Telecine: converting 8mm Kodak (non-magnetic) movie film to DVD

[John Kelly]

Hi there,

Yes I am certain that you are right about grain size, it was just an idle
thought that's all

Removal of scratches, the amount of time I have spent doing that with some B &
W 3inch (approx) negatives...mind you they are pretty bad scratches and they
are around 70 yrs old now (My Mum and Dad)

 

[Guest]

Hi HP

I took a look at your post. This process looks very time consuming. The results posted look very good, but what I'm looking for is a service that will produce excellent results at minimum cost and user intervention. (Aren't we all?). I don't want to deal with a service that is trying to reinvent something that already is well developed by somebody else. I'm sure if I pursue this long enough I'll find one.

 

[Digger]

As for 8, 16, and/ or 35mm film telecining resources, the equipment is
indeed extremely expensive. The larger TV Broadcast stations usually have
in-house capability and will sometimes do gratis conversions for Non-Profits
and selected sponsors. On the other hand, many broadcast stations
out-source their telecining requirements and thus, a simple phone call to
the station will usually result in a list of local conversion resources.

Regarding VHS:
Do it here all day long, and without using a digital camera as a transfer
medium. Unfortunately though, I simply cannot do analogue captures using MM
1 or 2, without encountering significant problems; resource intensive,
unreliable audio, video instabilities and conflicts, and the biggy..."Not
Responding." Even if MM worked long enough to grab a 1 hour video source,
without errors, I still would not be able to use the system for anything
else while capturing was in progress.

My most heavily used analogue capture software supports full resolution
capture, cleans the incoming video (Video SOAP)...near real-time...and
writes it out to an "I - frame only (virtually uncompressed)," mpeg. And
all, while I am simultaneously checking newsgroups, email, and handling a
host of other work related projects. I can also capture live video, while
simultaneously rendering production cuts in background, but, not using MM2.

For AVI captures, I routinely use WM9Cap.exe and VirtualDub (preferred),
both work really well. I have also enjoyed great success using a variety of
other commercially available software, i.e., VideoWave 5, ULead's DVD
Authoring Software, and a host of professional video editing/ production
suites and utilities; Avid, Final Cut, and Premier.

Believe it, or... not! Radio Shack is a home video enthusiast's best
friend, especially good for inexpensive video switchers, converters, and
adapters.

--
Digger

From VHS tapes I do it myself all you need is a digital camera and the VHS
player. I did all my tapes that way and did not notice any loss in
quality.
You may improof the quality with your computer with a good editing program
( I use Windows Movie Maker and that is limited ) Here is one Pro who
converts VHS http://www.videographics.net/transfer/index2.htm
Herb

<snipped>

 

[John Kelly]

Hi there,

My most heavily used analogue capture software supports full resolution
capture, cleans the incoming video (Video SOAP)...near real-time...and
writes it out to an "I - frame only (virtually uncompressed)," mpeg. And
all, while I am simultaneously checking newsgroups, email, and handling a
host of other work related projects. I can also capture live video, while
simultaneously rendering production cuts in background, but, not using MM

What is the name of this splendid sounding software, your comment interest me a
great deal.

 

[Digger]

Believe it, or not, ATI's MMC v8.9. Works beautifully these days, and
really provides some excellent options for dealing with noisy input. On the
dedicated record box, I use an older variety ATI AIW 7200 with all inputs
routed through audio/ video switchers and distribution buses.

I have 1 dedicated desktop (record only), and another general purpose
rendering box. Everything is interconnected to 3, switched, TV video
monitors, 4 S-VHS recorder/ players, 2 DVD players, and 1 Audio DAT RP...all
routed through mixers, in/ out select buses, mastering buses, send buses,
and effects buses.

For live feeds, I have a Firewire capable DV camera and an IBM PC based USB
camera, 2 independently programmable Digital cable boxes, and a dedicated 1
input x 6
output distribution amplified bus for basic cable (does not require a
descrambler). Thus, I can easily switch the video capture board to
virtually any input device, while simultaneously recording different inputs
to tape or a variety of other media, and at the same time, send another
completely different video input source throughout the house.

