Vista? A flop??

  • Thread starter Thread starter kenny
  • Start date Start date
kenny said:
Just tried the latest beta... its trash! They made so many changes in
the GUI with no apparent reason.. seems they just had to change
things so they could say that vista is different.. but the changes
only made it harder to use... At least they could have an option to
revert to the old way of doing things...

its horrible!

I hope they fix up their act or their sales will go down the drain
when vista comes out.

Oh and the messenger live beta? Another bloated peice of trash...

What are those programmers thinking???

Perhaps staying with XP is not such a bad idea after all......

If you got to learn something different then you might as well learn
Linux.

MS hates its customers so much that MS is doing whatever it can to get
rid of them.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"
 
I posted on the beta newsgroups... don't worry.. I told them the same
things..
but with a bit politer manner.. I don't want to hurt their feelings or
discourage them

:-)
 
Your generalizations are all but worthless and show you only as a Vista
basher whether that is what you intended or not.

If you have access to the Beta newsgroups, post specifics and bugs there.
Your generalizations reflect on you instead of whatever product you comment.

Your comments about the interface are about the same as when Windows XP was
released.
Without the details you do not post, you make yourself look unwilling or
unable to try to learn something new.

As for "I expect only perfection."
That is a ridiculous and unachievable standard for any product.
 
My attitude may seem like I am a vista basher to you, but in reality you are
mistaken.
In any case, Im BAD, Im BAD, and if you dont like it you can slap my face!

My personal comments were not like these when XP was released. XP was a
great improvement on clarity of use.
I did not beta test XP when it was called whistler.. so I cannot know what I
could have said.

I am talking about me here, don't confuse me with the mainstream, because I
can assure you that I am far from that.
I did post on the beta newsgroups but not about specific bugs. I dont care
about small bugs, but about the over all ease of use or "User Experience".

I always learn new things and I can adjust in a blink of an eye.
It is NOT me I am worried about, but everyone else! I teach and support many
people, and I know how it is. I am viewing things
from their standpoint. Not mine.
Even if perfection is unachievable you never think that it is not, or else
you do not strive for it.
In the future.... we will have computers that can think and interact with
humans, do tasks by thought alone...
Dont be confined to what you see around you now. I see this only as a
stepping stone.

I would say that you are negative, because you don't like people criticizing
your favorite product.
Well you have to be open-minded enough to hear what other people have to
say...

I like windows, I love windows.... because one of its strong points was that
it was easy to use.
Take that away.. and you end up with linux-like confusion!
 
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:02:53 -0600, "Carey Frisch [MVP]"
If you are an authorized Vista beta tester, then you
should be posting your comments in the appropriate
Vista beta newsgroup.
FYI: Beta means a work in progress....not a finished product.

OTOH, if the UI sucks rocks, then it's good if that is widely
highlighted before it is cast in stone - and by "widely", I mean
outside the beta group niche.

I don't like gratuitous UI changes, because it creates massive hassles
for support... "click A, click B, type C, press D, click E. Oh - what
version of Windows is it? <looong side-track on 'how do i know what
windows version i am using?'> Oh, OK; click X, click Y, then click Z,
type C, press M, click N"

I think by now, there are few folks left on the planet who...
- have never used a PC before
- know no-one else who has used a PC before
- have no recourse to PC books, mags, web sites etc.
....and therefore "the new UI is easier" claim is spurious. In almost
every case, a new user will be surrounded by folks, books, mags and
web sites that are familiarwith or written for existing Windows UI.
Having to disregard this info and squint at F1 is not "easier".

I also hate gratuitous waste of screen space. Screen space is a
limited performance resource, just as are memory and CPU cycles. You
wouldn't write code that wastes CPU cycles or hogs RAM; why write a UI
that wastes screen space?

RAM and CPU limit system efficiency, and screen area limits user
efficiency, which the UI is supposed to facilitate.


The most serious UI issue IMO is the loss of List View, which is the
most efficient way to see a large number of files in a given window
(Hint: We have MUCH more than 5 files in each directory, something
that NTFS was engineered to support).

Using one of the dummy icon views with small icons is NOT a solution,
because this fills across then down, making it hard to eye-browse, and
because it tracks (x,y) icon positions (can you say, "registry bloat"
and "slow display"?). Details shows only one column of files, no
matter how few information columns you leave in place, so that is
useless as a replacement for List.


