To MS Managment

[David]

To MS Management:

I've seen a lot of computer companies come and go over the last 40 years.

From my perspective MS has forgotten that the consumer who purchases its
products is what keeps it in business.

While I respect MS's right to protect its copyright, as a consumer of your
product
since DOS 1.1, I want certain things:

1) An OS that works 99.99999999% of the time;
2) No extra services cluttering up my OS which I have no idea what they do,
never use, and which open up potential vulnerabilities in the OS
(anything that can remotely manipulate my system for example);
3) Not having the OS periodically tell me this or that is turned off;
4) A manual or some mechanism that comes with the OS that explains in detail
what all the various checkbox choices mean and the reason I need or don't
need them.
5) The ability to clone the entire hard disk so in case of that .0000001%,
I can get back up and working in the shortest period of time.
6) A master list of all identified problems, or potential problems, with the
OS,
in an easy format and a place that doesn't continually change, so I don't
have
to spend countless hour searching the web, MSDN, or whatever.

This weekend was the second time (1st was in January 2009) that my ability
to
clone my hard drive failed after downloading the latest Security Updates and
Authentication.
My previous weeks #1 backup clones perfectly to my #2 backup, so MS has done
something again.
THE INABILITY TO EASILY CLONE MY DRIVE IS A MAJOR PROBLEM!!

So my recommendation is to take a new look at your business plan
- for my patience is not unlimited -
and as I'm sure you are aware, there are other options.

I hope this is of benefit.

 

[Tom [Pepper] Willett]

You won't find MS Management here..this is a peer-to-peer newsgroup.

: To MS Management:
:
: I've seen a lot of computer companies come and go over the last 40 years.
:
: From my perspective MS has forgotten that the consumer who purchases its
: products is what keeps it in business.
:
: While I respect MS's right to protect its copyright, as a consumer of your
: product
: since DOS 1.1, I want certain things:
:
: 1) An OS that works 99.99999999% of the time;
: 2) No extra services cluttering up my OS which I have no idea what they
do,
: never use, and which open up potential vulnerabilities in the OS
: (anything that can remotely manipulate my system for example);
: 3) Not having the OS periodically tell me this or that is turned off;
: 4) A manual or some mechanism that comes with the OS that explains in
detail
: what all the various checkbox choices mean and the reason I need or
don't
: need them.
: 5) The ability to clone the entire hard disk so in case of that .0000001%,
: I can get back up and working in the shortest period of time.
: 6) A master list of all identified problems, or potential problems, with
the
: OS,
: in an easy format and a place that doesn't continually change, so I
don't
: have
: to spend countless hour searching the web, MSDN, or whatever.
:
: This weekend was the second time (1st was in January 2009) that my ability
: to
: clone my hard drive failed after downloading the latest Security Updates
and
: Authentication.
: My previous weeks #1 backup clones perfectly to my #2 backup, so MS has
done
: something again.
: THE INABILITY TO EASILY CLONE MY DRIVE IS A MAJOR PROBLEM!!
:
: So my recommendation is to take a new look at your business plan
: - for my patience is not unlimited -
: and as I'm sure you are aware, there are other options.
:
: I hope this is of benefit.
:
:

 

[Shenan Stanley]

To MS Management:

<snip>

This is a peer-to-peer public newsgroup replicated to hundreds (likely
thousands) of news servers across the globe. It is frequented by volunteers
and mostly those looking for assistance. If you want your 'letter' to get
someplace - you should look on the Microsoft web page for a better place to
send it. ;-)

 

[Shenan Stanley]

David wrote:

THE INABILITY TO EASILY CLONE MY DRIVE IS A MAJOR PROBLEM!!

<snip>

Sounds like a problem that has to do with whatever third party product you
are utilizing to clone your drive. Windows XP certainly does not have this
feature innately.

I would contact those who support whatever product you are having trouble
with (ref: cloning your hard disk drive). I know I use several different
applications on a daily basis to clone/make images of hard disk
drives/partitions and have had no trouble doing so with Windows XP/etc in
quite some time.

 

[David]

No way Jose! MS has done something.
Haven't identified what bytes yet, but working on it.