I just grabbed a few small stills of the video workstation area (only 1/2 of
the work area), from video I shot earlier today. I have placed them on a
temporary site, which is currently accessible to the public. The other side
of the same room houses the rendering station, printing, and packaging
areas. Keep in mind this is a home based production setup, purely for
personal enjoyment.

http://webpages.charter.net/test01

 

[Brainwave Surfer]

That's true, but the quality of the shielding is more important than the
quality of the wire, soldering of the ends onto the cable, etc. I agree
copper is copper, but what one does with it varies insanely. I've had
cable TV cables that looked great from the outside, but when I swap them
out, the signal improved considerably. (less ghosting, cleaner picture,
etc.)

 

[Brainwave Surfer]

Wonderful!! what video/sounde capture mechanism do you use, plus the
s/w? I realize that (Your Mileage May Vary)!!!!! ;-)

Jim

 

[John Kelly]

Hi there,

Actually it is not true at all. free electrons will except in very
special circumstances always take the LEAST LINE of RESISTANCE. More than
one electron can not exist in the same location and so must find another
route. If it fails to find a route the electrons work there way up to higher
energy states if they can (Physics 101) until such time as it finds
somewhere to go. That's why inadequate electrical cables can overheat.

The common solution, and because electrons only travel along the surface
of the wire, is to have a lot of thinner strands such that the total surface
area available is increased.

The not so common solution is to use a material that conducts the
electrons more easily, Gold is such a material. More dense materials (not
always) have more tightly packed atoms, this gives the electron an easier
gap to jump and therefore requires a lower energy state in order to achieve
this and consequently more electrons make it to the other end....and that's
what this is all really about....the more electrons that arrive out of those
sent, means a clearer picture (metaphor) of what data was actually sent.

It is why nowadays (in England at least) you can now pay huge prices for
jumbo cables that are guaranteed minimum loss etc etc...they are jumbo in
size because of the very high number of strands etc.

Hope this clears this up for you.

Best Wishes.....John Kelly

 

[Brainwave Surfer]

hhmm.. maybe i'm confusing the a/v cables with coax... coax cables
always have one-strand cable since they carry r/f... I'm not used to
a/v (yet), since I'm only now starting on this brave new world of a/v
recording.

would that account for the confusion????

Jim

 

[John Kelly]

Hi there,

No, there is no problem with that...when you think on it, how much current
(How large is the flow of electrons) in a TV type coax cable. I can not just
at the moment remember the function.....It involves the frequency and
wavelength....but you were in any case right about good connections
...without those you would have all sorts of obvious trouble. Do you know
what the braiding around the centre core emulates? Look up "Faraday's Cage"
if you do not. not sure of spelling ... having a Saga Day here. Because we
have been struck by lightening here which destroyed all of our electrical
devices...I now have the nearest I can get to a faraday cage all around my
office.

 

[Dick]

I have no problem with what you have said, other than it has no
practical application to low-level audio and video signals. We are
not talking about welding cables here. The connections between a
camera and PC, or DVDR and VHS recorder, etc, are very low powered
signals. My DVDR, for example, has input and output levels of 1 to 2
V P-P for the video, and 2V rms for audio. Current is not specified,
but must be in the low milliampere or even micro ampere range.
Heating is NOT a problem. I use the cheapest cables I can buy that
have decent workmanship, and I would defy you to detect a difference
between these and the mega-dollar cables hyped to increase the bottom
line of cable companies. FWIW, I used to be general manager of an
electronic cable manufacturing company.

Dick

 

[John Kelly]

You seem to be a little aggressive. I never said that in the camera world
that heating WAS a problem, I merely used that example to indicate what
happens when electrons can not flow as fast they need to..

You do seem a little over the top...the conversation is about whether really
good quality a/v cables are better than cheap nasty ones....that's all I
gave a little bit of physics to explain some of the things that go on in
general.

I don't care what you were the general manager of...its not relevant to the
friendly chat that was going on before your aggressive I'm Right You're
Wrong because I was the General Manager of a Cable Company

I still hold my point to be true...Best Quality cables are much preferred of
cheap quality....Bye Bye

Fu's set to alt.flame

 

[Dick]

My, my. A little testy aren't we? Apparently you don't like being
challenged by someone who might also know something about cables.

