Themaltake Big Water Cooling kit opinions.

[Guest]

I'm interested in water cooling for my new game rig that I'm building which
will include the following..
1 MSI K8N Neo4/SLI Motherboard
2 AMD Athlon 64 3500+ (Winchester) core CPU
3 Corsair XMS Xpert TWINXP1024-2300XL Memory (LED Programmable)
4 2x Nvidia Geforce 6800 PCI express video cards in SLI mode
5 2x Western Digital 74 gig Raptor 10.000 rpm HDD in RAID 0 configueraiton
6 Seagate 40 gig 7200 rpm data back up HDD
7 Plextor PX-716A IDE DVD writer
8 Lian Li PC-V1200 Computer case
I've looked at just about all of the name brands such as Thermaltake,
Koolance etc. The Themaltake Bigwater kit interest me, for beginners it's
the most affordable at about $150 retail, the lowest pirce i've seen on the
web the web is about $103 which definitly make me happier budget wise. All
the reviews I've read on the hardware review web sites are generally good as
far as the capabilites of kit but I need to know what those who already have
the kit think.such as over the long run what do you think of the
reliability, function, cooling capabilities and also do you have some of the
accessories such as the VGA cooler, flow indicator and t-type water
temperature indicator. Please let me know what you think of this unit. Your
prompt replies will be appreciated.

Thank You

 

[Bob]

I'm interested in water cooling for my new game rig that I'm building which
will include the following..
1 MSI K8N Neo4/SLI Motherboard
2 AMD Athlon 64 3500+ (Winchester) core CPU
3 Corsair XMS Xpert TWINXP1024-2300XL Memory (LED Programmable)
4 2x Nvidia Geforce 6800 PCI express video cards in SLI mode
5 2x Western Digital 74 gig Raptor 10.000 rpm HDD in RAID 0 configueraiton
6 Seagate 40 gig 7200 rpm data back up HDD
7 Plextor PX-716A IDE DVD writer
8 Lian Li PC-V1200 Computer case
I've looked at just about all of the name brands such as Thermaltake,
Koolance etc. The Themaltake Bigwater kit interest me, for beginners it's
the most affordable at about $150 retail, the lowest pirce i've seen on the
web the web is about $103 which definitly make me happier budget wise. All
the reviews I've read on the hardware review web sites are generally good as
far as the capabilites of kit but I need to know what those who already have
the kit think.such as over the long run what do you think of the
reliability, function, cooling capabilities and also do you have some of the
accessories such as the VGA cooler, flow indicator and t-type water
temperature indicator. Please let me know what you think of this unit. Your
prompt replies will be appreciated.

My son has a 3.2 GHz P4 and uses the Zahlman copper heat sink with
good success.

http://www.directron.com/cnps7700cu.html

Even when he stresses the CPU 100% for hours the temp of his CPU stays
under 40C.

The head of technical services at Directron who recommended this
cooler said to install it without the fan controller.

Make sure you can fit that monster on your CPU without interferring
with other parts. There is a smaller one available.

I believe the fan will cool parts on the motherboard too FWIW.

 

[Kadaitcha Man]

Bob, <[email protected]>, the incredulous, long-winded clown, and harlot and
rogue moll, berated:

My son has a 3.2 GHz P4 and uses the Zahlman copper heat sink with
good success.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You ****tard ****.

 

[Bob]

You're not going out until you shut up and eat your weatbix.

Lunatic day on Usenet.

 

[Floyd L. Davidson]

My son has a 3.2 GHz P4 and uses the Zahlman copper heat sink with
good success.

http://www.directron.com/cnps7700cu.html

Even when he stresses the CPU 100% for hours the temp of his CPU stays
under 40C.

If it's under 40C, he should try turning the computer on.

 

[Bob]

If it's under 40C, he should try turning the computer on.

He is not overclocking. And that is one big mutha heat sink. He also
has 3 case fans plus the usual PSU fan.

With the retail box heat sink he was exceeding 75C. Since he had fried
the different CPUs in 3 different machines from overheating (old
legacy machines), he was naturally a bit concerned so he went for what
appears to be an overkill with the Zalman cooler.

Take a look at that heat sink - it's all copper and has a 120 mm fan
running full speed. It's 5.5" in diameter and 2.6" tall. Total
dissipation area is 3,268 cm2. It is designed for Socket 754/939/940
CPUs, which are the big heat generating chips.

http://www.directron.com/cnps7700cu.html

 

[Alan Walpool]

Bob> On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 05:55:24 -0800, (e-mail address removed) (Floyd L.

