Telecine: converting 8mm Kodak (non-magnetic) movie film to DVD

[Guest]

To anyone who has considered or used this process:

I attempted to post this message previously, but an newsgroup error made me have to start over. I'll try to reiterate.

There must be a ton of old 8mm home movie film sitting in closets all over the globe and in this country. The problem I've found in trying to find a service to convert this film to electronic form by transferring it to DVD is that none of the Telecine sources (transfer via mirrors versus projection) are local. Since I'm located in Southern California I assumed initially that chances of finding a source here should be quite easy. However to date I've only found the following. One is located in Wyoming and the other in Illinois:

http://www.integratedphoto.com/
http://www.filmtransfer.com/

I would appreciate any response to anyone who has pursued this information and any details you can provide. The above links, in addition to being non-local are VERY expensive, so any details about location and cost would be appreciated, too. If you've actually used one of these services please provide your input as to how satisfied you were with the result.

If anyone has found recent information about a device manufacturer that has recently produced or has plans to produce an affordable home Telecine scanner please provide links to that information.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Best regards,

Wally

 

[joeZy]

I have tried two services recently -- 2 or 3 local one
sometime back. The local ones were useless in my
estimation. I became desperate recently because I had
some 16 mm film. that was about 60 years old, that had
begun to smell 'like vinegar.' In other words the film
was getting bad. The film was wrinkled and buckled. I
couldn't play most of it on my 16mm projector. I tried
one nonlocal outfit through a local photo store and after
waiting 6 weeks they were able to salvage 10 minutes of a
30 minute file. I even sent it back without any
improvement.
I found Integrated Imaging on the internet,
http://www.integratedphoto.com/, and after reading the
feedback decided to try. I sent in the film, 2 days
after they received the film they emailed that the DVD
was ready. I was plesantly suprised-they captured the
entire 30 minutes, the color was restored and there was
correction to the over/under exposure.
I sent them all of my 8mm film and am pleased with the
results -- 4 DVD's.
Hope this helps. The hardest part in addition to the
cost is the idea of trusting the US mail with your
precious film.
And no I don't get a kickback from Integrated Imaging.
joeZy

-----Original Message-----
To anyone who has considered or used this process:

I attempted to post this message previously, but an

newsgroup error made me have to start over. I'll try to
reiterate.

There must be a ton of old 8mm home movie film sitting

in closets all over the globe and in this country. The
problem I've found in trying to find a service to convert
this film to electronic form by transferring it to DVD is
that none of the Telecine sources (transfer via mirrors
versus projection) are local. Since I'm located in
Southern California I assumed initially that chances of
finding a source here should be quite easy. However to
date I've only found the following. One is located in
Wyoming and the other in Illinois:

http://www.integratedphoto.com/
http://www.filmtransfer.com/

I would appreciate any response to anyone who has

pursued this information and any details you can
provide. The above links, in addition to being non-local
are VERY expensive, so any details about location and
cost would be appreciated, too. If you've actually used
one of these services please provide your input as to how
satisfied you were with the result.

If anyone has found recent information about a device

manufacturer that has recently produced or has plans to
produce an affordable home Telecine scanner please
provide links to that information.

 

[HP]

joeZy you are not working for this Company ? just kidding
Here is an other http://www.videographics.net/transfer/index2.htm more
expensive, looks like a good quality. I also have 16mm to be transferred
yet and one will never get this kind of quality doing it yourself. So I
decided just to do one reel at a time

 

[Guest]

Hi joeZy and HP

Thanks for the input from both of you. I didn't give the whole story at the start. The film was given a number of years ago to a service that, at that time, only had the capability of converting to VHS format. They simply took about 15 rolls of film and spliced them together, without any regard to chronology, and transferred to VHS. So now I have a reel that is about 10 inches in diameter and that is my concern about cost. I was hoping to identify the splice points and electronically, after the conversion, re-edit the order correctly myself. Maybe a better way to go might be to just cut the film at the splices and put it on individual reels, if there is no other option

Other than that, I don't think it should be such a leap to think that it would be quite feasible to produce a home movie scanner that would have sufficient quality and be simple enough to use by most people that have some knowledge of computers. It sure would make my situation easier. I would have the opportunity to be personally involved with the process. And considering what the previous service saw fit to do, just to make a sale, that seems to be advisable, if there are devices available (or will be in the near future). I figure I'm looking at close to $1000 to convert all the film to DVD by services I currently know about. Surely a good scanner could be produced for that amount by a manufacturer with a reputation for quality products

