Vista 50%

[fedway guy]

I consider myself a well advanced user and I've been around computers
when Bill Gates was in his garage. I've used every version of DOS and
Windows and even OS/2. I've blown up a few PC's learning how to
repair them on my own and passed the A+ exam based on skills alone.

Now with that said, I successfully installed Vista Home Premium on my
Toshiba notebook. Even Toshiba says my notebook isn't compatible, but
apparently it is. The Vista score for my notebook is barely a 1. No
problems yet except for the learning curve with so many new tools and
things to do. I absolutely hate the new security measures where you
have to go in and tweak the security settings in order to just delete
a file. I think Microsoft should have put in a switch for advanced
users to use which would turn off the built in security defaults.

I installed Vista on my desktop as well. A clean install. HOWEVER,
I've run into more problems with trying to reinstall my software,
drivers, hardware, and other things. It got to the point where I got
the BSOD which I haven't seen in years. Therefore, I decided to
revert back to XP Pro which I kept intact on another hard disk.

I will not install Vista on my desktop again until something is done
with the security defaults. Hopefully someone will come out with a
utility to set the security the way YOU want it, not how Microsoft
thinks it should be. My desktop is secure from threats and yet Vista
is throwing all sorts of locks at me to disallow me access to files I
had full access to before. They went overboard for me. Maybe the new
security measures are fine for novice users, but they are a pain in
the ass for me. I should be the one to decide how tight I want my
security to be, not Microsoft. In view of that, in the unlikely event
there will be no changes to the way you have to change ownership and
access rights, I'll stick with XP Pro on my desktop and then install
Linux or finally go the way of Apple and buy myself a MAC.

I'm sure other users like myself feel the same way. While we
appreciate what Microsoft did, they didn't give us the magic key to
turn off security measures we don't need or want.

Let US select from a list of security measures we want. Default it to
the highest like it is now, but allow us to remove a default with a
click of the mouse. I don't see many other people upgrading soon once
the reviews are in from the publications.

 

[Dale]

I consider myself a well advanced user and I've been around computers
when Bill Gates was in his garage. I've used every version of DOS and
Windows and even OS/2. I've blown up a few PC's learning how to
repair them on my own and passed the A+ exam based on skills alone.

Not to discredit your A+, it's a worthy accomplishment, but - and
especially after reading your entire post - MCDST or MCSA or MCSE would be
better preparation for understanding and supporting a Microsoft Windows OS,
including Vista.

Now with that said, I successfully installed Vista Home Premium on my
Toshiba notebook. Even Toshiba says my notebook isn't compatible, but
apparently it is. The Vista score for my notebook is barely a 1. No
problems yet except for the learning curve with so many new tools and
things to do. I absolutely hate the new security measures where you
have to go in and tweak the security settings in order to just delete
a file. I think Microsoft should have put in a switch for advanced
users to use which would turn off the built in security defaults.

What security settings did you have to tweak to delete a file? What file?

I installed Vista on my desktop as well. A clean install. HOWEVER,
I've run into more problems with trying to reinstall my software,
drivers, hardware, and other things. It got to the point where I got
the BSOD which I haven't seen in years. Therefore, I decided to
revert back to XP Pro which I kept intact on another hard disk.

BSOD is almost always hardware or driver related. I'm surprised that's not
on the A+ exam.

I will not install Vista on my desktop again until something is done
with the security defaults. Hopefully someone will come out with a
utility to set the security the way YOU want it, not how Microsoft
thinks it should be.

Right-click on the C drive. Take ownership of it all. Remove the
permissions under advanced that deny List permission to all users. Click
the box to propogate those settings to all files on the drive. Problem
solved. You now have access to screw up anything you can find.

My desktop is secure from threats and yet Vista
is throwing all sorts of locks at me to disallow me access to files I
had full access to before. They went overboard for me. Maybe the new
security measures are fine for novice users, but they are a pain in
the ass for me.

Novice? Hmmm.

I should be the one to decide how tight I want my
security to be, not Microsoft.

Just by virtue of creating the operating system, Microsoft has always made
many decisions for you. There's no way to write an applicatoin without
making and enforcing decisions on the user. The only way you can decide how
tight your security can be would be to write your own operating system. Let
us know how it goes. Does A+ cover that?