Bob> He is not overclocking. And that is one big mutha heat sink. He
Bob> also has 3 case fans plus the usual PSU fan.

Bob> With the retail box heat sink he was exceeding 75C. Since he had
Bob> fried the different CPUs in 3 different machines from
Bob> overheating (old legacy machines), he was naturally a bit
Bob> concerned so he went for what appears to be an overkill with the
Bob> Zalman cooler.

Bob> Take a look at that heat sink - it's all copper and has a 120 mm
Bob> fan running full speed. It's 5.5" in diameter and 2.6" tall.
Bob> Total dissipation area is 3,268 cm2. It is designed for Socket
Bob> 754/939/940 CPUs, which are the big heat generating chips.

Bob> http://www.directron.com/cnps7700cu.html

The aluminum/cooper version works fine also. I had a similar with
encoding. I keep the speed control and it works nicely. Turned all the
way down the system is really quite.

Water cooling is overkill unless you are doing some serious
overclocking.

Whatever.

Alan

 

[Bob]

Water cooling is overkill unless you are doing some serious
overclocking.

The 3.2 GHz P4 Prescott CPU dissipates about 85 Watts, if I read the
Intel specs correctly.

Even if you draw twice the current, and therefore produce 4 times the
heat, that's only 340 Watts, which is not that much heat to get rid
of. But I believe you would destroy the CPU internally since no amount
of external cooling is going to prevent internal damage if the chip
can't move the heat to the exterior.

Until I see reasons to believe otherwise, I believe water cooling is a
toy. Since it is a potentially dangerous toy, I would avoid it.

 

[Clyde]

The 3.2 GHz P4 Prescott CPU dissipates about 85 Watts, if I read the
Intel specs correctly.

Even if you draw twice the current, and therefore produce 4 times the
heat, that's only 340 Watts, which is not that much heat to get rid
of. But I believe you would destroy the CPU internally since no amount
of external cooling is going to prevent internal damage if the chip
can't move the heat to the exterior.

Until I see reasons to believe otherwise, I believe water cooling is a
toy. Since it is a potentially dangerous toy, I would avoid it.

I have this heatsink/fan on that exact CPU. It works very well. As a
wedding photographer, I do a lot of batch work in Photoshop. Some of
that uses some heavy duty filters. Many of them will use both sides of
the HT processor at or close to full power. i.e. I'm regularly working
the CPU to its max.

The temp will certainly rise, but stays within the safe levels -
according to Intel Active Monitor. Right now, just using Firefox and
Thunderbird, it's sitting at 40 C. Under heavy work, it will get up to
the mid 50s C. The Intel alarm seems to be set at 57 C for this processor.

I do have the side case fan blowing in almost on top of the big flower.
It does seem to help. I have 3 other case fans (plus power supply)
blowing out. I have a bit of fan noise next to me, but it isn't
objectionable. I don't usually notice it.

The key is that you have to keep the fins on this heatsink clean. When I
get the temp alarm going off, I know it's time to clean. I open it up
and blow it clean with canned air. Then it's back to doing it's job.

Clyde

 

[Bob]

I have this heatsink/fan on that exact CPU. It works very well.

I assume you mean the Zalman 7700 cu. It's one huge mutha.

according to Intel Active Monitor.

I am not familiar with that. Where do I get it?

The Intel alarm seems to be set at 57 C for this processor.

You should also have a BIOS alarm.

I do have the side case fan blowing in almost on top of the big flower.

I have read that the direction of the air flow on the side fan is not
a factor in cooling efficiency. You could just as well have it blow
out, in which case it will aid in removing heat. That may require a
front fan blowing in.

The reason Directron recommends the side fan blow out is to keep dust
out of the heat sink.

It does seem to help. I have 3 other case fans (plus power supply)
blowing out. I have a bit of fan noise next to me, but it isn't
objectionable. I don't usually notice it.

I have 1 front fan blowing in, 1 side fan blowing out, 1 rear fan
blowing out and the PSU fan. They are all the standard 80mm. I put
Panasonic fans in all locations except the PSU.

http://store.yahoo.com/directron/80l1a.html

I have the retail box fan for the Celeron D. The machine is very quiet
- amazingly quiet for all those fans.

The key is that you have to keep the fins on this heatsink clean. When I
get the temp alarm going off, I know it's time to clean. I open it up
and blow it clean with canned air. Then it's back to doing it's job.

You might consider reversing the flow on the side fan and maybe have
the front fan blow in. My case has 4 positions in the front, so I can
put a fan directly in front of the 3.5" internal HD bay if I want.
However since I am running the Enermax 352 RAID/Backup unit, I do not
have any internal HDs to cool.

