boot time slowing down.
Turn Off - yes.
From Log Off to Turn Off is the same as it has always been, 5-10 secs to
save settings etc. Where it does take longer is when I hit Turn Off
Computer. That used to be 10 secs at the most - now it can take up to
25-30sec

Probably unrelated, but: Shut down times have also lengthened
to.........

See above reply.
If you have not done so already, go here and have your say - there are
plenty of threads to join or start your own - give MS hell.

http://forums.microsoft.com/Genuine/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=444&SiteID=25&PageID=0

At the moment some, including me, have not downloaded the latest WGA - want
to see what happens?
My firewall is blocking access to the net. and I turn off without
downloading.

Rgds
Antioch

Pop

SO AM I

 

[POP]

Jeff,

Just wanted to say, I think I pretty much agree with your
synopsis of the overall situation. I'm not sure I'd equate it to
the rootkit crapola, but I get what you mean.
I also got a chuckle from the link you posted; it is pretty
hypocritical, isn't it? Or should that be hyPERcritcical? <G>
They both work on one plane or another.

I have a ways to go yet, because I'm currently chasing down two
30,000 mS (30Second) delays in the boot process, one of which
appears as though it might be WGA. That's a full minute of
booting time invested there, so I'm interested.

I'll pass on the opportunity for a lot of hyperbole on Beta
software and the "good" ness of WGA for now because I'm still in
the investigating stages so I'm trying to hold on on final
opinions other than the ones to do with my abhorring anything
done to my computer covertly, which is happening and which I
freely admit I invited but did not explicitly approve.

A few "funnies" I've found so far:
BTW, I ain't not no expert, and
NONE of these cause any problems I'm yet aware of, but:

Using Filemon from Sysinternals plus XP logs:
-- There are suddenly file failures appearing, along with some
policy failures, which ALL involve a mixture of folders and files
of the form "en-us" and "en". They exist with every boot and
restart, and are closely related to WGA calling home, and also
occur periodically as the machine sits idling.
Comparison to pre-WGA logs do NOT exhibit these failures.
Those logs are 100% SUCCESS results. WGA "appears" to be causing
several "File not Found" and "Folder/Path Not Found" messages to
be generated.
System Log is showing several WGA related warnings and a few
Failures too, none of which seem to result in anything bad that I
can identify. Yet.

The missing en* files are all either in ...\system32 or prefetch
or manifest locations/relationships. As yet I don't understand
the significance, if any, of the manifest failures to find en*.

To only the best of MY and my tools' abilities:

I did note that on my system at least, the only 3rd party info
going out with WGA is the Intel Chip Set. No idea why that is.
But, there's plenty of other information which would
specifically allow MS or most anyone with access to the right
records, as a matter of fact, to specifically and perfectly
identify ME as the original owner of this particular motherbord,
BIOS and peripheral set! There's enough information going out in
the WGA stream that, if you were to go to Gateway with that
information and they opened their database, you could find my
full name, address, phone, credit card, and god knows what else!
THIS has me pissed as you can imagine!
That preceding is making me wonder whether there might not be
a governemt association there somewhere, whether it be terrorism
based or whatever; there are some pretty inventive things going
on from our infamous gvt critter base.

Yes, I'm a tad paranoid, and I can justify my paranoias but don't
intend to bore you with that.
Except for identity theft, I have little to fear and don't
care who knows what I bought or where I was when, but ... this
information coulld be very valuable to the "bad guys" out there.
That I DO care about!
Something also tells me there is a staging of some sort going
on to create a push for "upgrading" to Vista when the time comes.
If fact, I'm kind of wondering if the WGA wasn't originally
intended to coincide with, or briefly precede the release of
Vista. I'll bet you a free cup of coffee in the cafeteria
there's a connection there.

I've come across a plethora of other little goodies too but I
need to shorten my verbosity here<g>: I tend to get like this
when my meds are working. I've no idea where I'm going with this
"investigation" but it's raising some important questions, at
least in my own mind at this point.

So, how's that for a "short" way of saying I agree with you?
<G> Sorry bout the missive!

