G
GEO Me
JAD wrote:
"Home theater amp cooler blowing out.
video editing equipment rack every DAT, DVR, Audio board/mixer MAkie,
all exhaust out"
I guess all the above are computer cases.
Geo
JAD wrote:
"Home theater amp cooler blowing out.
video editing equipment rack every DAT, DVR, Audio board/mixer MAkie,
all exhaust out"
I guess all the above are computer cases.
Geo
B
Bob
There is a large area of holes for mounting up to 4 fans in the front.
That where the air comes in most easily. While air can indeed come in
elsewhere I have never seen accumulations of dust at those places.
Why not put a piece of cheese cloth over the holes in the front of the
case? If you are good with tools you could make a frame for the cheese
cloth so you could mount it.
I am surprised the case makers do not offer something like this.
--
Map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/vrwc.html
"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
B
Bob
I can vouch for that in the scientific area, namely Physics. I did
research in nuclear gamma ray resonance (Mossbauer Effect) and we used
an HP Multichannel Analyzer. It was so advanced for its time that it
had a serial teletype interface for dumping data directly to an ascii
terminal. That was at the university - I went from there to one of the
national laboratories and they had HP MCAs too. There simply was
nothing that could compete with it.
I vaguely recall a metal filter on the outside of a large fan in the
back.
Why don't the case makers or fan makers produce a simple filter for
their fans so we can let them blow inward?
--
Map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/vrwc.html
"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
G
GEO Me
How well would work the type of filter that is used for furnaces?
Geo
F
Floyd L. Davidson
Typical. It might actually shutdown due to overheating when the
filter got totally clogged, but when the case was opened it
would be relatively clean inside.
In one word: money.
People won't pay for it, and given the choice of another unit
without that feature which cost $1 less, they will save the
dollar every time.
Back in those days nobody could match HP's features, so they had
the high ground to go after a reputation too. Today just about
anybody can program a computer to provide every fancy feature
that can be imagined, so HP can no longer compete with claims of
the best reputation for quality. Evolution in action... ;-)
F
Floyd L. Davidson
Well, that *is* the intent of that design! If there are big
enough holes in one place, there won't be suction through any
other places. Of course the "big enough holes" let all dust
totally inside, and then it covers virtually everything equally.
Which can be a bit hard to clean up too!
If you start restricting air flow through those holes in
particular, it will increase the air flow through others. The
effect of course depends on the case and how it is equipped.
Some cases actually are fairly tight, others are not. For
example most cases have grills for two or three fans in the
back, but often the only one equipped is in the power supply.
The unequipped fan grills will have significant air flow if the
others are restricted. If all of the larger ones are, then air
starts leaking through cdrom and floppy drive openings, and every
other little crack that exists. That's bad bad bad. It gums
up the drive mechanism real fast, and that's why filtering
intake fans is best.
Sealing up a box is easy to design in the first place, but
sealing up one of these PC cases as an after thought isn't easy!
It's hard to do it an not get dead air pockets too.
The best solution is to equip two or three intake fans, and put
filters in front of them.
The claim that pressurized boxes get less cooling is bull. The
same problem exists if the fans all blow outward! The trouble
is stagnant air pockets, and it is a fact that looking very
closely at internal air flow is important.
One example that I always got a laugh out of of was the ATT
UnixPC 7300 introduced in late 1985. The first release had two
fans, blowing outward, located on the back, one on each side.
In between these two fans, right in the center of the case, was
a metal enclosure with the full height hard disk.
That design did actually get released, but I doubt that more
than a few hundred of them made it out the door. The hard disks
failed so fast they couldn't miss the problem! The two fans
sucked air out of the case, and right between them was a big
pocket of dead air. Worse yet, it was enclosed in a metal
shield to make it really hard to transfer heat. So everything
inside that shield died. One each hard disk...
