Was: Which drive is clicking.


M

micky

Hi, all.

Background. Please skip to the line of caps if background bores you.

I'm not sure whether to start a new thread, or continue with the old
one. If your news reader is set up like mine and you keep posts for
years tacking on to a post from Nov 8, 2014, will cause the new post to
sort way off the screen. So after posting in the original thread, I
started to fear some people woudln't see it, even if others did. So this
is a new thread. Please chastise me if I should have done something
different.

Quoted below this new text, you'll see most of the details of my
problem, a drive that clicked on startup.

After this thread in early November, I made sure I'd backed up the
partition on each drive I also stopped turning off the computer since
Nov 8 and turned off the option to go into sleep, because it once
clicked coming out of sleep.

I also checked with two methods, one of them Windows Disk Management,
and all partitiions, 2 drives in the computer, and one bare 1.5T drive
in a BlacX caddy, with a backup partition for each of the two partitions
I'm using, are listed as healthy, (still today after the problem got
worse).

And everything has been fine for the last 7+ weeks until AVG said it was
now inactive because I was supposed to restart about 2 weeks ago (to
update AVG) and I didn't.

So yesterday I backed up again, restarted, used it, hibernated, and
today it wouldnt' start!!

HERE IS THE CURRENT SITUATION.

The computer would not start. The Dell XP startup screen showed up and
the computer clicked about 6 times when the progress bar (a series of
green boxes) was 1/4 of the way across, then sometimes 2 times 1/2 of
the way and maybe 6 more times 3/4s of the way. When the progress bar
got to the end, it just stayed there, until a black & white screen came
on with "SATA secondary dfive 0 not found".

In the BIOS, SATA Primary Drive is listed by model number, the word
"auto" and the size of the drive, about 250G.
However the SATA Secondary Drive has Unknown for the model number,
"Auto", and a question mark for the size. It is actually the same model
as the other drive.

I used Hirem's CD and its Mini XP to look at my drives. Using that, I
could look at the file list, edit text files, modify them and save them
on both drives!!!! It's mostly*** only startup that it gets stuck
on.

Boot.ini is on the C: drive, and the default partition was also on the
C: drive, I think. The default line in boot.in said
Default multi (0) disk (0) rdisk (1) partition (2)
I guess it's 2 because there is a hidden win98 partition on that drive,
copied from y previous win98 computer.
The other choice in the list was
multi (0) disk (0) rdisk (0) partition (1)
and I made this the default in C:\boot.ini .

Now , at least once, it booted just fine, and everything works just as
it used to.

I don't understand. It still has to go to the C:Drive to read boot.ini,
but I guess that's the last thing it has to do with the C: drive. Now
boot.ini points to the D: drive, which iiuc is on rdisk0, which must be
okay! But even with the previous default to a partition on rdisk0, the
computer used the Windows directory on the D: partition. How is that
possible????? There is a windows directory on the C: drive,, but none
of the subdirectories ever get new files. (I forget how all this arose
because it's been maybe 8 to 10 years!!)

It's a DELL Dimension 4600, at least 10 years old, but with 4 installed
gigs of memory, it's been working fine. I'm trying to fix up a much
newer one, but always short of time.

This weekend is an example. I should be searching for a surgeon for my
just-diagnosed hyperparathyroidism, but instead I'm doing this.

I turned on the drive caddy, when I was last in the BIOS but the BIOS
didn't recornize it. I should have turned it on BEFORE I opened the
BIOS, right????? If I did that, and made the right partition of the
external drive the first hard drive in the boot order, that would also
have gotten me started, probably, right?

But what would be better, am I right, is to install the 2n'd partition
of the backup drive -- call the drive BBB- -- as the primary SATA drive,
an internal drive, and then back that up to a brand new drive? Rght???

Now the backup drive, BBB, has two other partitions on it, two copies of
the XP partition, one of them from yesterday, and the other older. It
will sitll work as the internal drive, right?

But maybe it's not so good to back up two different partitions to the
same drive, because of the situation I'm in now. Maybe what I shoudl do
is buy one or two more bare drives. The BlacX caddy has two slots and
it says you can copy a partition from a drive in one slot to a drive in
the other.