Also, IMO, the process suggested by HP is not a Telecine process, but rather is done with a high quality video camera via projection (see http://www.videographics.net/transfer/index2.htm). I had the good luck to find out about Telecine one day while in a local electronics store where I brought up the subject. By chance a customer close by overheard my conversation with a salesman about possible availablity of movie film scanners and contacted his brother-in-law on his cell phone for me. His brother-in-law worked for one of the studios here doing precisely that, but with commercial equipment. Commercially the film is projected via a mirror and a projection light directly onto a CCD. I have be believe that would be a simple matter to engineer into an affordable consumer product. What would be needed would be a transport mechanism, mirror system, light source, and conversion electronics (for want of a better description) to transfer the film onto a hard drive. From there it could be edited and placed onto a DVD via an integrated "burner". Current hard drive capacities are more than capable of handling frame resolutions that match film quality

Thanks again for your input. I look forward to any other ideas you might have

Wally

 

[PapaJohn \(MVP\)]

Hi Wally,

My Saving Movies > Sample Video Clips > page, at the very bottom - has a
sample of what you get by shooting the older film from a camcorder on a
tripod while projecting the film onto a a screen.

It's a zero cost process. The clips are intended to help you assess the
value of paying for a transfer service. Sometimes the low-end approach is
sufficient for the memories. Sometimes it's appropriate to pay the fee for
the higher quality.

PapaJohn

To anyone who has considered or used this process:

I attempted to post this message previously, but an newsgroup error made

me have to start over. I'll try to reiterate.

There must be a ton of old 8mm home movie film sitting in closets all over

the globe and in this country. The problem I've found in trying to find a
service to convert this film to electronic form by transferring it to DVD is
that none of the Telecine sources (transfer via mirrors versus projection)
are local. Since I'm located in Southern California I assumed initially
that chances of finding a source here should be quite easy. However to date
I've only found the following. One is located in Wyoming and the other in
Illinois:

http://www.integratedphoto.com/
http://www.filmtransfer.com/

I would appreciate any response to anyone who has pursued this information

and any details you can provide. The above links, in addition to being
non-local are VERY expensive, so any details about location and cost would
be appreciated, too. If you've actually used one of these services please
provide your input as to how satisfied you were with the result.

If anyone has found recent information about a device manufacturer that

has recently produced or has plans to produce an affordable home Telecine
scanner please provide links to that information.

 

[HP]

Wally I think that is what you are talking about With a Photo scanner
http://8mm2avi.netfirms.com/index.html ? I tried to scan, was not satisfied
with the results yet and there is a lots of work and time involved.
Thanks PapaJohn I did and the quality is terrible there is a program to take
out the flicker, here is the address http://www.stz-sosy.com/english with
samples
A good Projector maybe the secret with speed adjustments. I figured by the
time I pay all the equipment to make a half descent Video I got most of my
16mm Movies done professionally. This company
http://www.digitaltransfersystems.net/ somebody mention, transfer it also to
8mm digital or DVD uncompressed AVI files. I am leaning that way.
Herb

Hi joeZy and HP,

Thanks for the input from both of you. I didn't give the whole story at

the start. The film was given a number of years ago to a service that, at
that time, only had the capability of converting to VHS format. They simply
took about 15 rolls of film and spliced them together, without any regard to
chronology, and transferred to VHS. So now I have a reel that is about 10
inches in diameter and that is my concern about cost. I was hoping to
identify the splice points and electronically, after the conversion, re-edit
the order correctly myself. Maybe a better way to go might be to just cut
the film at the splices and put it on individual reels, if there is no other
option.

Other than that, I don't think it should be such a leap to think that it

would be quite feasible to produce a home movie scanner that would have
sufficient quality and be simple enough to use by most people that have some
knowledge of computers. It sure would make my situation easier. I would
have the opportunity to be personally involved with the process. And
considering what the previous service saw fit to do, just to make a sale,
that seems to be advisable, if there are devices available (or will be in
the near future). I figure I'm looking at close to $1000 to convert all the
film to DVD by services I currently know about. Surely a good scanner could
be produced for that amount by a manufacturer with a reputation for quality
products.