 

[Clyde]

I assume you mean the Zalman 7700 cu. It's one huge mutha.

Yes, that's the one. It is big and heavy. Then again, I'm not moving my
computer around.

I am not familiar with that. Where do I get it?

It came on the CD that came with my Intel mobo (D865GBL). You can
download it from Intel's Web site too. It's nice, small and tells me
temp and volts.

You should also have a BIOS alarm.

I'm pretty sure that this app is talking with the BIOS. Well, it's
talking directly with the mobo anyway. XP Pro isn't tapped into the
System Zone temps.

I have read that the direction of the air flow on the side fan is not
a factor in cooling efficiency. You could just as well have it blow
out, in which case it will aid in removing heat. That may require a
front fan blowing in.

The reason Directron recommends the side fan blow out is to keep dust
out of the heat sink.

I have tried it both ways. For the CPU cooling, it doesn't seem to make
much difference. However, blowing in does seem to keep System Zone 1 and
2 cooler when blowing in.

My case was a gift from my son, so I didn't pick it. It has 2 fans on
the back blowing out. Power supply on the top back is also blowing out.
It has a fan on the top center blowing out too. I have turned the side
fan to blow in.

It doesn't have a front fan. If it did, you might be right; it very well
might be better to keep the side fan blowing out. My testing shows that
isn't the case in my case.

Without a front fan, I don't have a good place to filter the incoming
air. So, lots of dust was getting in with all the fans blowing out. (The
same amount of air has to get in somewhere.) With the side fan blowing
in, I still get dust, but keep it down with a filter. OK, my filter is a
used dryer fabric softener sheet cut to be about 1" bigger all the way
around the fan. It does filter, as I have to change it about every week
or two. It doesn't filter everything though.

I don't know how you could filter everything unless your case was air
tight. Then you could have air coming in only one place. Then you could
filter almost everything.

Well, this works for me. Your mileage may vary.

I have 1 front fan blowing in, 1 side fan blowing out, 1 rear fan
blowing out and the PSU fan. They are all the standard 80mm. I put
Panasonic fans in all locations except the PSU.

http://store.yahoo.com/directron/80l1a.html

I have the retail box fan for the Celeron D. The machine is very quiet
- amazingly quiet for all those fans.

Well, the Celeron D isn't known as being a great heat producer. (Or
speed either.) It sounds like you have temp sensitive fan speeds. In
that case, it would be pretty quiet.

My experience with the Intel boxed heatsink/fan is that they work pretty
well. They aren't the quietest though. I bet that fan is the loudest for
you.

You might consider reversing the flow on the side fan and maybe have
the front fan blow in. My case has 4 positions in the front, so I can
put a fan directly in front of the 3.5" internal HD bay if I want.
However since I am running the Enermax 352 RAID/Backup unit, I do not
have any internal HDs to cool.

I don't really have a cooling problem with my HDs. I don't do a lot of
computing that works the HDs very hard. I suppose if I had a 10K HD, it
might be another story - but don't really know.

Clyde

 

[Bob]

It came on the CD that came with my Intel mobo (D865GBL). You can
download it from Intel's Web site too. It's nice, small and tells me
temp and volts.

I have several of those although not any from Intel. I have the Intel
chipset and an Intel CD but I did not see anything about that utility.

I'm pretty sure that this app is talking with the BIOS. Well, it's
talking directly with the mobo anyway. XP Pro isn't tapped into the
System Zone temps.

Your monitor is most defintely talking to the sensor chip. The BIOS
alarm is separate. I recommend setting it. Can't do any harm and will
be available in case the other alarm craps out for some unknown
reason.

I have tried it both ways. For the CPU cooling, it doesn't seem to make
much difference. However, blowing in does seem to keep System Zone 1 and
2 cooler when blowing in.

Is it worth the dirt coming in?

My case was a gift from my son, so I didn't pick it. It has 2 fans on
the back blowing out. Power supply on the top back is also blowing out.
It has a fan on the top center blowing out too. I have turned the side
fan to blow in.

I recommend you turn it back out. You are just blowing outside dust
and dirt all over your motherboard and heat sink. My son and I both
have our side fans configured to blow out and our computers are quite
cool.

It doesn't have a front fan. If it did, you might be right; it very well
might be better to keep the side fan blowing out. My testing shows that
isn't the case in my case.

I would move one of those rear fans to the front and blow in. If your
case has several positions in front, you can mount it to blow into the
motherboard chamber or directly onto the 3.5" drive. Ours are
configured to blow into the chamber - the drive will get air on its
own.

