time syncronization

[Pdigmking]

For some reason my new toshiba laptop doesn't syncronize it's clock
properly. My old toshiba (both using windows XP) syncs whenever I
establish an internet connection. This version of XP, apparenlty multi
media version of some kind, will sync on demand, but then it schedules sync
time. This is silly for a laptop because you open and close a laptop
several times.

How can I get this this thing to keep time without having to manually
update the time every time I open my laptop?

On another note, what's the deal anyways? I thought these computers had a
cmos battery that kept track of stuff like system clocks and what not.

Paul.

 

[Frankster]

Need clarification...

For some reason my new toshiba laptop doesn't syncronize it's clock
properly.

Can you explain how you have determined this?

My old toshiba (both using windows XP) syncs whenever I
establish an internet connection.

Again, how are you determining that?

This version of XP, apparently multi media version of some kind

Do you mean "Media Center"?

will sync on demand

How do you demand it?

but then it schedules sync time.

Where? Where do you see this schedule?

On another note, what's the deal anyways? I thought these computers had a
cmos battery that kept track of stuff like system clocks and what not.

They do. What makes you think that your does not?

-Frank

 

[Pdigmking]

Need clarification...


Can you explain how you have determined this?


Again, how are you determining that?


Do you mean "Media Center"?


How do you demand it?


Where? Where do you see this schedule?


They do. What makes you think that your does not?

-Frank

How do I know my clock is off? Because the time that is displayed in my
taskbar is innacurate. If you double click that, you open your time
settings (or if you go to your control panel and click time settings you
get the same dialogue box). There you can set your date and time, time
zone, and internet time options. In the internet time options box you
can select automatic syncronization. I know that it is scheduling a time
for syncronization because it says so, it tells you the time and date of
the next syncronization. If your clock is off, you can manually sync it
by clicking on "update now". When I do this, it updates to the right
time and schedules the next update. When I update the time, close my
laptopn, and open it again later, the time is off again.

I'm reading the documentation on my laptop, and it says that there is a
real time clock battery that can get discharged. It recomends plugging
the computer in while powered up for 24 hours. I'll try that and see if
it makes any difference.

Paul.

 

[Frankster]

How do I know my clock is off? Because the time that is displayed in my
taskbar is innacurate. If you double click that, you open your time
settings (or if you go to your control panel and click time settings you
get the same dialogue box). There you can set your date and time, time
zone, and internet time options. In the internet time options box you
can select automatic syncronization. I know that it is scheduling a time
for syncronization because it says so, it tells you the time and date of
the next syncronization. If your clock is off, you can manually sync it
by clicking on "update now". When I do this, it updates to the right
time and schedules the next update. When I update the time, close my
laptopn, and open it again later, the time is off again.

I'm reading the documentation on my laptop, and it says that there is a
real time clock battery that can get discharged. It recomends plugging
the computer in while powered up for 24 hours. I'll try that and see if
it makes any difference.

Paul.

XP does not have a "Time Settings" dialogue after double-clicking the time
on the taskbar. It does Have "Date and Time Properties". XP does not have a
"Time Settings" program in the Control Panel. It does have a "Date and Time
Settings" applet (same dialogue as double-clicking the time in the task
bar). XP's Date and Time Properties does not have an "internet time
options" selection. Also, it does not have a "time sync schedule" display
in the Properties.

So... you must be using an add-on application that is not part of XP.
Possibly distributed by your Laptop vendor. That is precisely why I asked
those questions. Since XP has time-synching built-in, you do not need any
special program (as in days of old) to sync the time. It would happen
automatically if you do nothing. You should, of course, set the time as
close as you can manually, then allow it to sync when it needs to, in the
background. I think the applet you are using may be interfering with XP's
built-in time synching mechanism (NTP standard protocol on port 123).

Granted, the add-on applet you are using may work fine (if you get it going,
of course), but it isn't part of the OS distribution.

-Frank

 

[Frankster]

XP does not have a "Time Settings" dialogue after double-clicking the time
on the taskbar. It does Have "Date and Time Properties". XP does not have
a "Time Settings" program in the Control Panel. It does have a "Date and
Time Settings" applet (same dialogue as double-clicking the time in the
task bar). XP's Date and Time Properties does not have an "internet time
options" selection. Also, it does not have a "time sync schedule" display
in the Properties.

So... you must be using an add-on application that is not part of XP.
Possibly distributed by your Laptop vendor. That is precisely why I asked
those questions. Since XP has time-synching built-in, you do not need any
special program (as in days of old) to sync the time. It would happen
automatically if you do nothing. You should, of course, set the time as
close as you can manually, then allow it to sync when it needs to, in the
background. I think the applet you are using may be interfering with XP's
built-in time synching mechanism (NTP standard protocol on port 123).