Fingerpointing is one of the big problems It's easy to blame the user or 3rd
party. While I agree in a large % of cases its the users lack of knowledge.

In this case I've used the same cloning program (WD) for over 30 years and
never had a problem until XP and authentication.
Pull up lifeguard. See the option for XP SP1. Why do you think that's
there? After 3 days of testing different possibilities, I have a HIGH
degree of confidence, that MS has #$%^# with something in the boot area
again.
In my case original boots fine, just can't clone.

MS has gotten just like the auto industry with their TSB (technical service
bulletins). Major problems that persist from production year to year,
consumer bears the cost for a poorly manufactured product, and in most cases
action is not taken unless a safety issue, and then only if enough political
pressure is brought to the issue.

 

[Leonard Grey]

---
Leonard Grey
Errare humanum est

 

[Mick]

Dear David, lol
40 yrs you say, lol


lol
lol

lol

Copy and print your post and send it directly to Bill. That's Mr Gates
to the rest of us. I'm sure after reading your letter, and knowing his
eagerness
to cater to the whims of us his children, I have no doubt in the world that
he
will cancel all calls, re-schedule all his appointments and switch to
caffeine free coffee.
In fact he'll drop everything and spare no expense to make sure he replies
to you. He's
like that you know.
You can bet he will reply to you using express carrier pidgeon. You will
find he looks
forward to letters like yours and he eagerly spends hours looking out of his
window
waiting for the posty. He won't mind you calling him Bill either, he's like
that.

Good luck David, old chum!

 

[David]

Mick -- Hope Springs Eternal -- but I'm also aware of reality -- so
strongly looking at Open Source -- crying shame after all these years with
MS.

 

[Shenan Stanley]

David wrote:

THE INABILITY TO EASILY CLONE MY DRIVE IS A MAJOR PROBLEM!!

<snip>

Sounds like a problem that has to do with whatever third party
product you are utilizing to clone your drive. Windows XP
certainly does not have this feature innately.

I would contact those who support whatever product you are having
trouble with (ref: cloning your hard disk drive). I know I use
several different applications on a daily basis to clone/make
images of hard disk drives/partitions and have had no trouble doing
so with Windows XP/etc in quite some time.

No way Jose! MS has done something.
Haven't identified what bytes yet, but working on it.

Fingerpointing is one of the big problems It's easy to blame the
user or 3rd party. While I agree in a large % of cases its the
users lack of knowledge.
In this case I've used the same cloning program (WD) for over 30
years and never had a problem until XP and authentication.
Pull up lifeguard. See the option for XP SP1. Why do you think
that's there? After 3 days of testing different possibilities, I
have a HIGH degree of confidence, that MS has #$%^# with something
in the boot area again.
In my case original boots fine, just can't clone.

MS has gotten just like the auto industry with their TSB (technical
service bulletins). Major problems that persist from production
year to year, consumer bears the cost for a poorly manufactured
product, and in most cases action is not taken unless a safety
issue, and then only if enough political pressure is brought to the
issue.

So - you cannot clone your system, yet many other people still can do so -
obviously MS has done something?

Yes - I can see that is more logical than something being wrong with your
particular system and/or something wrong with the cloning application you
are choosing to utilize. ;-)

I may have misspoke - it might not be the imaging utility - but something
specific to *your* system. Since cloning/imaging applications (at their
best) don't care what operating system is installed - this would be the more
logical conclusion.

I have systems I cloned/imaged *today* with Windows XP SP3 and all updates,
no problem. I did about a half-dozen (closer to 10) in the last week - no
problem. I've used Ghost, TrueImage and BootItNG. Also have done a couple
of Windows Vista system. One *nix system even. I have even taken a
physical PC, took a disk image of it and converted that image to a virtual
PC.

About your 30 years with (WD) - assuming you mean the Western Digital Data
Lifeguard Tools...? Have my serious doubts about that length of time,
actually. ;-) Hopefully that was a gross over-estimate to try and iterate
your point and not an attempt at being truthful. *grin*

- Are you using the latest version of said software?