In view of that, in the unlikely event
there will be no changes to the way you have to change ownership and
access rights, I'll stick with XP Pro on my desktop and then install
Linux or finally go the way of Apple and buy myself a MAC.

I'm sure other users like myself feel the same way. While we
appreciate what Microsoft did, they didn't give us the magic key to
turn off security measures we don't need or want.

Magic keys have a way of getting lost, stolen, or hacked. Only use them
when there's no other alternative.

Let US select from a list of security measures we want. Default it to
the highest like it is now, but allow us to remove a default with a
click of the mouse. I don't see many other people upgrading soon once
the reviews are in from the publications.

They did exactly what you said except that they didn't default to the
highest at all. Have you ever taken a default Windows installation of any
version and then apply the Security Checklists that Microsoft has published
to really tighten the OS? Or apply the C2 checklist to NT 4.0? The default
is definitely a compromise that tilts much further toward ease of use than
it does to security - even in Vista.

As for how to give yourself access to screw up the whole thing, read my
section above on how to change the permissions to everything in the OS in
one fell swoop.

Dale

 

[Mike Brannigan]

I consider myself a well advanced user and I've been around computers
when Bill Gates was in his garage. I've used every version of DOS and
Windows and even OS/2. I've blown up a few PC's learning how to
repair them on my own and passed the A+ exam based on skills alone.

Now with that said, I successfully installed Vista Home Premium on my
Toshiba notebook. Even Toshiba says my notebook isn't compatible, but
apparently it is. The Vista score for my notebook is barely a 1.

Your successful installation does not mean you will continue to have a
trouble free experience, especially with a score of 1, you will be running
at the absolute bare minimum of capability and will be experiencing some
functionality reduction.
If Toshiba are not supporting Vista on your platform then you are likely to
experience additional problems with hardware support and drivers.

No
problems yet except for the learning curve with so many new tools and
things to do. I absolutely hate the new security measures where you
have to go in and tweak the security settings in order to just delete
a file.

Not entirely true - if you own a file then it is not an issue. If you are
seeing UAC pops etc then you are trying to delete system files etc, and
confirmation is a sensible precaution to take.

I think Microsoft should have put in a switch for advanced
users to use which would turn off the built in security defaults.

They did - you can disable UAC and lots of other security settings with the
simple use of the Group Policy Editor. A tool for advanced users and one
familiar to any advanced user of system since Windows 2000

I installed Vista on my desktop as well. A clean install. HOWEVER,
I've run into more problems with trying to reinstall my software,
drivers, hardware, and other things.

Did you check that you had all the Vista drivers for your hardware and that
all your software is compatible with Windows Vista? Obviously common
practices for advanced and experienced users.
If you did then you should not be having problems.

It got to the point where I got
the BSOD which I haven't seen in years. Therefore, I decided to
revert back to XP Pro which I kept intact on another hard disk.

A pity if your move backwards to XP was the result of you not doing the
necessary work to ensure system capability and stability through he use of
the appropriate drivers and supported software.

I will not install Vista on my desktop again until something is done
with the security defaults.

Extremely unlikely the defaults are just that a common set of settings
suitable for the average user (obviously less suitable for an advanced user
such as yourself) - the onus is on you as an advance user to learn how to
use the system and in particular tailor the security settings to your needs
and expertise through the built in tools already mentioned.

Hopefully someone will come out with a
utility to set the security the way YOU want it, not how Microsoft
thinks it should be.

It is already there - use the local group policy to set your security your
way. Have you actually used Windows 2000 or XP in any depth or the server
side GPO from Active Directory? This should be common stuff to someone of
your experience.

My desktop is secure from threats and yet Vista
is throwing all sorts of locks at me to disallow me access to files I
had full access to before.

Probably because the new security measure are trying to protect you and your
system from errors you may cause through misuse, accident or you allowing
malicious code to run etc. However as covered above these default high
security settings cab easily be removed if you choose to accept the risk
etc.

They went overboard for me. Maybe the new
security measures are fine for novice users, but they are a pain in
the ass for me. I should be the one to decide how tight I want my
security to be, not Microsoft.

Exactly - and covered above, just change the default behavior to something
more useable FOR YOU

In view of that, in the unlikely event
there will be no changes to the way you have to change ownership and
access rights, I'll stick with XP Pro on my desktop and then install
Linux or finally go the way of Apple and buy myself a MAC.