They quickly modified the design by simply eliminating one of
the two fans. The one on the left side went bye-bye. The one on
the right side had the power supply right in front of it, and
blew air off it out of the case.
What they should have done was simply reversed the fan direction
for left side fan instead of removing it. The end result was
that as these boxes aged, the temperature controlled fans would
get old and freeze up and stop in low speed mode. The power
supplies would literally melt down if they were on overnight in
that condition. (I had several of them, and added the second
fan, blowing inward. Fan failures happened, but they were not a
catastrophic event for my boxes.)
It was a really poor mechanical design.
So do! All it takes is money. I've seen some with filters
and the works, all very well done.
C
Clyde
Bob said:
There is no fan in the lower front of my case. There is no place to put
a fan in the lower front of my case. There are holes there, just above
the ports. There is no convenient way to put any filtering material in
or on the lower front of my case.
As complicated as it is up there, there is nothing that could even
remotely be considered a natural filter. Well, unless your dust partials
are bigger than a .25" hole. Every other pathway up there is bigger than
that. If you are thinking that dust will catch on the edges of things,
it will, but in very small amounts. It is just enough to make it dirty
and not enough to keep the rest of the insides clean.
Even if I were to filter up front, that would only force the air to find
other less restricted paths. There are plenty of those. Heck, above
the card slots there is an open grill that has way less resistance than
any filtered hole.
That is why I blow in from the side. I can direct the air to the place
it needs it most AND I can filter it. The used dryer fabric softener
sheets work pretty darn good. They get most of the dust. No, they don't
get all of the dust, but I doubt anything would. I suppose you could get
a HEPA filter, but you would have to build something to hold it.
I don't know about all the theories of blowing in or out. I DO know that
I have MUCH less dust with my side fan blowing in with the dryer sheet
filtering than I ever did with it blowing out and no filter. Why would I
want to change that? Right now I'm getting better and cleaner cooling.
Therefore, I will keep doing what actually works best for me.
Thanks,
Clyde
B
Bob
I do not know. I use a metal filter, which is almost too efficient and
must be cleaned often or it will cause the air conditioner evaporator
to get too cold which raises the freon pressure which damages the
compressor. That's the kind of filter I recall seeing on the back of
electronic equipment in the Physics lab many decades ago.
--
Map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/vrwc.html
"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
B
Bob
I use dry compressed air. The compressor is diaphram-based, not
piston-based, so the air never sees any contaminants.
I gently spray compressed air all over everything - it does not take
much pressure to clear the dust/dirt off things.
I realize that, but I am talking about very porous cheese cloth.
The
It is an ordinary case with a front fan blowing in, a side fan blowing
out, a rear fan blowing out and a PSU fan blowing out.
My case has rear holes for 2 fans, but I am only using one. I would
put cheese cloth there too.
Then you recommend sealing off any unused holes, setting all fans to
blow in and putting some kind of filter in front of all fans. That's
relatively easy to do except for the PSU, which has a seal on it that
will void the warranty if broken.
The sides, which come off, are well sealed to the case so I do not
believe that will be a problem. Anyway, if the internal air pressure
is above atmospheric, air will blow out of all openings so there is no
need to seal off everything except near the fans so they will not just
blow out right next to them.
OK, you pretty much answered my question above.
What filter would you use?
Where?
I wonder if there is a kit for fitting to standard 80mm fans.
--
Map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/vrwc.html
"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
B
Bob
Maybe the makers are worried that people will not clean the filters
and thereby destroy their computers eventually.
Actually evolution is supposed to result in higher degrees of
specialization, whereas the personal computer used as an electronic
measurement instrument is an example of generalization.
--
Map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/vrwc.html
"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
F
Floyd L. Davidson
Clyde said:
Somehow I didn't catch that the first time around, and you've
got a *really smart* idea there!
Fabric softener sheets are impregnated with what can best be
described as "anti static" coating. Hence you are not just
filtering, but treating all air going into the system.