Beyond UI is the risk posed by indexers and folder view file type
handlers that grope the insides of file contents when you are doing
nothing at all, and when you "view a list of files", respectively.

The lessons of GDIPlus, WMF etc. should clarify why groping hidden
file content ahead of any user intention to do so is a Bad Idea.

So I want a "Safe List View" that disables all such content groping,
even to the point of not pulling icons out of file contents. In this
mode, all file name extension would be shown (yes, including .PIF
etc.). This virew would be the default in Safe Mode, when new disks
and HD volumes are encountered, and could be assigned to high-risk
subtrees where new material arrives from "outside".

-- Risk Management is the clue that asks:
"Why do I keep open buckets of petrol next to all the
ashtrays in the lounge, when I don't even have a car?"
 
I very much agree on the loss of "List". That's something I make use
of quite a bit and can't understand the logic behind dropping it. I would
think there must be some concessions to the "Old Ways", even in a new
OS. Things that are comfortable and convenient, shouldn't be cast off
for "A better/Newer Way" of doing things.
**You do post some very insightful things.
 
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:14:51 -0500, "Richard Urban"
But you're right. Vista IS a flop. I wish that they had gone back to the
drawing board and developed a totally new operating system, one that has no
support for legacy software built into it. Then, and maybe only then, will
we be able to get a secure operating system.

You wouldn't - there's too much missing safety clue. They'd code a
brand new platform full of safety failures, and the pain would start
all over again. As it is, I predict that most Vista exploits and
safety failures will involve new version 1.0 functionalities.
It's the backward compatibility that is hurting us so much. Code that has
been around since Windows 3.1 is now being exploited.

Only because that code was never reviewed and ripped out the moment
the risks were obvious and predictable.

In 1995, Windows 95 shipped with the ability to connect to the
Internet built in. MS were already thumping thge tub for MS Office
data file formats to be used as a de facto "rich" communications
standard, so it was surely anticipated that these would be exchanged.

Viruses were also common enough for the antivirus industry tio develop
in the DOS era, so the will to attack systems was already manifest.

So why on earth did MS auto-run macros in MS Office "data files"?

Needless to say, this opportunity was promptly exploited from 1995
onwards, starting with Concept. MS's response to Concept was to
studiously avoid calling it a "virus", using the term "prank macro"
instead, and a similarlack of vision was shown in the technical
response, which was a tool specifically designed to remove Concept (as
if no other macro malware would ever be written).

In 1995, WMF was carried forward with the BY DESIGN capability of
automatically calling code within the raw "data file". You'd think
that the Concept debale would have had this ripped out for Win95 SP1,
along with killing off auto-macros in "data" files, and tightening
file types so that macros in .RTF and WMF in .JPG would no longer be
run in an inappropriate manner when "opened".

By the time XP came out, it wasobvious that folks needed to predict
the risk level of files they wre about to "open". XP created a whole
new UI - so did MS take this opportunity to kill off the "open"
concept and show risk levels in plain English? Nope; they STILL hide
file associations by default and act on hidden info when "opening"
files, so the user has no assurance that the expected risk level will
not be escalated - an SE opportunity malware thrives on.

So no, I have zero confidence that "starting from scratch" would mean
a safer OS (and without safety, security is near-meaningless).

Lessons like WMF and GDIPlus are being ignored right now in the brand
new stuff being added to Vista, such as search/indexing that gropes
file contents, as does the process of listing files. Vista duhfaults
to acting on hidden info rather than file name .ext when "opening"
files, and extensions are still hidden by duhfault.

Perhaps we can't get real-world experience with these things outside
of the beta period, but we can get a wider range of discussion if
htese issues are raised in wider forums such as this one?
It's too bad that people like you would have to learn from scratch - but I'm
sure that you would prevail.

It's MS that needs to learn from scratch, and isn't good at it. MS is
very good at learning from real-world experience, but with brand new
functionalities, there IS no such experience - only vague predictions
of doom, based on theoretical risks. That's why it's better if MS
works incrimentally, as they did with SP2, rather than try to
re-invent everything, as they tend to do in Vista.
Hey! Apple did it a few years back. And in doing so they trashed almost
every program that people owned. Most would not function on the new
operating system at all. And people learned and survived.