Any advice will be appreciated.

As it stands now, it seems if the second internal drive fails, I can
just install the backup drive in place of both current internal drives??

***One more thing. It doesn't click anymore since Windows is past
startup, but it pings quite a bit. 2 times, 4 times, 10 imes . It
didn't do that until the last hour yesterday. I'm in the basement and
it sounded like a thin screwdriver striking a water pipe, maybe from the
townhouse next door. When I put my hand on the drives, I don't feel
anything when I hear the noise. This is like clicking, right? It
means the drive is about to fail??
 
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P

philo 

Hi, all.

BacX''



I'm pretty sure you were told at the time to /replace/ the clicking drive.

Yes it's going to fail. Could be today, could be in six months but it
needs to be replaced ....period.
 
J

J. P. Gilliver (John)

In message <[email protected]>, philo  <[email protected]>
writes:
[]
I'm pretty sure you were told at the time to /replace/ the clicking drive.

Yes it's going to fail. Could be today, could be in six months but it
needs to be replaced ....period.

"Daddy knows best, so do what I say"?

He was also told - I think by Paul first - to check the power
distribution. Because, if one of the connectors supplying power to the
drive has gone high(er) resistance: the drive may well click during
spin-up, because it takes a higher surge of current while spinning up,
and if there is higher resistance in the power leads/connectors than
there was when new, the spin-up surge can cause the voltage seen by the
drive's electronics to dip below the point at which it decides it had
better shut down as the power's going off (it then places less load on
the supply so the voltage goes back up again, so it tries to spin up as
if power had just come on, which causes ...)

And if this _is_ the case, replacing the drive with a new one may not
cure the problem. Period.
 
B

~BD~

I'm pretty sure you were told at the time to /replace/ the clicking
drive.

Yes it's going to fail. Could be today, could be in six months but it
needs to be replaced ....period.

"Daddy knows best, so do what I say"?

He was also told - I think by Paul first - to check the power
distribution. Because, if one of the connectors supplying power to the
drive has gone high(er) resistance: the drive may well click during
spin-up, because it takes a higher surge of current while spinning up,
and if there is higher resistance in the power leads/connectors than
there was when new, the spin-up surge can cause the voltage seen by the
drive's electronics to dip below the point at which it decides it had
better shut down as the power's going off (it then places less load on
the supply so the voltage goes back up again, so it tries to spin up as
if power had just come on, which causes ...)

And if this _is_ the case, replacing the drive with a new one may not
cure the problem. Period.[/QUOTE]

Before I'm tempted to be equally rude to YOU, Mr Gilliver, do you also
have around forty years of computer repair experience under your belt
like Philo?

You may be professionally qualified too - but most folk reading here
will be unaware of that.

Please clarify.
 
P

philo 

In message <[email protected]>, philo <[email protected]>
writes:
[]
I'm pretty sure you were told at the time to /replace/ the clicking
drive.

Yes it's going to fail. Could be today, could be in six months but it
needs to be replaced ....period.

"Daddy knows best, so do what I say"?

He was also told - I think by Paul first - to check the power
distribution. Because, if one of the connectors supplying power to the
drive has gone high(er) resistance: the drive may well click during
spin-up, because it takes a higher surge of current while spinning up,
and if there is higher resistance in the power leads/connectors than
there was when new, the spin-up surge can cause the voltage seen by the
drive's electronics to dip below the point at which it decides it had
better shut down as the power's going off (it then places less load on
the supply so the voltage goes back up again, so it tries to spin up as
if power had just come on, which causes ...)

And if this _is_ the case, replacing the drive with a new one may not
cure the problem. Period.

Before I'm tempted to be equally rude to YOU, Mr Gilliver, do you also
have around forty years of computer repair experience under your belt
like Philo?

You may be professionally qualified too - but most folk reading here
will be unaware of that.

Please clarify.



Thanks BD but "John" probably does not know what was discussed on the
other newsgroup.


That said...though "Paul" is one of the best advisors on all of Usenet...
from what was discussed on the other group, it appears to be "face
value" ...a bad drive.
 