You said: "> When did the onus of responsibility shift to the
end

consumer to have to prove;repeatedly!! that they obtained
MS software legally?"

and I have to admit, that's the most valid statement I've seen
about it in some time. If you think about it, the whole paradigm
of licensing software as opposed to selling the rights to use it
has created a very lucrative market for the lawyers of the world.
Also, when will WGA come out of "Beta", is it permanent as
it's now designed, and what's in its future? Should I be digging
out my copy of Knoppix and OpenOffice and all those goodies or
not?

It's turning into quite a crock, so far.

Regards,

Pop

 

[Carey Frisch [MVP]]

Any files downloaded and installed from the Microsoft or Windows Update
web site are digitally signed by Microsoft Corporation. I have yet to see
one instance of "spyware" that came with a digitally signed certificate,
have you?

Microsoft Online Privacy Notice Highlights
http://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/default.aspx

Microsoft Online Privacy Statement
http://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/fullnotice.aspx

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows - Shell/User
Microsoft Community Newsgroups
news://msnews.microsoft.com/

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­----------------

:

| Pop,
| Glad I could help.
| This is a very contentious program;to many people; none in the
| least,counterfeiter's (which is "supposedly" what WGA was designed to stop).
| I can totally agree with MS stance on this issue;as one has the right to
| protect their property.
| The issue is not about the purpose of WGA; the main issue is the method.
| KB905474 is the update that is the little program that try's to "phone
| home".
| MS methodology about designing and deploying KB905474 is VERY suspect!
| In fact;akin to Sony's use of rootkit technology;which;by the way;got Sony
| into allot of HOT WATER.
| KB905474 utilizes the very same methods that MS itself defines as
| SPYWARE.And I would refer anyone;including MVP's to peruse this OFFICIAL MS
| website.
| http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/spyware/software/msft/analysis.mspx
|
| Also,
| When did the onus of responsibility shift to the end consumer to have to
| prove;repeatedly!! that they obtained MS software legally?
| Again, a VERY touchy subject for MS;and also it seems;for some MVP's
| that spout company rhetoric. I would challenge anyone to refute these facts
| about KB905474.
| In closing; many people just won't care;and will say;it's only the bad
| guys who are worried. Ah the times we live in I guess. But I still have a
| choice. And being a lessee of legally obtained MS software; I choose not to
| have KB905474 spying on me. Genuine Advantage Validation tool is one
| thing;it only interacts if I want it to. Genuine Advantage
| Notifications(KB905474) is however; a totally different matter.
|
| Jeff
|
| | > Hi Jeff,
| > Inline:
| >
| > Jeff wrote:
| >> Hi,
| >> To question#1-yes it is creating a database.
| >> Question#2-use search-and type in WGA and it will show you
| >> where they(multiple entries) are.
| >
| > Hmm, guess I should have looked a little harder before asking: Thank you!
| >
| >> Question#3-There are text files associated with WGA;that
| >> not only validate your O.S. but also gather info on
| >> installed programs-even non-MS applications;
| >> Very interesting about this last point; even if WGA is
| >> justifiable; what do 3rd party applications have to do with
| >> validating MS O.S.'s?
| >
| > That's an excellent question. I'm not very crazy about WGA and trying
| > hard to hold my tongue on negatives about it until I learn whether that's
| > a good thing to do or not<g>. I'm still making it ask me every time
| > before I let it call home, and it doesn't seem to matter whether it does
| > or not, which is another interest I have. I do have some monitors I could
| > use to see what it's actually doing but they're so much work to interpret
| > I was hoping to avoid doing that since it's changing every few days it
| > seems.
| > Mostly, at this point, I'm interested in what's taking how long to do
| > what during and immediately after bootups/restarts. So far, unrelated to
| > WGA near as I can tell, I've found 2 thirty-second (30,000 mS, or 30
| > Second) delays in the boot while it's waiting for something to finish
| > starting or to ack itself. Turned out to be services I didn't need anyway.
| > I completely denied WGA for two days while I was doing that
| > investigation and, related or not, the machine started doing things a lot
| > slower, and as soon as I re-allowed it, the speed came back, but not back
| > to where it was. That could easily have been conincidence and something
| > self-healed, but ... I've got too much time on my hands (I WISH!), so ...
| > .
| >
| > Thanks!
| >
| > Pop
| >
| >
| >
| > "POP" <[email protected]>
| >> wrote in message
| >> | >>> Hi,
| >>>
| >>> I find the problems et al with WGA interesting to read,
| >>> and it does appear some people are having problems with
| >>> it. This question is only one of curiousity so far,
| >>> however. My WGA excursions have always been successful so
| >>> technically I'm fine; so far, I think, anyway<g>. My question:
| >>> Is WGA creating a database or something similar on my
| >>> disc? If so, anyone know where it's located and what
| >>> its size is? What's in it and why?
| >>> And at which parts of the boot process is it
| >>> checked? Mostly, I want to see if it's responsible for a noticeable
| >>> slow down in boot times and initial programs-ready-to-run
| >>> times. Yes, I'm aware there are many, many variables that
| >>> determine the timing of various boot time functions, but
| >>> this coincides with the last two WGA installs. Probably
| >>> unrelated, but: Shut down times have also lengthened to
| >>> an easily noticeable degree and Hibernate has extended
| >>> itself to be minutes in duration where it used to be much
| >>> faster. And a comment about downloads: It's irritating to Shut
| >>> Down and discover the installing updates, don't touch
| >>> anything messages interruption to the shut down process. Installations
| >>> need to hold off until the next boot up.
| >>>
| >>> TIA,
| >>> Pop
| >>> --
| >>> I'm broke: Don't even ask!
| >
| >
| >
|
|