Granted, the add-on applet you are using may work fine (if you get it
going, of course), but it isn't part of the OS distribution.

-Frank

One caveat, if you are using "Windows XP Media Center Edition", possibly
this "Time Settings" applet is part of Media Center. I was addressing only
the bare "Windows XP Pro/Home" OS. Still, I would wonder why you would need
such an app since the OS supports time-synching natively.

-Frank

 

[G.T.]

One caveat, if you are using "Windows XP Media Center Edition", possibly
this "Time Settings" applet is part of Media Center. I was addressing only
the bare "Windows XP Pro/Home" OS. Still, I would wonder why you would need
such an app since the OS supports time-synching natively.

Because XP only syncs once a week. Nowhere near enough if your clock is
slightly off and you want accurate time.

Greg

 

[Pdigmking]

One caveat, if you are using "Windows XP Media Center Edition",
possibly this "Time Settings" applet is part of Media Center. I was
addressing only the bare "Windows XP Pro/Home" OS. Still, I would
wonder why you would need such an app since the OS supports
time-synching natively.

-Frank

Frank,

We're talking about the same thing, I was just sloppy in describing it.
I'm not using any additional programs.

I looked at my other computers and they all have the same thing, I was
misremembering an option to have it update every time you connect.

I should have done a little more research before posting, sorry for
wasting everyones time. I've since figured out that this was not a
software issue at all. The battery responsible for maintaining the the
clock on this Toshiba can be discharged if the unit sits for more than a
month after being shipped from the manufatcurer. I'm a photographer and
I've been using the laptop on battery power since (working assignments)
day one. I just charged the main battery which took four hours, and I
was off. If the clock (I'm assuming a CMOS battery) battery is
discharged, your supposed to plug the thing and leave it plugged in for
24 hours. I'm leaving it plugged in now for 24 continuous hours and
we'll see if that does the trick.

Thanks anyways,

Paul.

 

[Frankster]

Frank,

We're talking about the same thing, I was just sloppy in describing it.
I'm not using any additional programs.

I looked at my other computers and they all have the same thing, I was
misremembering an option to have it update every time you connect.

I should have done a little more research before posting, sorry for
wasting everyones time. I've since figured out that this was not a
software issue at all. The battery responsible for maintaining the the
clock on this Toshiba can be discharged if the unit sits for more than a
month after being shipped from the manufatcurer. I'm a photographer and
I've been using the laptop on battery power since (working assignments)
day one. I just charged the main battery which took four hours, and I
was off. If the clock (I'm assuming a CMOS battery) battery is
discharged, your supposed to plug the thing and leave it plugged in for
24 hours. I'm leaving it plugged in now for 24 continuous hours and
we'll see if that does the trick.

Thanks anyways,

Paul.

Good deal. Glad you found the problem.

-Frank

 

[Frankster]

Because XP only syncs once a week. Nowhere near enough if your clock is

slightly off and you want accurate time.

Greg

No, actually that isn't really true. The NTP protocol and W32time will sync
at different intervals depending on how far off the time error is. If far
off, it synch very often, if close, less often.

Actually the NTP synching is very sophisticated. It even determines "skew"
(I think that's the right word). That is the rate of drift, not just the
drift direction and amount, but the rate. The synch period is based on this
rate, among other things. Very sophisticated. Certainly not as simple as
"once a week". There are MS TechNet articles on this. I haven't look into
it since W2K came out with W32time.

-Frank

 

[Frankster]

No, actually that isn't really true. The NTP protocol and W32time will
sync at different intervals depending on how far off the time error is. If
far off, it synch very often, if close, less often.

Actually the NTP synching is very sophisticated. It even determines "skew"
(I think that's the right word). That is the rate of drift, not just the
drift direction and amount, but the rate. The synch period is based on
this rate, among other things. Very sophisticated. Certainly not as simple
as "once a week". There are MS TechNet articles on this. I haven't look
into it since W2K came out with W32time.

-Frank

Ah... I found two good articles... very interesting stuff. Below is a
significant article from MS and below that a link to an RFC regarding NTP.
Interesting stuff.

=================
d. If the time synchronization attempt is successful three consecutive
times, then the interval check period is increased to 8 hours. If it is not
successful three consecutive times, then it is reset to 45 minutes.
=================

Above excerpt included here: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/q224799/

If you really want to give yourself a headache, here is an RFC describing,
among other things, "skew-error accumulation". LOL.

http://rfc.net/rfc1305.html

-Frank

 

[G.T.]