B

~BD~

In message <[email protected]>, philo <[email protected]>
writes:
[]
I'm pretty sure you were told at the time to /replace/ the clicking
drive.

Yes it's going to fail. Could be today, could be in six months but it
needs to be replaced ....period.

"Daddy knows best, so do what I say"?

He was also told - I think by Paul first - to check the power
distribution. Because, if one of the connectors supplying power to the
drive has gone high(er) resistance: the drive may well click during
spin-up, because it takes a higher surge of current while spinning up,
and if there is higher resistance in the power leads/connectors than
there was when new, the spin-up surge can cause the voltage seen by the
drive's electronics to dip below the point at which it decides it had
better shut down as the power's going off (it then places less load on
the supply so the voltage goes back up again, so it tries to spin up as
if power had just come on, which causes ...)

And if this _is_ the case, replacing the drive with a new one may not
cure the problem. Period.

Before I'm tempted to be equally rude to YOU, Mr Gilliver, do you also
have around forty years of computer repair experience under your belt
like Philo?

You may be professionally qualified too - but most folk reading here
will be unaware of that.

Please clarify.



Thanks BD but "John" probably does not know what was discussed on the
other newsgroup.

YW! :) (but there was no need whatsoever for the snide comment!)

Would you care to make comment with regard to the scenario painted by
"John"? Is he right?
That said...though "Paul" is one of the best advisors on all of Usenet...
from what was discussed on the other group, it appears to be "face
value" ...a bad drive.

*Paul* does, indeed, appear to 'know his stuff'! It's good to see that
he's now apparently one of the team of experts at the
'annexcafe.general.user2user' newsgroup. Have you yourself ever
considered becoming part of the Annex team. Philo?

BD
 
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P

philo 

YW! :) (but there was no need whatsoever for the snide comment!)

Would you care to make comment with regard to the scenario painted by
"John"? Is he right?


*Paul* does, indeed, appear to 'know his stuff'! It's good to see that
he's now apparently one of the team of experts at the
'annexcafe.general.user2user' newsgroup. Have you yourself ever
considered becoming part of the Annex team. Philo?

BD



As you might know about me, I'm a veteran of the Chicago "Poetry Slam"
scene. ** NO ONE ** on all of Usenet is capable of hurling an insult
with even 1% of the force of a Chicago audience...
so if someone one Usenet attempts an insult of any type...there's a 99%
chance it won't register. If John lobbed an insult at me, I missed it.

Now...back to the hard drive clicking...with /one/ exception ...in all
the machine's I've repaired with a clicking hard drive, the problem was
due to the drive being defective.


The single exception was when I tried to use a laptop hard drive in a
USB enclosure specifically designed for /internal/ drives. It was not
able to supply sufficient current and the drive did indeed click...and
more importantly it was /not/ detected by the OS.


Since the OP's drive is readable, the chance of it being a poor power
connection is vanishingly small.


On the other newsgroup I gave specifics as to what the OP should do...
and since he ignored my advice and similar advice given by other's I am
not going to waste any more time here.
 
P

Paul

~BD~ said:
*Paul*...
he's now apparently one of the team of experts at the
'annexcafe.general.user2user' newsgroup.
BD

Not this Paul.

I don't do web forums, of any sort or description.

The reason I don't do anything with web forums, is they
can be easily deleted. That happened to the Matrox video
card forum, as well as the VIA forum getting all messed up.
Other forums frequently renumber messages and lose stuff,
or they update the bulletin board software, with some story
that you cannot import old content into it. It's just
a crock.

And everything I know, I read it on the Internet...

Only a fool would waste their time in a forum. Because
someone else owns the content, and can delete it at any time.

Paul
 
B

~BD~

Not this Paul.

I don't do web forums, of any sort or description.

The reason I don't do anything with web forums, is they
can be easily deleted. That happened to the Matrox video
card forum, as well as the VIA forum getting all messed up.
Other forums frequently renumber messages and lose stuff,
or they update the bulletin board software, with some story
that you cannot import old content into it. It's just
a crock.

And everything I know, I read it on the Internet...

Only a fool would waste their time in a forum. Because
someone else owns the content, and can delete it at any time.

Paul

That's the best news I've had all day!