As an aside, I would think making images of your drive would be much more
effective at this point - instead of clones. Or a hardware RAID (mirror) if
you are just protecting against hardware failure for the most part. I
particularly like to have a scheduled daily backup of my files/folders
followed by a weekly to monthly imaging session of the partition(s) to
external media for long-term storage. Some combination of something like
that.

*shrug*

You're angry. I get that. Doesn't change my initial comment elsewhere in
this thread from being true - and it doesn't change what I believe your
problem to be given what you have so far in this conversation...

The problem either lies with your particular system, your particular method
and/or the software/hardware involved in this creation of your clone. If it
was something MS did - others would likely experience it - enmasse - and
even I would have likely ran into it in the last week as well with the
various images and such I have created from machines ranging in age from 1
day to 7 years old.

 

[David]

The problem either lies with your particular system, your particular method
and/or the software/hardware involved in this creation of your clone. If it
was something MS did - others would likely experience it - enmasse - and
even I would have likely ran into it in the last week as well with the
various images and such I have created from machines ranging in age from 1
day to 7 years old.

------------------------------------------------------------------

While I respect your comments, I've spent the entire last weekend and
yesterday ruling out my system, my method, and the software -- these were my
first thoughts -- as user is usually the first thing to look at.

A search of the net brings up many issues with cloning XP, using Ghost,
TrueImage, and various other cloning software. So obviously many others have
had problems -- if not within the last few days -- at least at sometime in
the past.

Since Win98 (was present when Gates demo of Win95 blew and Win98 came about
shortly thereafter), IMHO, we've been going downhill by adding everything
and the kitchen sink to the OS. This coupled with an increasing need to
support an ever increasing organization has contributed to finding every
conceivable way to support this organization. A lot of jobs (and peoples
lives) are at stake, I understand this. However this search to support the
organization has its cost -- impact on others -- in my case wasted time and
effort doing what used to be a simple task.

As a user, I should not have to reverse engineer the OS, or try multiple
different pieces of software, just to make a simple clone.

So yes, you may be right, there maybe something I've missed, and it is me,
my systems, or my method, but I DON"T THINK SO, but one can never be 100%
sure.

..

David

 

[Unknown]

Your frustration is misdirected. You blame MS for everything.

The problem either lies with your particular system, your particular
method
and/or the software/hardware involved in this creation of your clone. If
it
was something MS did - others would likely experience it - enmasse - and
even I would have likely ran into it in the last week as well with the
various images and such I have created from machines ranging in age from 1
day to 7 years old.

------------------------------------------------------------------

While I respect your comments, I've spent the entire last weekend and
yesterday ruling out my system, my method, and the software -- these were
my first thoughts -- as user is usually the first thing to look at.

A search of the net brings up many issues with cloning XP, using Ghost,
TrueImage, and various other cloning software. So obviously many others
have had problems -- if not within the last few days -- at least at
sometime in the past.

Since Win98 (was present when Gates demo of Win95 blew and Win98 came
about shortly thereafter), IMHO, we've been going downhill by adding
everything and the kitchen sink to the OS. This coupled with an
increasing need to support an ever increasing organization has contributed
to finding every conceivable way to support this organization. A lot of
jobs (and peoples lives) are at stake, I understand this. However this
search to support the organization has its cost -- impact on others -- in
my case wasted time and effort doing what used to be a simple task.

As a user, I should not have to reverse engineer the OS, or try multiple
different pieces of software, just to make a simple clone.

So yes, you may be right, there maybe something I've missed, and it is me,
my systems, or my method, but I DON"T THINK SO, but one can never be 100%
sure.

.

David

 

[David]

Not at all. Obviously you didn't read the posts.
There are a lot of positives to MS.
But like all organizations, IMHO, have lost their way which is now impacting
not only me -- and possibly many others.

From another perspective, next time you need your car repaired, think about
all the potholes you ran over, the fact your city didn't repair them
and how they shifted that cost from increasing your taxes (by some small
amount) to costing you big out of pocket $$$$. The holes still exist, will
continue to cost you in the future, and not much you can do about it.
Complaints to City Hall have about the same impact as this will probably
have on MS. Same idea if you think about it.