Already covered. If you cannot handle a more secure and yet still
configurable OS the maybe a Mac is more for you.

I'm sure other users like myself feel the same way. While we
appreciate what Microsoft did, they didn't give us the magic key to
turn off security measures we don't need or want.

YES THEY DID !!! sorry, but your inability to use the tools provided to
configure the security on your system to a level that works for you is not
Microsoft's fault - you just need to learn to use the tools that have been
around for over 7 years.

Let US select from a list of security measures we want. Default it to
the highest like it is now, but allow us to remove a default with a
click of the mouse.

Too easy for stupid people to do - better to use the appropriate tools that
at least require to understand the impact of what you are changes due to the
complexity inherent in the tools.

I don't see many other people upgrading soon once
the reviews are in from the publications.

The review are all out and have been since November when Vista was released
to the corporate market. Upgrading continues apace and sales are certainly
still strong for retail as well.

 

[Dustin Harper]

I passed the A+ exam on skills alone, as well. But, the MCSE is taking
some extra study time.

I also installed Vista on my machines (laptop x2 & 4 desktops). Security
for the home user is good using Vista. MOST users (99%) leave things at
default, and don't care. They still use IE and have no clue that
Firefox, Opera even exist. Vista is made for those. BUT, for advanced
users, they give us ways to change it to our liking. Group Policy,
registry hacks, and Windows Power Shell are some great ways to make it
work better. Too bad the A+ doesn't go through that. The MCSE does a
bit, but most of it was learned while actually working with the networks.

And, most (if not all) OS's have some hardware and software
incompatibilities. For the Linux lovers, that is even more so. Linexant
drivers for WinModems helped for WinModems, but most of them are
hobbiest ventures.

 

[fedway guy]

Not to discredit your A+, it's a worthy accomplishment, but - and
especially after reading your entire post - MCDST or MCSA or MCSE would be
better preparation for understanding and supporting a Microsoft Windows OS,
including Vista.


What security settings did you have to tweak to delete a file? What file?


BSOD is almost always hardware or driver related. I'm surprised that's not
on the A+ exam.


Right-click on the C drive. Take ownership of it all. Remove the
permissions under advanced that deny List permission to all users. Click
the box to propogate those settings to all files on the drive. Problem
solved. You now have access to screw up anything you can find.


Novice? Hmmm.


Just by virtue of creating the operating system, Microsoft has always made
many decisions for you. There's no way to write an applicatoin without
making and enforcing decisions on the user. The only way you can decide how
tight your security can be would be to write your own operating system. Let
us know how it goes. Does A+ cover that?


Magic keys have a way of getting lost, stolen, or hacked. Only use them
when there's no other alternative.


They did exactly what you said except that they didn't default to the
highest at all. Have you ever taken a default Windows installation of any
version and then apply the Security Checklists that Microsoft has published
to really tighten the OS? Or apply the C2 checklist to NT 4.0? The default
is definitely a compromise that tilts much further toward ease of use than
it does to security - even in Vista.

As for how to give yourself access to screw up the whole thing, read my
section above on how to change the permissions to everything in the OS in
one fell swoop.

Dale

Funny how you imply that I'll 'screw the whole thing up". And your
snide ass remarks about my A+ exam. Surely you have more faith in A+
than I do or otherwise you would know the only thing A+ means is that
you answered the correct amount of questions to pass. It doesn't mean
you know EVERYTHING there is to know. I only took the exam to see if
I could pass it without studying for it. I did, and yes, it was an
accomplishment. I took the test a long time ago. It's more hardware
related than software, but then I think you knew that. The BSOD isn't
always driver or hardware either. There isn't a damn thing wrong with
my hardware and all of my drivers are up to date. I made sure of that
before I installed Vista and as I said, I did a clean install. If it
ran into any driver or hardware it didn't like, it would have informed
me upon install, it didn't.

Different people have different problems with it. I can tell by your
response that you know everything there is to know about it. Good for
you. Unfortunately for me I don't have time to dig into an OS mainly
due to the fact I shouldn't have to. It should work out of the box.

I did the switches in the security settings you suggested and it
doesn't work for an entire drive all at one time. I tried that with
my notebook in an effort to remove the windows.old directory and I had
to go into ownership and rights for most every directory I wanted to
remove. Especially for the Windows system files. I thought for
awhile that only Bill Gates had the key to allow that to happen.