Eventually that is going to impart a very very thin film of anti
static coating to everything inside the case. That will most
likely have two beneficial effects. One is the obvious
prevention of damage from discharge of static build up on at any
single location. While the machine is turned on that is of
little to no value, and perhaps isn't worth much any other time
either, if you are half way careful about handling components
any time you do something like hardware upgrade.
But the other effect might be useful. You'll notice that dust
clings to certain places more than to others on the inside of
equipment boxes. One reason is just because "it's there",
meaning if you blow dirty air on something, the dirt sticks to
that particular something. But the other reason for dirt to
stick in any given place is attraction to electrical charges
that have built up and are not discharged. You'll see that on
some wires, around high voltage areas, etc. etc. But by coating
everything with antistatic you get exactly the opposite effect!
Rather than dust being most likely to stick to any given
surface, it is just as likely to remain airborn, and perhaps
even exit the case without ever settling!
That's the best idea I've ever heard of for filter material!
B
Bob
Then why doesn't HP use it?
I have an ill feeling about coating my motherboard with material that
conducts electricity.
--
Map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/vrwc.html
"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
F
Floyd L. Davidson
There is a *big* difference between "conducts electricity" and an
anti static coating. About a million Ohms or so difference. ;-)
D
Dorothy Bradbury
Long thread this... might become a universe in its own right...
Filters are not standard on most PCs for 2 reasons
o Impact on airflow
---- typical axial flow fan has few 10s Pa pressure
---- typical airflow filter has few 10s Pa resistance
---- net airflow with filter can easily end up at 20%, even 0%
---- so a) more fans (more cost) or b) faster fas or c) larger fans (more cost)
o Centralised cooling
---- cheaper to filter all the air entering an environment than per server
---- hence Coloco air is centrally filtered re a) dust b) humidity re static
---- humans performing server service calls routinely affect other servers
---- so adding per-server filter replacement magnifies that risk needlessly
With racks or similar high density equipment, filters are even more of a
problem. A typical 1U rack can have a static airflow resistance of 0.4" H2O,
whereas even 40x28mm 40dB(A) 15cfm 21k-rpm screamers lose 60% of their
airflow at that resistance. Proposed 1U cases circa 2004 reached 0.7" H2O,
which with conventional fans would have exceeded their stall (0cfm) airflow.
Hence proposed 50x40x38 dual-motor concentric fan 56dB(A) screamers. Ah,
machine rooms are going to be such a pleasant place. Bring back IBM 360s.
Consideration of dust is important.
o Increasingly PCs are using skived copper heatsink
---- laptops, desktops & servers
o Such heatsinks have very high density fins
---- little air spacing leaves little c/sectional area for airflow
---- so clogging is easy & additional clogged has a structure to build on
o Laptops can end up with fans running 100% after 6 months
---- desktops or servers are not immune from this problem
So using a proper dust blower is beneficial - heatsinks DO clog up, and
that will elevate temperatures. Traditional broad-spaced alloy heatsinks
are less affected by clogging, but high density fins will clog easily.
Filter media comes in several grades
o Light spun polyester media
---- merely stops blade dusting & limit HSF buildup
---- resistance is low, but clogging often easy due to small media depth
o Denser foam or spun media
---- actually attempt to stop quite fine particles
---- resistance is very high, rendering axial fans inappropriate
o HEPA material
---- typically spun glass-fibre with pre-filter, trap 0.3 micron
---- resistance necessitates high-speed, high-wattage radial fans
Where filtering is used in industry you will find radial blowers, offering
low airflow, high noise - but extremely high pressure to overcome resistance.
The benefit of water cooling is ability to relocate the thermal input from the
local air (that you sit in) to some remote air (that someone else suffers
This can also relocate noise, but introduces some noise factors in itself.