 

[Bert Hyman]

In news:[email protected] "Carey Frisch [MVP]"

Any files downloaded and installed from the Microsoft or Windows
Update web site are digitally signed by Microsoft Corporation. I have
yet to see one instance of "spyware" that came with a digitally signed
certificate, have you?

The ordinary definition of spyware would ->seem to cover WGA, don't you
think?

 

[Jeff]

Ah Carey,
good try, however KB905474 DOES utilize most of the characteristics of
"SPYWARE" as defined in that official website itself. Being digitally signed
does not legitimize the facts. Those being: and taken directly from MS
themselves: I will give you the condensed parts if I may:
Deceptive behaviors. Runs processes or programs on the user's computer
without notifying the user and getting the user's consent. Prevents users
from controlling the actions taken by the program while it runs on the
computer. Prevents users from installing or removing the program.

Ah you may try to counter this by saying- Wait! You do know what this is,you
gave consent by downloading it.

Technicalities;easily gotten around;by using MS update and Windows as MS
would like it used-automatically!!

Using the automatic update feature in itself;precludes consent.

Also bundling KB905474 with "high Priority" updates.

Not in itself,out and out wrong;however definitely deceptive

Should I go on?? The methods employed by MS in regards to KB905474 are
EXACTLY what they define as "SPYWARE'. Digitally signed-or not!

And on to the main point of all this.

When did the onus of responsibility shift to the end consumer?;to
CONSTANTLY have to prove that they have a "Genuine" software.

I wonder how people would react; if they had to phone "home" to
Toyota;Ford;GM to "validate" that they owned/leased "Genuine" vehicles
whenever they used said vehicle to go to the store,work,pick up the kids
etc?

So in closing,

No MS spewed rhetoric will change the FACTS about KB905474's purpose or
method of delivery. And you have not even addressed the issue. It's not
about the reason for WGA; which I wholeheartedly agree with. It truly is MS
right to protect it's property. It's the methodology and deception involved
that is at issue. Not to mention that WGA itself collects more data than
needed to validate the O.S. to MS. I wonder what usefulness a persons
motherboard;made by a manufacturer separate from MS is to MS and WGA? Has to
be something-or else that info wouldn't be in WGA logs. Shall I go on?

Good try; but you succeed only in getting people more upset/interested about
what REALLY is going on with WGA.

Jeff