Starting from scratch killed Netscape. It's not a trivial thing, and
the time to do it is when porting to 64-bit platforms. That could
correspond to a brand new 64-bit-only Vista 1.1


---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Don't pay malware vendors - boycott Sony
 
At last some people who are logical!

I did point out many of the things you say on the Vista beta groups...
and more....

I agree wth Rctfreak and R.McCarty in everything they say...

Let me point out that I have no complain about the things they are going
under the hood. I am conserned only about the GUI usability and the "user
experience".
 
Great points.. I have posted many similar things on the vista beta
newsgroups that
are in charge of AERO.

The excuse is that now with LCD monitors you have higher resolutions
therefore more screen space. Yes but why waste it?? Also there is another
factor. Too much information on every screen makes you dizzy! Its like
putting a car driver in the seat of a pilot of a 747 with hundreds of
indications. They will be overwhelmed. They seem to be making things harder
for no real benefit. I am sure that they should open up the beta to more
people and start listening! You are totaly right!

Again I am not conserned about me, but about the novice user. As a teacher
of technology, and a person who supports many peoples tech problems I know
how hard it is for them to do things others regaurd as simple.

As I told the beta newsgroup a simple example.. imagine a tech giving
support.. he used to say "press start > all programs bla bla bla"

On vista he will have to say "press that little round button like an orb
with a thing that looks like a flag"

I cant imagine how a person would guide someone in the new windows
explorer...
its chaos or in other words, bad design!

By the way I have solved the screen area problem by installing 3 screens on
my workstation and 2 on my entertainment computer :-)
 
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:46:54 -0500, "Steve Shattuck"

The GUI is not fixed in stone yet, so what you see may well improve by
the time it ships - which is why you need to be heard NOW, before they
say "oh, the feature set is fixed; we will only fix bugs now".
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I don't know what's more pathetic,
you thinking that your single opinion of a beta (better known as a work in
progress) is of any interest to the newsgroup, or that someone who obviously
has not legally obtained a copy of the beta would have any credibility with
anyone. If I went back to messages when XP was just foing into beta, I'm
sure I could have found many of the same comments from other little minds.

I don't find either to be pathetic.

Yes, I think Windows users DO have a stake in Vista, given that sooner
or later it will be force-fed to us unlesswe change platforms. So I
think a thread on Vista would be of interest here, especially as it is
clearly labeled Vista in the subject line so it's easily ignored.

It's presumptuous of you to assume the poster obtained Vista
illegally, or that posting to this news group implies a lack of
knowledge of (or ability to post to) the Vista newsgroups. If the
poster has something of interest to say, I'm not going to disregard it
because he "obtained Vista illegally". Imagine...

"Hey, this dude's found an exploitable defect in RPC in XP Beta!"
' Really? That sounds serious! '
"Oh... no wait, he's not a legal user. Disregard this call."
Look how much influence they had on the success of XP.

Hmm, not enough, perhaps. Look at the Win9x newsgroups, full of fans
of a less stable 5-year-old OS that can barely run on modern hardware.
Why are they so resistant to XP? What is it about XP they don't like?
Could it be some of those things are what XP users are complaining
about in the XP newsgroups?

When you get the results you intend, then maybe you can afford to be a
bit arrogant - but this isn't the case with XP. XP was supposed to be
the "most secure Windows ever", and yet it set new lows in
exploitability, being the firrst consumer OS that could be attacked
within minutes simply by being connected to the Internet (RPC, LSASS).
Maintenance has degenerated from installing the occasional IE/OE
safety roll-up to having to install patches every month.

Yes, there's more work going into security and patching, the patch
delivery infrastructure's becoming really good, and the exploits are
getting harder to counter. But when more effort does not translate
into better results, it's time to step back and ask yourself whether
we really have the fundamentals right.

As it is, the bad guys not only stay one step ahead, but are
red-shifting away from us at an alarming rate.
Not to suggest that you don't have the right to post your opinion, but in
the future you might want to keep comments like "its horrible!" and "I hope
they fix up their act or their sales will go down the drain when vista comes
out." to yourself. As someone once noted, "Better to sit quietly and have
people think you are a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

I'd see this in a different way. Please, don't be silent, but do be
more detailed in your comments! It's not enough to say "this sucks",
you have to get specific about what sucks, in what particular way does
it suck, why TSM (This Stuff Matters) and how you would do it
differently so that it would suck less.