Your frustration is misdirected. You blame MS for everything.

The problem either lies with your particular system, your particular
method
and/or the software/hardware involved in this creation of your clone. If
it
was something MS did - others would likely experience it - enmasse - and
even I would have likely ran into it in the last week as well with the
various images and such I have created from machines ranging in age from
1 day to 7 years old.

------------------------------------------------------------------

While I respect your comments, I've spent the entire last weekend and
yesterday ruling out my system, my method, and the software -- these were
my first thoughts -- as user is usually the first thing to look at.

A search of the net brings up many issues with cloning XP, using Ghost,
TrueImage, and various other cloning software. So obviously many others
have had problems -- if not within the last few days -- at least at
sometime in the past.

Since Win98 (was present when Gates demo of Win95 blew and Win98 came
about shortly thereafter), IMHO, we've been going downhill by adding
everything and the kitchen sink to the OS. This coupled with an
increasing need to support an ever increasing organization has
contributed to finding every conceivable way to support this
organization. A lot of jobs (and peoples lives) are at stake, I
understand this. However this search to support the organization has its
cost -- impact on others -- in my case wasted time and effort doing what
used to be a simple task.

As a user, I should not have to reverse engineer the OS, or try multiple
different pieces of software, just to make a simple clone.

So yes, you may be right, there maybe something I've missed, and it is
me, my systems, or my method, but I DON"T THINK SO, but one can never be
100% sure.

.

David

 

[Unknown]

Not really the same idea. Using your arguments you would be blaming the car
manufacturer for the damage.
If you removed all the NON Microsoft items from your computer, you wouldn't
be having the problems you posted.

Not at all. Obviously you didn't read the posts.
There are a lot of positives to MS.
But like all organizations, IMHO, have lost their way which is now
impacting not only me -- and possibly many others.

From another perspective, next time you need your car repaired, think
about all the potholes you ran over, the fact your city didn't repair them
and how they shifted that cost from increasing your taxes (by some small
amount) to costing you big out of pocket $$$$. The holes still exist,
will continue to cost you in the future, and not much you can do about it.
Complaints to City Hall have about the same impact as this will probably
have on MS. Same idea if you think about it.

 

[Shenan Stanley]

David wrote:

THE INABILITY TO EASILY CLONE MY DRIVE IS A MAJOR PROBLEM!!

<snip>

Sounds like a problem that has to do with whatever third party
product you are utilizing to clone your drive. Windows XP
certainly does not have this feature innately.

I would contact those who support whatever product you are having
trouble with (ref: cloning your hard disk drive). I know I use
several different applications on a daily basis to clone/make
images of hard disk drives/partitions and have had no trouble doing
so with Windows XP/etc in quite some time.

No way Jose! MS has done something.
Haven't identified what bytes yet, but working on it.

Fingerpointing is one of the big problems It's easy to blame the
user or 3rd party. While I agree in a large % of cases its the
users lack of knowledge.
In this case I've used the same cloning program (WD) for over 30
years and never had a problem until XP and authentication.
Pull up lifeguard. See the option for XP SP1. Why do you think
that's there? After 3 days of testing different possibilities, I
have a HIGH degree of confidence, that MS has #$%^# with something
in the boot area again.
In my case original boots fine, just can't clone.

MS has gotten just like the auto industry with their TSB (technical
service bulletins). Major problems that persist from production
year to year, consumer bears the cost for a poorly manufactured
product, and in most cases action is not taken unless a safety
issue, and then only if enough political pressure is brought to the
issue.

So - you cannot clone your system, yet many other people still can
do so - obviously MS has done something?

Yes - I can see that is more logical than something being wrong
with your particular system and/or something wrong with the cloning
application you are choosing to utilize. ;-)

I may have misspoke - it might not be the imaging utility - but
something specific to *your* system. Since cloning/imaging
applications (at their best) don't care what operating system is
installed - this would be the more logical conclusion.

I have systems I cloned/imaged *today* with Windows XP SP3 and all
updates, no problem. I did about a half-dozen (closer to 10) in
the last week - no problem. I've used Ghost, TrueImage and
BootItNG. Also have done a couple of Windows Vista system. One
*nix system even. I have even taken a physical PC, took a disk
image of it and converted that image to a virtual PC.