Without a front fan, I don't have a good place to filter the incoming
air. So, lots of dust was getting in with all the fans blowing out. (The
same amount of air has to get in somewhere.) With the side fan blowing
in, I still get dust, but keep it down with a filter. OK, my filter is a
used dryer fabric softener sheet cut to be about 1" bigger all the way
around the fan. It does filter, as I have to change it about every week
or two. It doesn't filter everything though.

The front of the case is designed like a very crude air filter. IOW
the air has to go thru some obstacles which helps filter it.

Well, this works for me. Your mileage may vary.

FWIW, Directron sets their case fans up with the front blowing into
the motherboard chamber, and the rest blowing out.

Well, the Celeron D isn't known as being a great heat producer. (Or
speed either.)

My computer is for SOHO Internet use. I do not need blazing speed.

It sounds like you have temp sensitive fan speeds. In
that case, it would be pretty quiet.

The fans are not temp sensitive. They are designed to be extremely
quiet.

My experience with the Intel boxed heatsink/fan is that they work pretty
well. They aren't the quietest though. I bet that fan is the loudest for
you.

I can't heat it.

I don't really have a cooling problem with my HDs. I don't do a lot of
computing that works the HDs very hard. I suppose if I had a 10K HD, it
might be another story - but don't really know.

It's a good idea to take a look at the HD temp once in a while.
Everest is a good utility for doing that.


--

Map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/vrwc.html

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Bob]

Yes, that's the one. It is big and heavy. Then again, I'm not moving my
computer around.

Imagine trying to move it around with a motorcycle radiator attached.


--

Map of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/vrwc.html

"Nothing in the world can take the place of perseverence. Talent
will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education
will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and
determination alone are omnipotent."
--Calvin Coolidge

 

[Floyd L. Davidson]

Is it worth the dirt coming in?

Any air you blow *out*, had to have come *in* somewhere.

One of the relatively poor design features of most PC cases is
the lack of dust filters on fans... and *all* fans should blow
inward. That way the dirt is caught on the way in, the case is
pressurised, and at all of the various holes there will be air
going out rather than in. That prevents dust and dirt from 1)
gaining access in the first place and 2) building up around
every hole in the box where air is moving.

You won't find commercial quality equipment (test equipment
being one example) designed with with fans blowing outward.

I recommend you turn it back out. You are just blowing outside dust
and dirt all over your motherboard and heat sink. My son and I both
have our side fans configured to blow out and our computers are quite
cool.

So if you turn it to blow outward, the dust and dirt just comes
in at some other point, and is deposited... somewhere (inside
the case).

What's the difference?

The front of the case is designed like a very crude air filter. IOW
the air has to go thru some obstacles which helps filter it.

Not to any significant degree. The only difference is a matter
of just where the dust lands, here or there.

 

[JAD]

Any air you blow *out*, had to have come *in* somewhere.

One of the relatively poor design features of most PC cases is
the lack of dust filters on fans... and *all* fans should blow
inward.

I disagree completely, one should always exhaust. This is an extremely old
topic that gets thrashed around for 50 posts. To me its a matter of
experience and preference, others will start quoting mathematical and
scientific equations. A fully pressurized case will cool poorly in almost
every circumstance.

That way the dirt is caught on the way in, the case is

pressurised, and at all of the various holes there will be air
going out rather than in. That prevents dust and dirt from 1)
gaining access in the first place and 2) building up around
every hole in the box where air is moving.

You won't find commercial quality equipment (test equipment
being one example) designed with with fans blowing outward.

untrue ALL my SCSI Dock bays and thunderclaw enclosures have coolers blowing
out.
Home theater amp cooler blowing out.
video editing equipment rack every DAT, DVR, Audio board/mixer MAkie, all
exhaust out

 

[Floyd L. Davidson]

I disagree completely, one should always exhaust. This is an extremely old
topic that gets thrashed around for 50 posts. To me its a matter of
experience and preference, others will start quoting mathematical and
scientific equations. A fully pressurized case will cool poorly in almost
every circumstance.

Quote all the science you like. The fact is that if you look at
examples of good engineering, they *all* suck are into the box
though a filter. The only way to have an exhaust fan and still
properly filter the incoming air is to have a sealed box, and
that is obviously out of the question in this case. Therefore,
intake fans are the only way to properly filter the air.

You can argue from here to the next decade and you can't overcome
those simple facts.

That way the dirt is caught on the way in, the case is

untrue ALL my SCSI Dock bays and thunderclaw enclosures have coolers blowing
out.