The Vista Beta process is very effective for submitting this sort of
detail to MS, as well as discussing it with other beta testers. You
obviously have stong misgivings about what you see in Vista; you need
to get into the beta program and pull your weight there, because this
is the time to fix these things before they ship (and thus become
another "legacy compatibility" millstone).

If you are already doing this, then you can ward off the flames by
mentioning this at the start of your post.


-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Tip Of The Day:
To disable the 'Tip of the Day' feature...
 
Great stuff on your post...

I am sending comments to the vista beta group.. Of course far more politeley
than this post! lol..
Only if lots of people get involved with the beta will there be great
results. And I am taking about the common users, not the tech specialists.
You have to ask a simple user who doesnt know much about computers what
seems simpler to him/her.

Indeed this post belongs here for THAT exact reason. XP users should know
and have a say about what is going on on vista development! As you said..
some people must speak up before its too late.

kenny
 
The excuse is that now with LCD monitors you have higher resolutions
therefore more screen space. Yes but why waste it??

Exactly! People want big screens for one or both reasons:
- they can't see, so need things big at standard res
- they use hi-res to see more stuff at once

If a Word document hogs the whole screen at 640 x 480, the idea of
going to 1024 x 768 is to NOT have it hog the whole screen, duh.

Actually, you know something? Resolutions are NOT getting higher, as
you'd expect. When 17" were costly, they'd also go up to 1600x1200;
today's standard 17" max at around 1024x768, just like the old 14" did
(though mercifully not limited to 60Hz). LCDs are hard-wired to quite
modest resolutions, too; 1024x768 again, with 17" LCDs costing as much
as 1600x1200 19" CRTs but delivering only 1280x1024.

If you want 1600x1200 today, it's still going to cost a bomb.
Also there is another factor. Too much information on every
screen makes you dizzy!

MS rarely give you "too much information on screen" - that's more of a
geek / Linux / shareware thing :-)

MS typically don't give you the info you need (e.g. hiding files,
paths, extensions so you have no idea what's going on).

More to the point, there's this silly idea that things are "easier" if
you make everything big, like for a two-year old... it's like...

"tjuutpp y'qqvada vada pkl?"

' I'm sorry, I don't understand Klingon '

"o sloog; TJUUTPP Y'QQVADA VADA PKL?"

Then there's the silly idea that ppl look AT the GUI, rather than
attempt to work THROUGH it. That's only true for the first few hours,
and the joys are easily outweighed by the "WTF?" factor...

"This dialog box is dead - it doesn't do anything when I click it."

' Erm yes... beautiful plumage though, innit? '

Things I really hate:

1) The assumption that you loooove scroll bars

You know the drill; there are always 10 items, but the dialog box is
fixed in size and shows only 8 without scrolling,

Worse is the same thing, but with horizontal scrollbars that show...

| EPSON Color Stylus 800 for Windo | (ws 2003 1.11 English)
| EPSON Color Stylus 800 for Windo | (ws XP beta 0.95 do not use)
| EPSON Color Stylus 800 for Windo | (ws XP 1.11 Slovakian)
| EPSON Color Stylus 800 for Windo | (ws XP 1.11 English)
| EPSON Color Stylus 800 for Windo | (ws 2000 1.11 English)

2) The assumption you have only a dozen items

It gets worse still, when there's an unbounded item set, because it
seems as if MS doesn't test with real-world item collections. Every
GUI demo I've seen always has a handful of files in a folder view;
never, say, a couple of thousand in System32 or something.

3) Fixed size dialogs with unbounded item sets

Forget the new Vista UI feature set, I'm still waiting for MS to
embrace the Windows 3.1 feature set, like "resizable dialogs" and
"remember user-selected size". I'd MUCH rather have the GUI remember
dialog box sizes than the (x,y) position of big dummy icons throughout
the Explorer namespace - a much better use of registry space, IMO.