About your 30 years with (WD) - assuming you mean the Western
Digital Data Lifeguard Tools...? Have my serious doubts about that
length of time, actually. ;-) Hopefully that was a gross
over-estimate to try and iterate your point and not an attempt at
being truthful. *grin*
- Are you using the latest version of said software?

As an aside, I would think making images of your drive would be
much more effective at this point - instead of clones. Or a
hardware RAID (mirror) if you are just protecting against hardware
failure for the most part. I particularly like to have a scheduled
daily backup of my files/folders followed by a weekly to monthly
imaging session of the partition(s) to external media for long-term
storage. Some combination of something like that.

*shrug*

You're angry. I get that. Doesn't change my initial comment
elsewhere in this thread from being true - and it doesn't change
what I believe your problem to be given what you have so far in
this conversation...
The problem either lies with your particular system, your
particular method and/or the software/hardware involved in this
creation of your clone. If it was something MS did - others would
likely experience it - enmasse - and even I would have likely ran
into it in the last week as well with the various images and such I
have created from machines ranging in age from 1 day to 7 years old.

While I respect your comments, I've spent the entire last weekend
and yesterday ruling out my system, my method, and the software --
these were my first thoughts -- as user is usually the first thing
to look at.
A search of the net brings up many issues with cloning XP, using
Ghost, TrueImage, and various other cloning software. So obviously
many others have had problems -- if not within the last few days --
at least at sometime in the past.

Since Win98 (was present when Gates demo of Win95 blew and Win98
came about shortly thereafter), IMHO, we've been going downhill by
adding everything and the kitchen sink to the OS. This coupled
with an increasing need to support an ever increasing organization
has contributed to finding every conceivable way to support this
organization. A lot of jobs (and peoples lives) are at stake, I
understand this. However this search to support the organization
has its cost -- impact on others -- in my case wasted time and
effort doing what used to be a simple task.
As a user, I should not have to reverse engineer the OS, or try
multiple different pieces of software, just to make a simple clone.

So yes, you may be right, there maybe something I've missed, and it
is me, my systems, or my method, but I DON"T THINK SO, but one can
never be 100% sure.

While I can respect you, your efforts and your experience - I can find many
references to the WD disk-cloning utility failing on all sorts of systems -
even when it seems to work. (Corrupt files, folders, clusters, etc -
discovered after the fact.) More often, in that case - it is the utility,
not the hardware or what is being cloned. In the case of Ghost, TrueImage,
etc- most of the issues I personally have had and those I have read about
are bad hardware, bad drivers, etc.

I have no argument with you about how much stuff has been put into the OS
instead of it just being an OS. That's all marketing and then you just end
up with people finding ways to strip down the initial installs, suing over
things being 'supposedly embedded' in the OS, etc. That's all fine and
well. Not really relevant here - in my eyes - since I don;t hink your OS is
your problem. ;-)

I would be curious if you get the same results using another imaging/cloning
utility.

Perhaps get a trial version of one or more utilites and try it - to see if
they fail...

A little dated, but still good information:
http://www.williamaford.com/CloningaHDD.php
(Especially the bottom list!)

More:
http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=418&page=2

This person (also a little dated and wrong OS - but you get the idea) even
shows how to use TrueImage Trial to clone...
http://www.pcdoctor-guide.com/wordpress/?p=4762

Lots more - but you get the idea.

If you have put as much time into proving it is not your system as you say -
then trying a few other utilities should not be outside that range. Might
even discover something that works better than what you are used to using
(or in this case- works period.) ;-)

 

[David]

Mr. Stanley:

Thanks for input.

By using the same system, and recopying last weeks clone (#1) on to prior
week (#2), and using the same WD floppy, IMHO, pretty much eliminated system
and WD.

In a separate thread (Hard Disk Copy Fails (both drives good) , Anna
commented on had experienced issues withWD.

I personally have Never had a problem cloning until XP authentication.
However, am in process of setting up a Linex disk to see if it will clone
the drive that will not clone. Opted for this over TrueImage, Ghost, due to
issues they've had with XP in past -- my net search indicates many.