It's unknown how future cooling will develop:
o Limit per CPU is 150W -- dual cores allow alternate thermal loads
---- since the real limit is thermal density and not so much headline figure
o Liquid cooling has benefits -- Intel pilotted some designs
---- PCs re-invent the wheel already solved by Mainframes
---- however liquid cooling isn't popular (many places have removed it)
o Liquid cooling is attractive re density
---- some eco benefit re surplus heat into heating a building
---- main benefit is allowing more coloco/data/cpu per square foot
---- example is the Almaden development of the liquid cooled ice cube
---- altho that is as much about more smart-automated super-dbase-admin
Cooligy have onchip liquid cooling, and progressively we will see a more
micro-management of the thermal load. At least P-M has moved us back to
the P3 in order to go forward at least in more thermally efficient CPUs.
Filter resistance depends on airflow velocity:
o Faster you push air through a filter, the greater the filter resistance
o So enlarging the filter to lower velocity has direct airflow benefits
PC cases are somewhat difficult to filter in this regard:
o Ideally you want a broad space to fit air intake fans & a large filter
o Conversely PCs tend to require several front removeable media bays
If dust etc is a primary concern you need to rehouse a (several) PC(s)
Easiest solution is a large flight case with broad front filter & fans,
PC carcass inside, with any removeable media fed by Firewire/USB.
This has an economy of scale with the more PCs you fit inside it.
For an environment to be filtered...
o All intake air must be drawn through the filter
o Typically this necessitates the use of intake fans on the filter
---- ensuring a positive case pressure to prevent unfiltered air intake
o Conversely exhaust fans could be used if packaging necessitates
---- the case would need to be sealed so ensure air intake via the filter
---- since this is more costly this solution is not common
o Both intake & exhaust fans may be used re additive in pressure
---- intake fans should have a net higher airflow than exhaust
Overall PC filtering is perhaps best done as heatsink maintenance.
That does involve downtime & risk to components, whereas a filter
allows uninterrupted operation - until clogged & overheating ensues.
Laptops are most critical re clogging, and commonly ignored
until someone notices the fan continually roaring at high speed.
You can use vortex cooling to avoid dust, but it's a bit noisy
Remember to keep to like metals (or anti-corrosive treatment) if using
water cooling, and also mould etc inhibitors re various bugs etc. Water
cooling is useful with multi-1U servers in a SOHO environment, where
you as much need to dump the heat outside as the bulk noise level.
Filters are not standard on most PCs for 2 reasons
o Impact on airflow
---- typical axial flow fan has few 10s Pa pressure
---- typical airflow filter has few 10s Pa resistance
---- net airflow with filter can easily end up at 20%, even 0%
---- so a) more fans (more cost) or b) faster fas or c) larger fans (more cost)
o Centralised cooling
---- cheaper to filter all the air entering an environment than per server
---- hence Coloco air is centrally filtered re a) dust b) humidity re static
---- humans performing server service calls routinely affect other servers
---- so adding per-server filter replacement magnifies that risk needlessly
With racks or similar high density equipment, filters are even more of a
problem. A typical 1U rack can have a static airflow resistance of 0.4" H2O,
whereas even 40x28mm 40dB(A) 15cfm 21k-rpm screamers lose 60% of their
airflow at that resistance. Proposed 1U cases circa 2004 reached 0.7" H2O,
which with conventional fans would have exceeded their stall (0cfm) airflow.
Hence proposed 50x40x38 dual-motor concentric fan 56dB(A) screamers. Ah,
machine rooms are going to be such a pleasant place. Bring back IBM 360s.
Consideration of dust is important.
o Increasingly PCs are using skived copper heatsink
---- laptops, desktops & servers
o Such heatsinks have very high density fins
---- little air spacing leaves little c/sectional area for airflow
---- so clogging is easy & additional clogged has a structure to build on
o Laptops can end up with fans running 100% after 6 months
---- desktops or servers are not immune from this problem
So using a proper dust blower is beneficial - heatsinks DO clog up, and
that will elevate temperatures. Traditional broad-spaced alloy heatsinks
are less affected by clogging, but high density fins will clog easily.