Also, IMO, the process suggested by HP is not a Telecine process, but

rather is done with a high quality video camera via projection (see
http://www.videographics.net/transfer/index2.htm). I had the good luck to
find out about Telecine one day while in a local electronics store where I
brought up the subject. By chance a customer close by overheard my
conversation with a salesman about possible availablity of movie film
scanners and contacted his brother-in-law on his cell phone for me. His
brother-in-law worked for one of the studios here doing precisely that, but
with commercial equipment. Commercially the film is projected via a mirror
and a projection light directly onto a CCD. I have be believe that would be
a simple matter to engineer into an affordable consumer product. What would
be needed would be a transport mechanism, mirror system, light source, and
conversion electronics (for want of a better description) to transfer the
film onto a hard drive. From there it could be edited and placed onto a DVD
via an integrated "burner". Current hard drive capacities are more than
capable of handling frame resolutions that match film quality.

 

[Guest]

Hi Wally, If you only have the 10 inch reel of film your
estimate is off by almost a factor of 10. The 10 inch
reel would cost you approximately $100 to transfer plus
$25 for the DVD.
I would opt for leaving the sequences as they are and
using a movie editor to move them to the proper order.
The less you handle the film the better off you are. I
had a hard time just finding the splicing stuff for the
film about 4 years ago. Splicing has become a lost art!!!
joeZ

-----Original Message-----
Hi joeZy and HP,

Thanks for the input from both of you. I didn't give

the whole story at the start. The film was given a
number of years ago to a service that, at that time, only
had the capability of converting to VHS format. They
simply took about 15 rolls of film and spliced them
together, without any regard to chronology, and
transferred to VHS. So now I have a reel that is about
10 inches in diameter and that is my concern about cost.
I was hoping to identify the splice points and
electronically, after the conversion, re-edit the order
correctly myself. Maybe a better way to go might be to
just cut the film at the splices and put it on individual
reels, if there is no other option.

Other than that, I don't think it should be such a leap

to think that it would be quite feasible to produce a
home movie scanner that would have sufficient quality and
be simple enough to use by most people that have some
knowledge of computers. It sure would make my situation
easier. I would have the opportunity to be personally
involved with the process. And considering what the
previous service saw fit to do, just to make a sale, that
seems to be advisable, if there are devices available (or
will be in the near future). I figure I'm looking at
close to $1000 to convert all the film to DVD by services
I currently know about. Surely a good scanner could be
produced for that amount by a manufacturer with a
reputation for quality products.

Also, IMO, the process suggested by HP is not a Telecine

process, but rather is done with a high quality video
camera via projection (see
http://www.videographics.net/transfer/index2.htm). I had
the good luck to find out about Telecine one day while in
a local electronics store where I brought up the
subject. By chance a customer close by overheard my
conversation with a salesman about possible availablity
of movie film scanners and contacted his brother-in-law
on his cell phone for me. His brother-in-law worked for
one of the studios here doing precisely that, but with
commercial equipment. Commercially the film is projected
via a mirror and a projection light directly onto a CCD.
I have be believe that would be a simple matter to
engineer into an affordable consumer product. What would
be needed would be a transport mechanism, mirror system,
light source, and conversion electronics (for want of a
better description) to transfer the film onto a hard
drive. From there it could be edited and placed onto a
DVD via an integrated "burner". Current hard drive
capacities are more than capable of handling frame
resolutions that match film quality.

 

[HP]

Opps here again to the group
Hi PapaJohn the 16mm sample looks actually not bad what kind of projector
did you use did it had speed adjustment? 3blade 5blade? When I did with
analog or digital camera it looks washed out dark. Thanks

 

[Dick]

Based on this thread I am ready to try Integrated Photo with our
collection of 8-mm silent films. We too tried the VHS conversion
route and were very disappointed. When I look at the order list for
Integrated, I see that the price for a minidv tape (1-hr) is $14.95,
whereas the price for a DVD (1-hr) is $65.00. Why the huge
difference? The quality should be exactly the same should it not? I
can just pop the minidv into our Sony TRV-70, connect with firewire to
our Pioneer DVR-310S and make our own DVD's and save $50 per hour of
tape. Anyone see a flaw in that logic?

Dick

 

[Guest]

Hi all

I ran across this link after reading your posts

http://www.rcc.ryerson.ca/rta/tvtech/the_book/chapter14/main.htm

Other links: http://www.altavista.com/web/result...transfer&aqp=multiplexer&aqo=&aqn=&kgs=0&kls=

I'm still researching this. The above link discusses the Telecine process in detail. It is geared towards commercial 8mm optical film convertion to DVD and is a complete discussion of the use of multiplexers in the conversion process. I haven't even begun to research costs here, but I suspect my initial estimates using this type of process might not be too far off. These systems are obviously custom built in small numbers but, as the saying goes, "You get what you pay for". If anyone has traveled this road, and therefore has some in-depth experience, from the standpoint of the 8mm silent home movie conversion experience to share, it would sure be exciting to read about it

Thanks again for the input from all of you so far.