My point being that they should have set Vista up so that experienced
users could EASILY turn on or off certain rights and privileges
without jumping through all the hoops they put in place.

And for your information, I have never screwed up Windows by exposing
the system files. I guess you are the only person that feels
comfortable with that since it does appear you are a pompous ass.

 

[Andyistic]

Those security defaults that you hate so much are there because most people
who use computers are not sharp enough to guard against viruses, worms, etc
and online exploits.
You would be amazed (stunned?) if you saw how many computers I deal with
(other than mine) which had numerous infections and adware all over them.

If you feel that you are really that advanced, and you know how to prevent
malicious assaults on your machine, then by all means - activate the
Administrator account (the actual name is "Administrator"), and you'll be
free of security hassles.
Be sure to set your Internet Explorer settings to LOW.

If you get infected or find ads popping up from no where, don't say you
weren't warned.

-- Andy

 

[fedway guy]

I passed the A+ exam on skills alone, as well. But, the MCSE is taking
some extra study time.

I also installed Vista on my machines (laptop x2 & 4 desktops). Security
for the home user is good using Vista. MOST users (99%) leave things at
default, and don't care. They still use IE and have no clue that
Firefox, Opera even exist. Vista is made for those. BUT, for advanced
users, they give us ways to change it to our liking. Group Policy,
registry hacks, and Windows Power Shell are some great ways to make it
work better. Too bad the A+ doesn't go through that. The MCSE does a
bit, but most of it was learned while actually working with the networks.

And, most (if not all) OS's have some hardware and software
incompatibilities. For the Linux lovers, that is even more so. Linexant
drivers for WinModems helped for WinModems, but most of them are
hobbiest ventures.

Thanks Dustin. Your response was more civil that the others. You
didn't assume anything.

I took my A+ when Windows 95 was just out. I beta tested Win 98 and
I've worked with every version of Windows since Version 1.

As for working on the edge with my notebook, I've experienced no
problems at all. It's even working faster than with XP. I have not
had one failure on it YET. The only driver I had to update was my
video so I could run at resolutions higher than 1024x768.

I was going for MCSE but didn't have time to devote to it. I went to
register for a class $900 but apparently Boeing had booked the classes
months in advance, thus locking me out. In the meantime things were
changing at a fast paste and it was all I could do to keep up. I
never intended to work utilizing my A+. I'm retired now. But my
computer interests will keep my brain going for quite some time.

I did the UAC turn off and when I went and tried to take ownership of
everything on my main drive, it didn't work and I had to keep going
back for certain directories, especially Windows system files that
were no longer needed in my Windows.old directory. I finally managed
to get that done on my notebook. I've even got Windows Media Center
hooked in through my XBox 360. I don't foresee any notebook problems
unless Microsoft comes out with a Service Pack that screws things up.

On my desktop, I did a clean install on a new drive and kept my XP Pro
on another drive. I have two other drives for other files and data
and for some reason Vista didn't recognize them until I backed
everything up and re partitioned and formatted those drives and put my
data back on. When I made the switch back to XP, they worked just
fine without any tweaking. Weird stuff.

I purchased a Netgear network storage device and have it running under
XP, when I installed Vista, I discovered Netgear didn't have a driver
out and won't for a few more months. Man, that pissed me off. Another
reason to move back to XP. I jumped too quick this time.

Thanks again for your reasonable reply and not assuming that since I
had A+, I shouldn't have any problems. I'll give it another shot at a
later date when they come out with their first fix and Netgear gets
off their ass. What may work for someone else may not work for me.
I'm the only one in front of my machine and I'm the only one that
knows what's in it.

 

[Dale]

Funny how you imply that I'll 'screw the whole thing up". And your
snide ass remarks about my A+ exam. Surely you have more faith in A+
than I do or otherwise you would know the only thing A+ means is that
you answered the correct amount of questions to pass. It doesn't mean
you know EVERYTHING there is to know. I only took the exam to see if
I could pass it without studying for it. I did, and yes, it was an
accomplishment.

You set the standard that it was evidence of your understanding of the PC by
mentioning it. And actually, though I never took either version, the early
versions were hardware but didn't they add OS questions in later versions?