Piss poor engineering. Like I said, you won't find commercial *quality*
equipment designed that way. And test equipment is a great example.
(Not that you can't find poorly designed test equipment too, just that
there are thousands of examples of well engineered test equipment.)

Home theater amp cooler blowing out.
video editing equipment rack every DAT, DVR, Audio board/mixer MAkie, all
exhaust out

All consumer grade engineering, designed to save money on the
enclosure.

Take a look at any of the thousands of models of test equipment that
Hewlett Packard made over the years. Quality engineering...

 

[JAD]

Quote all the science you like. The fact is that if you look at
examples of good engineering, they *all* suck are into the box
though a filter. The only way to have an exhaust fan and still
properly filter the incoming air is to have a sealed box, and
that is obviously out of the question in this case. Therefore,
intake fans are the only way to properly filter the air.

You can argue from here to the next decade and you can't overcome
those simple facts.


Piss poor engineering. Like I said, you won't find commercial *quality*
equipment designed that way. And test equipment is a great example.
(Not that you can't find poorly designed test equipment too, just that
there are thousands of examples of well engineered test equipment.)

Says you and only you....Like I said , i can name a thousand types of
equipment that exhaust air out.
Your opinion, my experience and preference along with my opinion.

All consumer grade engineering, designed to save money on the
enclosure.

Hardly home use equipment, professional TV/Audio studio. The Makie is a 50
channel mixer board. that has nothing to do with a computer case, but
everything to do with the NO commercial 'quality' equipment would ever
exhaust air Statement.

Take a look at any of the thousands of models of test equipment that
Hewlett Packard made over the years. Quality engineering...

test equipment SUCH AS WHAT? and what does that have to do with a computer
case?
You have used/seen 1 companies 'way' of doing things and this constitutes
the definitive 'quality'?
If for some reason the 'proprietary test equipment' pressurizes the case
because of atmospheric reasons, hardly constitutes a 'commercial grade'
label.

 

[GEO Me]

<snip>

"JAD":

If for some reason the 'proprietary test equipment' pressurizes the case
because of atmospheric reasons, hardly constitutes a 'commercial grade'
label.

The explanation given by Floyd is the same one that I was given
regarding the design of the IBM 3890 (cheque sorter), a design of the
'70s still being used in banks everywhere today. Each one of the units
that form a 3890 has its own blower to pressurize it.


Geo

 

[JAD]

Yeah and a all tungsten diplomomitor is pressurized, but was has that to do
with a computer case and the way it cools a CPU and other components?.

Nevermind......this area has gone dry, try another phishing spot

 

[Floyd L. Davidson]

Says you and only you....Like I said , i can name a thousand types of
equipment that exhaust air out.
Your opinion, my experience and preference along with my opinion.

And you can't cite any examples of high quality professional
equipment, as opposed to consumer/entertainment quality, as
examples.

Your experience is perhaps too limited. I worked in the telecom
industry for nearly 4 decades, and have seen several generations
of quality engineered equipment. That is experience talking.

Hardly home use equipment, professional TV/Audio studio.

You described it as exactly that: "Home theater amp ..." etc.

The Makie is a 50
channel mixer board. that has nothing to do with a computer case, but
everything to do with the NO commercial 'quality' equipment would ever
exhaust air Statement.

You've just defined it as less than top quality.

test equipment SUCH AS WHAT? and what does that have to do with a computer
case?

PC computer cases are *not* designed to anything near the same
quality. Test equipment such as what??? Do you want model
numbers, or would types do? How about oscilloscopes, frequency
selective voltmeters, frequency counters, spectrum analyzers,
signal generators, transmission impairment measuring sets, etc.
etc.

HP is a good example because they simply didn't make anything
that wasn't top of the line quality engineering.

You have used/seen 1 companies 'way' of doing things and this constitutes
the definitive 'quality'?

Where do you get that idea? I've seen 4 decades of experience
in an industry where reliability was a very high priority.

If you would like other examples... WeCo, Lenkurt, Agilent,
Lucent, Nortel, Coastcom, Tellabs, DSC, and Tektronics are all
names that pop into mind. Trust me, if you buy a $60,000
spectrum analyzer from one of those companies, it *doesn't* have
a fan blowing air out through one hole and sucking it,
unfiltered, into the case through numerous cracks and holes.
(And just in case you are not aware, a modern spectrum analyzer
is about 90% computer.)

If for some reason the 'proprietary test equipment' pressurizes the case
because of atmospheric reasons, hardly constitutes a 'commercial grade'
label.

Your ignorance of HP's reputation (or, former reputation) in the
field of test equipment suggests that this is not a topic you
should be pontificating about. At one time HP literally *defined*
what "high quality" meant.