Re: WD and 30 years, I believe WD been around that long. May of had IBM
drives before that, don't recall -- senior moment :>).

David

 

[Shenan Stanley]

David wrote:

In this case I've used the same cloning program (WD) for over 30
years and never had a problem until XP and authentication.

<snip>

Shenan wrote:

About your 30 years with (WD) - assuming you mean the Western
Digital Data Lifeguard Tools...? Have my serious doubts about that
length of time, actually. ;-)

<snip>

David wrote:

Re: WD and 30 years, I believe WD been around that long. May of
had IBM drives before that, don't recall -- senior moment :>).

Western Digital - the company - has been around that long.
The cloning utility - has not. ;-)

1980 was the first hard drive for -microcomputers- - Seagate I believe
introduced that. But in 1979 - pretty sure western digital data lifeguard
software did not exist. ;-)

To be honest - I have no idea what you are referring to when you say
'authentication' in reference to cloning or imaging even Windows XP.

Activation maybe? This should not cause any issues other than when you
apply the image to different hardware - it will detect the changes and want
to activate and that might fail depending on how often you do this -
however - the activation function will not interfere with your ability to
clone/image the partition/disk in the first place and/or apply it back to
the same hardware.

Might also buils an Ultimate Windows Boot CD...
http://www.ubcd4win.com/

It boots to a Windows XP-like interface and has this tool included:
http://www.runtime.org/driveimage-xml.htm

 

[Tom [Pepper] Willett]

For the record, it's "Ms." Stanley ;-)

: Mr. Stanley:
:
:

 

[Leonard Grey]

I don't care about the OP's concocted issues, but after following
Shenan's posts for many years -- and benefiting mightily, thank you -- I
confess with some embarrassment to not knowing whether Shenan is Ms. or
Mr. I do now.

 

[David]

First don't want to get in debate over # years when WD or Lifeguard came on
line. Been long time. Big Blue (IBM) used to be the name in IT depts prior
to PC before TSR80 and Apple and a few others showed up. Then PC if I
remember my order correctly. In fact prior to PC, there wasn't even a
standard character set. Most mainframes had to deal with EPCDIC, GBCD, and
then finally ASCII, or whatever character set a specific mainframe
manufacturer use. To go back further, in the 60's punch cards didn't even
have printing on the top, you had to read the holes.

-------------------------------------------------------

To be honest - I have no idea what you are referring to when you say

'authentication' in reference to cloning or imaging even Windows XP

This is what I mean.

Activation
During XP install, an "activation" code is generated which takes various
system components
(HD, Motherboard, etc.) and generates a unique number to ID the system.
This number is regenerated checked at bootup to see if any hardware changes
are made
and if some set number or some priority component (motherboard) is changed
then reactivation is required.

Authentication
In addition, periodically through Microsoft Update, you are required to
download a KB which
it titled some like Genuine Microsoft Authentication" -- hopefully I have my
wording correctly as
didn't lookup the KB.

This seems to be where the problem lies because after I download any
security updates where
"Genuine Microsoft Authentication" is included, cloning seems to fail after
that -- This has happened to me twice -- once in January 2009 and now this
past weekend.

Whether their is a direct causal link, I can't yet say for sure, but I've
attempted to eliminate all other causes
and so far have isolated to latest KB download, as disk cloned OK prior to
this.

In regard to using another cloning software, as I think about it, I'm not
sure whether this will pinpoint the
causal issue as the disk boots fine and appears normal.

As I said previously, its obvious something has changed as WD would not
include a checkbox for
"Windows XP SP1 or higher", if something had to be done differently since a
byte by byte copy should not care what the byte looked like, only that it
belongs in a specific sector and track.

----------------------

I have UBD by the way.

My apologies for calling you Mr. --- Ms Stanley.

 

[Unknown]

. To go back further, in the 60's punch cards didn't even have printing
on the top, you had to read the holes.

Not true! The customer ordered what he wanted printed on the cards.
Or, if they had 026 keypunches the cards were printed as they were being
punched.
Or they could be run through an interpreter.