I am quite proud of my certifications. They don't at all mean I answered
the right amount of questions correctly. They mean I studied very hard and
worked very hard. And while you are correct that they don't mean you don't
know everything, they do mean you have exposed yourself to a lot of things.

I took the test a long time ago. It's more hardware
related than software, but then I think you knew that. The BSOD isn't
always driver or hardware either.

I tend to agree with you in spite of Microsoft's claims that it is always
hardware or driver. That is because "always" is such a powerful word.
There are "always" exceptions. That said, every single one that I have ever
troubleshot has been hardware or driver. Always.

Can you provide any examples or documentation for where BSODs occur and it
is not hardware or a driver?

There isn't a damn thing wrong with
my hardware and all of my drivers are up to date. I made sure of that
before I installed Vista and as I said, I did a clean install. If it
ran into any driver or hardware it didn't like, it would have informed
me upon install, it didn't.

You made sure all of your drivers were up to date "before" you installed
Vista? Well, that did you a lot of good.

And no, Vista won't tell you if it doesn't like your drivers in every case.
Look around this group. There are a lot of folks having problems with
drivers that Vista never complained about during install. And Vista didn't
use any of the drivers you already had installed on your system. Updating
or expecting Vista to complain about what you already had was irrelevent.

Different people have different problems with it. I can tell by your
response that you know everything there is to know about it. Good for
you. Unfortunately for me I don't have time to dig into an OS mainly
due to the fact I shouldn't have to. It should work out of the box.

I really don't know much about it. But I know a lot about XP, 2000, and
earlier versions so I understand the basis behind much of it.

But you stated you are a "well advanced user" and now you want Windows Vista
to work out of the box. The box has to support average users - and that
doesn't mean the median or knowing half of Windows. The average user knows
almost nothing about Windows. You can never expect an OS to work for you
out of the box.

While I am generally a fairly advanced user as well, I am perfectly happy to
let Vista work out of the box. I work at this stuff 40 hours a week. I
don't want my PC usage at home to be work.

I did the switches in the security settings you suggested and it
doesn't work for an entire drive all at one time. I tried that with
my notebook in an effort to remove the windows.old directory and I had
to go into ownership and rights for most every directory I wanted to
remove. Especially for the Windows system files. I thought for
awhile that only Bill Gates had the key to allow that to happen.

Did you check the box for Replace owner on subcontainers and objects? Man,
I just hate to ruin a good Vista install to test it but it really should
work. That is a key tenet of the NT security model. While you can take
access to folders and files from the administrator, you can never prevent
him from taking ownership and granting himself access. That's how we ensure
files can be recovered when people leave a company.

If anyone here does regularly use Ghost or True Image and is willing to test
that, I'd be very interested in the results. Or if anyone really wants to
have access to everything in their computer, even things they don't know
what they're there for.

My point being that they should have set Vista up so that experienced
users could EASILY turn on or off certain rights and privileges
without jumping through all the hoops they put in place.

Exactly which right or privilege are you missing? Are you upset that you
can't open the symbolic links in Vista? You don't really want to. That's
where you'll screw things up. And you don't really need to. In virtually
every case, there's a real file location that they point to. Go to the real
file location to see what's in them or manage the content.

As others have said, if it is easy for experienced users to change, it is
easy for inexperienced users to change - which would lead to complaints
about being insecure and would mean millions of support calls. Maybe they
could make you enter your MCP number and validate it online, huh? Probably
not.

And for your information, I have never screwed up Windows by exposing
the system files. I guess you are the only person that feels
comfortable with that since it does appear you are a pompous ass.

If you don't understand the reasoning behind the security settings you can
only screw things up by messing with them. That's not necessarily a bad
thing. We're techies. We break things on purpose all the time. Backup
your Vista or, better yet, use some sort of disk imaging software so you can
get back to where you started, and then mess around with stuff you don't
know about. That's how we learned what we know now, right? Blow it up a
few times. When we screw around with things we don't know about, we screw
them up. Do you disagree with that? But you can't say you don't want to
have to dig in to the OS but you keep complaining that it is hard to dig in
to the OS.

I didn't mean anything personal at all. My point is that you can't try to
get access to things that will break the OS and then complain that it was
hard. And then break the OS and complain that it was hard to do so. Making
it hard to break was the goal. Only time will tell if they succeeded.

Dale