Filter media comes in several grades
o Light spun polyester media
---- merely stops blade dusting & limit HSF buildup
---- resistance is low, but clogging often easy due to small media depth
o Denser foam or spun media
---- actually attempt to stop quite fine particles
---- resistance is very high, rendering axial fans inappropriate
o HEPA material
---- typically spun glass-fibre with pre-filter, trap 0.3 micron
---- resistance necessitates high-speed, high-wattage radial fans
Where filtering is used in industry you will find radial blowers, offering
low airflow, high noise - but extremely high pressure to overcome resistance.
The benefit of water cooling is ability to relocate the thermal input from the
local air (that you sit in) to some remote air (that someone else suffers
This can also relocate noise, but introduces some noise factors in itself.
It's unknown how future cooling will develop:
o Limit per CPU is 150W -- dual cores allow alternate thermal loads
---- since the real limit is thermal density and not so much headline figure
o Liquid cooling has benefits -- Intel pilotted some designs
---- PCs re-invent the wheel already solved by Mainframes
---- however liquid cooling isn't popular (many places have removed it)
o Liquid cooling is attractive re density
---- some eco benefit re surplus heat into heating a building
---- main benefit is allowing more coloco/data/cpu per square foot
---- example is the Almaden development of the liquid cooled ice cube
---- altho that is as much about more smart-automated super-dbase-admin
Cooligy have onchip liquid cooling, and progressively we will see a more
micro-management of the thermal load. At least P-M has moved us back to
the P3 in order to go forward at least in more thermally efficient CPUs.
Filter resistance depends on airflow velocity:
o Faster you push air through a filter, the greater the filter resistance
o So enlarging the filter to lower velocity has direct airflow benefits
PC cases are somewhat difficult to filter in this regard:
o Ideally you want a broad space to fit air intake fans & a large filter
o Conversely PCs tend to require several front removeable media bays
If dust etc is a primary concern you need to rehouse a (several) PC(s)
Easiest solution is a large flight case with broad front filter & fans,
PC carcass inside, with any removeable media fed by Firewire/USB.
This has an economy of scale with the more PCs you fit inside it.
For an environment to be filtered...
o All intake air must be drawn through the filter
o Typically this necessitates the use of intake fans on the filter
---- ensuring a positive case pressure to prevent unfiltered air intake
o Conversely exhaust fans could be used if packaging necessitates
---- the case would need to be sealed so ensure air intake via the filter
---- since this is more costly this solution is not common
o Both intake & exhaust fans may be used re additive in pressure
---- intake fans should have a net higher airflow than exhaust
Overall PC filtering is perhaps best done as heatsink maintenance.
That does involve downtime & risk to components, whereas a filter
allows uninterrupted operation - until clogged & overheating ensues.
Laptops are most critical re clogging, and commonly ignored
until someone notices the fan continually roaring at high speed.
You can use vortex cooling to avoid dust, but it's a bit noisy
Remember to keep to like metals (or anti-corrosive treatment) if using
water cooling, and also mould etc inhibitors re various bugs etc. Water
cooling is useful with multi-1U servers in a SOHO environment, where
you as much need to dump the heat outside as the bulk noise level.
B
Bob
Just the same I would recommend clean cheesecloth.
--
Map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/vrwc.html
"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
F
Floyd L. Davidson
Didn't you also mention using compressed air to blow dust out of
box?
Tsch tsch.
The point being, maybe what *you* recommend isn't exactly significant.
J
JAD
and we should ALL take what YOU say as 'fact'.
Fact is, even when using your opinion of doing things, in computer cases
there are always leaks, unless your a big fan of 'duct tape'. Three times
the dirt around the CD/ 51/4 bays and PCI expansion slots.