4) Gratuitous waste of screen space

You know what I mean; one word of redundant static text on the left
just has to be in a big font, with a horizontal band of wasted space
stretching right accross the dialog box - or huge slabs of flat
do-nothing UI 3D grey above and below a tiny mailbox slot through
which you are supposed to scroll through hundreds of items.
Its like putting a car driver in the seat of a pilot of a 747 with
hundreds of indications. They will be overwhelmed.

I think MS layers info quite well - sometimes a bit too well, formy
taste (e.g. where you have to bang a menu twice to see anything other
than the things you used recently). The Alt-menu, toolbar, Ctl-hotkey
approach was one of the best things that came out of Windows 3.1-era
usability testing. But WYSIWYG needs to do more than let you do
stuff; it should indicate risk level, and the system should never
"paint outside the lines" of the info that was shown to you.

This is more than just not showing you an .EXE file as if it were a
ReadMe.txt - it applies to all cases of "type drift", even between
types that are ostensibly similar in risk level.

For example, a JPG and GIF may be intended to be equally-safe data
standards, but the discovery of an exploit can escalate the risk of
one of these way up to that of raw code. So if it's called .JPG but
is internally GIF, I don't want the system to "open" it; at the very
least, I want an alert dialog, and I'd be quite happy if it refused to
"open" it until I'd renamed it properly.

An informed user is a *blameable* user ;-)
They seem to be making things harder for no real benefit.

Different = harder, even if it's supposed to be easier.

If you're used to a routine of...
- take off kettle lid
- hold under tap
- open tap
- close tap when filled
....then it may be "easier" to go...
- take off kettle lid
- hold under tap
- walk away when filled
....due to tap automation - but ingrained habits are such that it would
most likely create cognitive dissonance (forcing me to think about
what I normally do not have to think about) and be annoying.

If I have to wait while the tap does a little "TA-DAA!" twirl before
the water starts pouring out - taking longer than if I'd did the
operation manually - then you'd BET I'd be annoyed.

If the tap sometimes pours petrol instead of water, and out of the
wrong tap so it splatters my smoking jacket, then I'd be beyond
annoyed; I'd start to get angry and/or fearful.

That's why safety WYSIWYG is so important.
Again I am not conserned about me, but about the novice user.

Novice users don't stay novice users, so there's no point in making
the whole world revolve around them. Who is more likely to buy
product on an ongoing basis, the user who builds skills and becomes
more productive, or the one who learns nothing because they hardly use
the computer at all? This is not "What is a Computer?" 1983 anymore.
As a teacher of technology, and a person who supports many
peoples tech problems I know how hard it is for them to do
things others regaurd as simple.

The first 10% you learn takes 90% of the effort - and if you waste
that effort on crap sware you end up having to walk away from, then
that becomes another source of anger and resentment.

That's why I get fed up with constant UI pressure to push MS's bundled
apps in your face, so you start using them first - whether it's
DRM-ridden Windows Media Pimp or what-data-do-you-want-eaten-today
Outlook Express. Ever wondered why OE's top-of-the-UI icons are
always set as Read-Only, and why every obligatory bugfix IE/OE upgrade
foists these icons on all over again?
As I told the beta newsgroup a simple example.. imagine a tech giving
support.. he used to say "press start > all programs bla bla bla"
On vista he will have to say "press that little round button like an orb
with a thing that looks like a flag"

What you're hilighting here, is the need for a consistent mouseless
UI. Generally, MS is pretty good at this - try using AdAware or
Spybot without a mouse, or anything written for or ported from Apple!
I cant imagine how a person would guide someone in the new windows
explorer... its chaos or in other words, bad design!

MS are very aware of the tension between beauty and usability, and
normally I'm firmly on the side of usability, but when the UI team
showcased some of the "concept car" UIs they were playing with, their
joy in what they were doing was kinda infectious. They, too, were
aware of usability concerns, but there always seem to be blind spots.

If I had to address this, I'd say "don't bother to demo me a shell UI
with anything less than 10 000 files in a folder, preferably with a
balanced mix of .ZIP, .EXE, .JPG etc. to stress the metadata gropers".

Perhaps the best approach would be a skinnable GUI (shades of X?) so
that test GUIs can be tested on working systems (ha!). You need to do
more than walk a mile in new shoes, once; you need to wear them
non-stop through a months' work.