Yes, I understand your point. Very expensive, huge, multi-conductor
cables are to be preferred over cheap, poorly soldered, inadequately
shielded cables of generally poor workmanship using questionable
materials. I don't disagree. Who would?

My point, which you apparently can't accept, is that ordinary, garden
variety cables such as those provided OEM by Sony, Pioneer, RCA, etc.
work every bit as well in small signal applications as the huge,
multi-conductor cables hyped by many as being capable of providing a
state of Nirvana in the audio/video world. They make a lot of money
for the cable companies, but they are a waste of money for the
average person. For those that like to spend money, and have the
latest and greatest looking installation in the neighborhood, have at
it. For the rest of us, we can get along just fine with "standard"
cables. Like you, that's my point and I'm sticking to it.

Dick

 

[Digger]

Wonderful!! what video/sounde capture mechanism do you use, plus the s/w?

My focus here is on analogue capture, digital (firewire) is a whole
different animal...

As indicated in a previous post, I use a variety of software for capturing
and pre-production editing. I have learned over the years that spending
$800.00+ dollars on video production software, simply to capture video, is
like pounding a 4 penny nail with a 5 lb. sledgehammer. The KISS principal
(keep it simple... stupid!) is still a valid concept and always seems to
work best. The cardinal rule in capturing video is to choose the right
(appropriate) tool for the intended job.

For analogue captures to MPEG 2, I primarily use ATI Multi Media Center 8.9,
OEM provided software for my ATI AIW Radeon video card. It hosts more
options and features than most other commercial alternatives. Note: ATI
incorporates software encoders/ decoders by CyberLink, maker of PowerDVD.

The analogue capture device itself is an ATI All In Wonder Radeon, which
supports S-Video/ Composite inputs and outputs. I personally have had so
much good luck with ATI AIW Radeon cards that both of my workstations are
identically equipped.

For most MPEG cutting, splitting, joining, multiplex/ de-multiplex, and
standalone encoding/ batch processing, I really don't think there is much
else that can compare with TmpGenc.exe. TmpGenc is my personal all-time
favorite software based MPEG encoder; especially when used for cleaning
video noise and tape jitter. If I can't clean it during capture, chances
are pretty good that TmpGenc can clean it in post.

For analogue captures to AVI, I use an older version of VideoWave 5 most
of the time. It has served me well over many years and once properly
configured, consistent captures are virtually trouble free. Upon ocassion,
I also use VirtualDub; depends largely upon my mood at the time.

VideoWave 5 is no longer available commercially. Originally developed by
MGI, it was subsequently bought by Adaptec/ Roxio and re-released as
Video Creator (i believe that was the new title). For reasons stemming
from the now infamous CD Creator upgrade fiasco, I simply refuse to do
business with Adaptec/ Roxio. The result is that VW 5 will eventually be
replaced by Pinnacle Studio or something similar. Other companies may
gouge me in the future, but, much like Roxio learned, it will only happen
once.

For AVI editing and scripted batch processing of multiple AVI's, I simply
cannot say enough good things about VirtualDub. I easily process 25 - 30
AVI's every week, all scripted from pre-defined templates, and rarely do I
ever have a problem with the results. Avery Lee, author of VDub, is simply
one of the best good guys I know.

I also use a multi-track AVI video sequencer, called "Multiquence," for
handling overlays of multiple tracks, repairing broken/ out-of-sync A/ V
tracks, and a host of other special purpose applications. Although rarely
needed, it can often mean the difference between salvaging a bad piece of
video or having to delete it as unusable. It functions very similar to the
$400 - 600.00 dollar multi-track video editing suites, and costs much less
than a nice dinner for two, with Chianti; I would pass on the Fava beans!

For Audio ripping, editing, noise reduction, conversions (including WMA)
and virtually anything else related to audio that one can think of, I use
"GoldWave." GoldWave also authors "Multiquence" and both applications
can be fully integrated.