Also, if you have X fan sucking air and y fan exhausting, if y moves less
air then x , there is a PSI of some magnitude anyway. Which was employed by
some case designers when they had a 3in. square mount in the front panel and
a 1 1/2 in. grill and mount in the rear. Even the newer BTX PSU's exhaust
out (the ones I have seen so far) and have fans of smaller sizes.
'Dryer sheets' as a suggestion for filter material was mentioned about 4
years ago or more, talked about numerous times, and has been the choice of
many for just as long. Long term use will leave a film, and its somewhat
'sticky'. Compressed air, so what, you take the opposite side on obvious
topics and proclaim a 'breakthrough idea' for things that have been in
practice for ...ever.
HP HP HP,,,heh,,,,, I never met a HP fanman. Do you have one of those White
Polo shirts with the HP logo on the front?
I think more people should worry more about the air THEY breath, and a
little less about what the machine takes in. What you see on the filters
protecting your machine is going into 'your' filters also, those are MUCH
harder to maintenance. Filters are a good thing, but when cleaning the HS
time comes round < in a filterless rig>, its a good time to check under the
hood, if you like that kind of relationship between man and machine.
B
Bob
What is the problem? I said that it is dry air and that I use it very
carefully.
Maybe you need to provide support for that claim.
But then why bother. Your comments aren't exactly significant when all
you do is pontificate.
--
Map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/vrwc.html
"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge
F
Floyd L. Davidson
JAD said:
But there *are* areas where Bob has a great deal of experience,
and where *his* recommendations would be very significant, and
mine would not.
We just happen to be discussing something where he has little
background and I have 4+ decades of experience. And that should
have been clear to even you by this time.
You must not have read what I've been saying then. I've
recommended *filtering* the intake, and using fans that blow
inward, not outward.
What you describe is exactly the problem I pointed out can be
avoided by proper air flow design. Which is to say, pressurize
the case so that filtered air flows *out* those holes instead of
into them.
Who, except *you*, is claiming 'breakthrough idea'???? I sure
didn't. Using compressed air is a hazard, and that has been
known for decades.
HP was used as one example. I posted a list of other
manufacturers that do the same (and could post even more
examples if it were significant). The purpose in using HP is
simply that far more people have been exposed to HP's
engineering style than have been exposed to say WeCo. WeCo
would be, except for that, and even better demo...
To some degree that is true. But it is also true that we are not
filterless machines ourselves.
I'd rather clean filters than clean entire machines.
F
Floyd L. Davidson
It's a problem because it's dry air. It causes static charges
to build up on places that are well insulated. I'll grant that
the danger is relatively small, but it's high enough that I
personally won't use the stuff.
It's fairly common knowledge.
Of course, if you spend a some bucks and get a device to add
ionizers to the air flow, it ain't bad.
Yes, I'm aware that you can find untold numbers of web sites
that suggest using compressed air cans. I've even seen some
that suggest using a vacuum cleaner too.
But if you ever have a chance to sit through course on Electro
Static Discharge (ESD) prevention, someone will set up a meter
to measure the static charge from various things. It can be
mind boggling! Simple things like inserting parts into a paper
envelope... bad bad bad! And blasting dry air at parts isn't
good, which is why they sell ionizers for compressed air cans.
(The most fun ESD course I've ever seen was by the guy who
invented the pink antistatic plastic. But it wasn't so much
what he taught as it was the way he taught it. A character.)
No, you have to supply information which suggests that a
recommendation from you has some validity. So far you've
indicated no particular expertize or experience in this field.
And given the seriously flawed remarks in a couple of instances,
it is clear that you shouldn't be making recommendations about
things you aren't that familiar with.
Granted that you almost certainly are a *very* experienced
person in your field of expertize, and recommendations that you
make in that field would probably be of great significance.
Seems that I've been able to support everything I've said with
good facts, and you haven't.
You were even confused about Texans and pig farmers, and got it
all confused about where the shit is Bob! Tsck tsck. Not good.