The other cool GUI idea would be smarter theme controls, based around
usability approaches. For instance, instead of hand-tweaking 20
different font, icon, window frame etc. sizes, how about "optimize for
content", "optimise for appearance", "optimise for legability" etc.?
By the way I have solved the screen area problem by installing 3 screens on
my workstation and 2 on my entertainment computer :-)

I still do a lot of work on 14", because folks bring in just the box
and I can't afford to have 7 x 17" lying around. My prime seat is a
new 1024x768 17"; it can't touch 1600x1200, and flickers at 60Hz if I
do 1280x1024. There are a few oddball resolutions between 1024x768
and 1280x1024, but more often than not the aspect ratios get wierd
and/or the geometry has to be heavily tweaked.


---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Don't pay malware vendors - boycott Sony
 
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:41:10 -0700, "Jupiter Jones [MVP]"
Your generalizations are all but worthless and show you only as a Vista
basher whether that is what you intended or not.

I have to agree with JJ here; I'm still waiting to see some "feature X
does this which is bad because Y, it should do Z"

IOW - less heat, more light please :-)
Your comments about the interface are about the same as when Windows
XP was released. Without the details you do not post, you make yourself
look unwilling or unable to try to learn something new.

Hey, that prompts an idea: Let's have a poll on which UI features new
to XP vs. Win98 users have adopted and enjoy, vs. those they turn off?

Do feel free to extend this list...
- personalized Start Menu
- Common Tasks
- new "summary" Start Menu UI
- per-user vs. AllUsers UI locations
- fading ToolTips
- thumbnails
- built-in Zip-as-folder support
- colors for CLI (command prompt) windows
- built-in "DOSKey" CLI command rollback
- back-scrollable CLI history
- the "Search Dog"
- ad-hoc alternate actions via Open With
- fast user switching
- Disk Cleanup
- clear all but last System Restore point
- Recovery Console
- hide inactive SysTray icons
- SP2 Security Center
- Automatic Update vs. the Windows Update site
- Remote Assistance/Desktop
- Program Compatibiliy Wizard
- FAST Wizard
- Set Program Access and Defaults
- the Welcome Screen after screen saver


---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Don't pay malware vendors - boycott Sony
 
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:15:18 -0500, "kurttrail"
If you got to learn something different then you might as well learn
Linux.

Actually, that's a good point - especially if Mac roll out cheaper
systems at that time, or finally puts their money where their mouth is
and opens up the hardware as a standard that others can manufacture
for, or REALLY takes the plunge and ports MacOS to PCs!

In trhe Win9x days, I used to joke that if I had 3 months off, I'd
learn NT, if I had 6 months off, I'd learn NT Server, and if I had a
year off, I'd learn Linux. So when XP came out, it was a point where
I re-examined whether I wanted to stay with Windows, migrate to Linux,
or sniff at Apple. If generic MacOS computers were around, I might
have been tempted, especially in the light of Product Activation
bloody-mindedness - but given a choice between a large OS monopoly and
a tin-pot hardware-and-OS dictatorship, I'd choose Windows.

Linux is still too tough to casually embrace - not because of the GUI,
but because so many concepts, terms and approaches are different.
What was the HD called again? What's the equivalent of Ctl+Alt+Del's
Task Manager? It's like learning Latin, where you have a fistfull of
nouns and verbs but none of the "glue" words.


---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
Don't pay malware vendors - boycott Sony
 
cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) said:
Exactly! People want big screens for one or both reasons:
- they can't see, so need things big at standard res
- they use hi-res to see more stuff at once

If a Word document hogs the whole screen at 640 x 480, the idea of
going to 1024 x 768 is to NOT have it hog the whole screen, duh.

There's another problem with higher resolutions: eye strain. At 12***x***
and above, icons (and their names...) start to become so small that, after a
few hours work, you'll get eye/headaches; after weeks and months of this you
WILL get eye problems. I advise my users never to go over 1024x768. If they
want more icons on the desktop, I tell them to put them in themed folders.

And I read that the latest version of the beta did away with the List-View
option?! Is this true?! I got network folders with 300+ files in each!
 
patches never looked good on a hobo, maybe a tweed coat is okay but
microsoft has so many pathces the next version of windows should be a quit
with a heater. (2007 upgrade will include plug)
 
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