For DVD Authoring, I prefer the simplistic design of ULead's DVD
MovieFactory 3, but also rely heavily upon ULead DVD Workshop. DVD
MovieFactory 3 also supports WMV output to DVD. I would caution others that
I have run into some frustrating issues with newly released versions of
software from ULead, both past and present. ULead does eventually post
fixes for issues of major irritation, but it is my contention that their
software is rushed to market before it is fully qualified. I stick with
ULead only because the UI is so well organized, intuitive, and most of the
time, it works pretty well. Trust me though, always proof the DVD menus,
located in the DMF temp folder, and test the VOBs before final burn.

For WMV output, I use WMEncoder as opposed to mm2. I first build
my production in VirtualDub, or something else, and then encode it using
WMEncoder.

====
Regarding (S) VHS/ broadcast TV and analogue MPEG Captures:

So, what jobs lend themselves best to MPEG? Honestly, only those jobs that
do not require extensive follow-up editing; i.e. complex linear or
non-linear cutting/ splicing and/ or conversion to other video formats.
Once an MPEG, always an MPEG.

Assume I wanted to grab a 1 hour PBS segment (commercial free and
uninterupted) and my intent was to capture S-Video input from my TV or
VCR and produce a DVD. MPEG-2 would be an appropriate choice purely from
the standpoint of expediency and minimal editing requirements -- perhaps
only minor trimming is required at begining and end.

When capturing anologue input directly to MPEG 2, Choose "I-frame only,"
which can eliminate most of the potential problems normally encountered when
editing Groups Of Pictures (GOP). Normally, a GOP = 15-->18 inter-frame
dependencies, based upon (I)ndex (B)i-directional and (P)redictive
framesets.

Since DV compression is essentially an I-frame only MPEG, then it also
follows that this is the equivalent of assigning a GOP of 1. Thus when
using I-Frame only, there is no significant degradation when compared with
IBP frame compression, and every frame is essentially a key frame.

MPEG "I-frame only" also enables you to cut clips at frame boundaries
instead of being forced to cut into a 15 or 18 frame GOP. This means
that non-linear editing is supported. The end result is that your captured
mpg is less prone to erratic behavior (smoother playback), easier on
system resources, and normally allows for greater flexibility in production.

====
Regarding (S) VHS/ broadcast TV/ and analogue AVI Captures:

If I have a 1 hour of off-air video filled with commercial interruptions, I
would probably want to do some serious editing -- audio/ video fades,
transitions, and possibly inter-cuts with other content. Assuming DVD as
target output, I would probably go with a type 1 or II AVI format, using
either RAW or Huffman (Huffyuv lossless) compression. Once the final cut
has been prepared for rendering, I either send it to TmpGenc for cleanup
and output, or, if the raw avi video does not need extensive cleaning, I
import the AVI directly into ULead's DVD authoring software for final
output. Rendering a 60 min AVI to DVD normally takes ULead MF about
3 hours, but rendering the same AVI via TmpGenc could take upwards of
16-18 hours. However, TmpGenc will generally result in superior quality.

For the best possible renderings from TmpGenc, I use an external
TooLame audio encoder, in conjunction with SSRC audio resampling plugin.
TmpGenc does not consistently deliver high quality audio without some
serious help.

AVI formats can make life a whole lot easier in many situations, and
especially when separate audio and video streams are desired. It is also
far less expensive to acquire and maintain AVI compliant editors, filters,
utilities and effects; generally available to anyone with internet access.

Additionally, this format still offers wider compatibility across all
currently existing editors/ and authoring software. Other advantages
include elemental stream substitutions, segmented replacements, non-linear
editing, interleave of independent audio and video streams, easy repair of
broken headers, and features to correct out-of-sync issues.

In closing, here are a few still photos, some not-so-good, of my small
home based media center and video processing setup...demonstrates what
can be done on a low budget using Radio Shack and Home Theatre
equipment suppliers.

http://webpages.charter.net/test01

 

[John Kelly]

Well, its not me you are challenging, its an entire industry, which makes me
wonder what kind of cable company you were the general manager of. If you
have not yet learnt the lesson that when you buy a kit you will buy the
cheapest a company can sell you, then you have a long way yet to go.

And I still hold my initial point to be correct, So thank you for your
input...and goodbye

Have A Nice Day now.......