Thank you, Usenet Paul! :)
 
B

~BD~

As you might know about me, I'm a veteran of the Chicago "Poetry Slam"
scene. ** NO ONE ** on all of Usenet is capable of hurling an insult
with even 1% of the force of a Chicago audience...
so if someone one Usenet attempts an insult of any type...there's a 99%
chance it won't register. If John lobbed an insult at me, I missed it.

No worries, Philo - I'm happy to watch your back! ;-)
Now...back to the hard drive clicking...with /one/ exception ...in all
the machine's I've repaired with a clicking hard drive, the problem was
due to the drive being defective.


The single exception was when I tried to use a laptop hard drive in a
USB enclosure specifically designed for /internal/ drives. It was not
able to supply sufficient current and the drive did indeed click...and
more importantly it was /not/ detected by the OS.


Since the OP's drive is readable, the chance of it being a poor power
connection is vanishingly small.


On the other newsgroup I gave specifics as to what the OP should do...
and since he ignored my advice and similar advice given by other's I am
not going to waste any more time here.

Your further comments are appreciated.

Thanks. :)
 
P

Paul

On 04/01/2015 19:28, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message <[email protected]>, philo <[email protected]>
writes:
[]
I'm pretty sure you were told at the time to /replace/ the clicking
drive.

Yes it's going to fail. Could be today, could be in six months but it
needs to be replaced ....period.
"Daddy knows best, so do what I say"?

He was also told - I think by Paul first - to check the power
distribution. Because, if one of the connectors supplying power to the
drive has gone high(er) resistance: the drive may well click during
spin-up, because it takes a higher surge of current while spinning up,
and if there is higher resistance in the power leads/connectors than
there was when new, the spin-up surge can cause the voltage seen by the
drive's electronics to dip below the point at which it decides it had
better shut down as the power's going off (it then places less load on
the supply so the voltage goes back up again, so it tries to spin up as
if power had just come on, which causes ...)

And if this _is_ the case, replacing the drive with a new one may not
cure the problem. Period.
Before I'm tempted to be equally rude to YOU, Mr Gilliver, do you also
have around forty years of computer repair experience under your belt
like Philo?

You may be professionally qualified too - but most folk reading here
will be unaware of that.

Please clarify.


Thanks BD but "John" probably does not know what was discussed on the
other newsgroup.


That said...though "Paul" is one of the best advisors on all of Usenet...
from what was discussed on the other group, it appears to be "face
value" ...a bad drive.

The last 2 "clickers" I had turned out to be a head crash, once I
opened them up for a look.
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/disk platter.jpg

That's one weird wear pattern.

Almost looks like the head was completely ground off.
For the wear to take up so much area.

Paul
 
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M

micky

In message <[email protected]>, philo  <[email protected]>
writes:
[]
I'm pretty sure you were told at the time to /replace/ the clicking drive.

Yes it's going to fail. Could be today, could be in six months but it
needs to be replaced ....period.

"Daddy knows best, so do what I say"?

He was also told - I think by Paul first - to check the power
distribution. Because, if one of the connectors supplying power to the
drive has gone high(er) resistance: the drive may well click during
spin-up, because it takes a higher surge of current while spinning up,
and if there is higher resistance in the power leads/connectors than
there was when new, the spin-up surge can cause the voltage seen by the
drive's electronics to dip below the point at which it decides it had
better shut down as the power's going off (it then places less load on
the supply so the voltage goes back up again, so it tries to spin up as
if power had just come on, which causes ...)

And if this _is_ the case, replacing the drive with a new one may not
cure the problem. Period.

Thanks to both of you. When I have more time, I will try to find
excuses for why I forgot most of this stuff. Particularly busy now.
 
B

~BD~

I started working on 1311s in 1965. That was a disk drive the size of
a washing machine that held 2 meg on a disk pack and leaked oil on the
floor. (hydraulic head actuator)

Wow! Did you remain working with computers until you retired?
This is a clock I made using the various platter sizes. The big one is
14" the industry standard for a several decades, the next one is 8"
from a 62PC drive (62 meg) then a 5.25", 3.5" and 2.5" from the
various PC type drives

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/clock.jpg

That is fantastic! :) Probably unique too! Have you ever considered
that it might now be quite valuable?