Ah... I found two good articles... very interesting stuff. Below is a
significant article from MS and below that a link to an RFC regarding NTP.
Interesting stuff.

=================
d. If the time synchronization attempt is successful three consecutive
times, then the interval check period is increased to 8 hours. If it is not
successful three consecutive times, then it is reset to 45 minutes.
=================

Above excerpt included here: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/q224799/

Yes, that's for W32time, AFAIK it's not for the simple built-in client
in XP. In XP it's once a week unless you install a 3rd party NTP
client. I'd love to be proven wrong with XP.

Greg

 

[Frankster]

Yes, that's for W32time, AFAIK it's not for the simple built-in client in
XP. In XP it's once a week unless you install a 3rd party NTP client.
I'd love to be proven wrong with XP.

Greg

The Windows XP built-in time client *is* W32time.

-------------------

C:\WINDOWS\system32>dir w32time*
Volume in drive C has no label.
Volume Serial Number is 9452-AA6C

Directory of C:\WINDOWS\system32

08/03/2004 11:56 PM 174,592 w32time.dll
1 File(s) 174,592 bytes
0 Dir(s) 228,651,024,384 bytes free

C:\WINDOWS\system32>

 

[G.T.]

The Windows XP built-in time client *is* W32time.

-------------------

C:\WINDOWS\system32>dir w32time*
Volume in drive C has no label.
Volume Serial Number is 9452-AA6C

Directory of C:\WINDOWS\system32

08/03/2004 11:56 PM 174,592 w32time.dll
1 File(s) 174,592 bytes
0 Dir(s) 228,651,024,384 bytes free

C:\WINDOWS\system32>

So why does the applet say the time will be synced again on Nov 19, 2006
if it's doing normal NTP?

Greg

 

[Frankster]

So why does the applet say the time will be synced again on Nov 19, 2006
if it's doing normal NTP?

Greg

What applet? Where are you seeing this? I cannot find such an applet in
Windows XP Pro, Windows 2003 Server, or Windows 2000 server. Have never
looked for it on XP Home. Don't have a Home version handy.

-Frank

 

[Frankster]

So why does the applet say the time will be synced again on Nov 19, 2006
if it's doing normal NTP?

Greg

Could it be that someone/something changed your default setting? Here's what
MS says about it... Note, the default setting is 45 min to 8 hours -
depending.

From: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/216734/EN-US/

The HKEY LOCAL
MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\W32Time\Parameters\Period registry
key controls how frequently the Windows Time service synchronizes. If a
value is specified, it must be one of the special values in the following
list: .65531, "DailySpecialSkew" - Sets synchronization to one time every 45
minutes until successful one time, then one time every day.
-65532, "SpecialSkew" - Sets synchronization to one time every 45 minutes
until successful three times, then one time every eight hours. This is the
default setting.
-65533, "Weekly" - Sets synchronization to one time every seven days.
-65534, "Tridaily" - Sets synchronization to one time every three days.
-65535, "BiDaily" - Sets synchronization to one time every two days.
-0 - For NT5DS, the synchronization is one time every 45 minutes until
successful three times, then one time every eight hours. For NTP, the
synchronization is one time every 8 hours.

-Frank

 

[G.T.]

Could it be that someone/something changed your default setting? Here's what
MS says about it... Note, the default setting is 45 min to 8 hours -
depending.

From: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/216734/EN-US/

The HKEY LOCAL
MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\W32Time\Parameters\Period registry
key controls how frequently the Windows Time service synchronizes. If a
value is specified, it must be one of the special values in the following
list: .65531, "DailySpecialSkew" - Sets synchronization to one time every 45
minutes until successful one time, then one time every day.
-65532, "SpecialSkew" - Sets synchronization to one time every 45 minutes
until successful three times, then one time every eight hours. This is the
default setting.
-65533, "Weekly" - Sets synchronization to one time every seven days.
-65534, "Tridaily" - Sets synchronization to one time every three days.
-65535, "BiDaily" - Sets synchronization to one time every two days.
-0 - For NT5DS, the synchronization is one time every 45 minutes until
successful three times, then one time every eight hours. For NTP, the
synchronization is one time every 8 hours.

It had never been very important since all of our work computers are on
AD and at home a good clock isn't that important to me. Thanks for the
info.

Regarding your other questions I just checked a very default XP install.
After synchronizing at the bottom of the Date and Time settings it says:

Next time synchronization: (and the time is always exactly a week from
right now)

But looking through the registry settings I see all kinds of good stuff.

Thanks again,
Greg

 

[Pdigmking]

(e-mail address removed):
Just a quick note. My problem has been solved. I just had a low clock
battery.

Thanks for all the input.

Paul.