 

[Guest]

Hi all

This is an update to my research. This link appears to be exactly the type of service I've been looking for

http://www.homemoviedepot.com//8mm_film_transfer.ph

Unfortunately the service is in Missouri. I'm in Southern California. There has got be be something equivalent here in this area!

 

[John Kelly]

Hi there,

That looks good. I wish we had something over here for VHS tapes. A friend of
mine used a local company to convert S-VHS to digital....it was not very good
at all. None of the colour was quite right...I suppose we will catch up
eventually.

 

[HP]

From VHS tapes I do it myself all you need is a digital camera and the VHS
player. I did all my tapes that way and did not notice any loss in quality.
You may improof the quality with your computer with a good editing program
( I use Windows Movie Maker and that is limited ) Here is one Pro who
converts VHS http://www.videographics.net/transfer/index2.htm
Herb

 

[John Kelly]

Hi there,

Yes, I can do it that way...I have both an Analogue as well as a DV camera. I
have not been all that pleased with the results though. Perhaps I should go out
and buy some better quality cables and try again. (You may already know that
the quality of analogue data is affected by the quality of the material it
travels along)

Thanks for the tip on the web site...I will go take a look straight
away...........Many Thanks for your help

 

[Dick]

That's ridiculous. Electrons don't care what kind of material they
travel on as long as the resistance is the same.

Dick

 

[John Kelly]

OK....

 

[Guest]

Hi John, and all

Please take a look at my post after Dave above this post. I posted two links, one from an outfit in Canada, and another that is the results of an altavista search that gives many related links. One of these is from an outfit in Australia. Their service is interesting in what they claim they can do. Their equipment is a multiplexer type process that claims to be able to scan film down to its actual grain size. I put in a "what if" order of 10 rolls of 4" 8mm reels and got a quote of $100 plus a processing fee of around $35. They also claim taking extra care with the film when using their process. Of course, this is a not a usable service, since they are located in Australia, but it is interesting from the standpoint of what they claim they can do.

 

[John Kelly]

Hi there,

I always feel as though I am down to grain size !!! Ha !

Its clever though. it would certainly be interesting to see. Can you imagine
trying to digitise that....To keep that resolution you would of course need one
pixel per granule together with all the baggage of colour depth. That would not
be quite so bad with stock domestic film but even then one frame could be of
such a size as to make it a problem to handle. I know that granule size changes
dramatically according to the type of film. I wonder what size they actually go
down to.

I had the privilege once of being with some scientists when they were examining
the results of a scan (Electron Tunneling Microscope) You could not see any
atoms, it was more a case of seeing where they had been. As it is with laser
photography, the scanning device has to be fixed to a very large and heavy
concrete base. The slightest movement spoils the scan. I wonder if that amount
of effort is needed for scanning granules in a film

I have the Canon FS2710 scanner (scans at 2710 pixels per inch) with I think
48bit colour depth and a high res scan in that makes one frame HUGE when saved
to disk. The quality is quite good and handling of film is an issue....the
slightest mark shows up on the scan and its a slow process at that resolution.
So I guess this company must have some real serious equipment for handling and
scanning down to granule size.

 

[HP]

Hi Wally did you look int this as I mention above
http://8mm2avi.netfirms.com/index.html 8mm or 16mm with a scanner ????

Hi John, and all,

Please take a look at my post after Dave above this post. I posted two

links, one from an outfit in Canada, and another that is the results of an
altavista search that gives many related links. One of these is from an
outfit in Australia. Their service is interesting in what they claim they
can do. Their equipment is a multiplexer type process that claims to be
able to scan film down to its actual grain size. I put in a "what if" order
of 10 rolls of 4" 8mm reels and got a quote of $100 plus a processing fee of
around $35. They also claim taking extra care with the film when using
their process. Of course, this is a not a usable service, since they are
located in Australia, but it is interesting from the standpoint of what they
claim they can do.

 

[Guest]

One of the features this company said they had was the ability to remove scratches that appeared in the scanning process. I'm sorry I didn't save the link, but it is within the altavista search results that I posted.

I don't believe minor vibrations would be an issue. I can't really quantify that exactly, but my guess is that grain size is many thousands of times larger than what would be acquired through an electron microscope.