I did once make an ashtray from the base of a 4.5 inch shell case when
on board a destroyer in the Mediterranean - THAT was in 1965 too! I
don't have a photograph, but it looked very much like this:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WORLD-WAR...OWITZER-SHELL-CASING-DATED-1918-/121532683725
 
J

J. P. Gilliver (John)

~BD~ said:
I'm pretty sure you were told at the time to /replace/ the clicking
drive.

Yes it's going to fail. Could be today, could be in six months but it
needs to be replaced ....period.
[power chain connectors gone high resistance]
And if this _is_ the case, replacing the drive with a new one may not
cure the problem. Period.

Before I'm tempted to be equally rude to YOU, Mr Gilliver, do you also[/QUOTE]

Sorry, when someone uses ". Period." it bugs me, as it implies no
acceptance of any argument whatsoever. That appeared rude to me, though
I wouldn't have put it as strongly as that. I only used ". Period." in
response (-:

I agree: clicking _almost_ always means a dud drive. _However_, for the
trivial exercise of checking the connectors, I thought I'd save what I
thought was the OP the cost of replacing a drive needlessly. (I gather
from some posts here that there is information in other posts which
didn't appear here that makes that even more unlikely to be the case in
this particular case.)
have around forty years of computer repair experience under your belt
like Philo?

Well, the first computer I actually owned (and built, with a soldering
iron) had 1K of memory (_including_ the ½K screen memory! [a Tangerine
if anyone else here remembers those]), and I _learnt_ on a 7-bit serial
processor with a memory of 16 (not 16K, 16!) [BRENDA], but no, not 40
years. But I have been "doing" PCs for some while. (And, for what it's
worth, I've never come across one with the high-resistance power
connectors that Paul described. But I still think it was worth
mentioning as a possibility.)
You may be professionally qualified too - but most folk reading here
will be unaware of that.

Please clarify.

In electronics, but not specifically computer repair, no.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If mankind minus one were of one opinion, then mankind is no more justified in
silencing the one than the one - if he had the power - would be justified in
silencing mankind. -John Stuart Mill, philosopher and economist (1806-1873)
 
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B

~BD~

~BD~ said:
In message <[email protected]>, philo <[email protected]>
writes:
[]
I'm pretty sure you were told at the time to /replace/ the clicking
drive.

Yes it's going to fail. Could be today, could be in six months but it
needs to be replaced ....period. [power chain connectors gone high resistance]
And if this _is_ the case, replacing the drive with a new one may not
cure the problem. Period.

Before I'm tempted to be equally rude to YOU, Mr Gilliver, do you also

Sorry, when someone uses ". Period." it bugs me, as it implies no
acceptance of any argument whatsoever. That appeared rude to me, though
I wouldn't have put it as strongly as that. I only used ". Period." in
response (-:

I agree: clicking _almost_ always means a dud drive. _However_, for the
trivial exercise of checking the connectors, I thought I'd save what I
thought was the OP the cost of replacing a drive needlessly. (I gather
from some posts here that there is information in other posts which
didn't appear here that makes that even more unlikely to be the case in
this particular case.)
have around forty years of computer repair experience under your belt
like Philo?

Well, the first computer I actually owned (and built, with a soldering
iron) had 1K of memory (_including_ the ½K screen memory! [a Tangerine
if anyone else here remembers those]), and I _learnt_ on a 7-bit serial
processor with a memory of 16 (not 16K, 16!) [BRENDA], but no, not 40
years. But I have been "doing" PCs for some while. (And, for what it's
worth, I've never come across one with the high-resistance power
connectors that Paul described. But I still think it was worth
mentioning as a possibility.)
You may be professionally qualified too - but most folk reading here
will be unaware of that.

Please clarify.

In electronics, but not specifically computer repair, no.

I had a sixth-sense that you were, indeed, trying to be helpful rather
than be antagonistic! Thank you so much for such an honest and
comprehensive response, John.

There is a vast amount of experience in this particular group and I
shall now pay particular attention to any advice which you may give in
future. :)
 

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