Talking to NT 3.51

[jjjdavidson]

OK, I'm probably doomed to disappointment on this one, but
these groups pull rabbits out of hats pretty often.

We have an SBS 2003 domain with mostly Win XP and W2K
workstations. But we have one old box running NT 3.51 (a
piece of old CNC equipment running proprietary software
that we can't easily upgrade). The 3.51 box joined the
domain just fine, reads from the server just fine.

But XP and W2K have trouble reading shared folders on the
3.51 box. A DOS DIR command works fine. Anything more
complex, and the accessing program runs in fits and jerks.

Just scrolling down a list of files in explorer.exe, you
can scroll thru several files, then explorer will just
halt for 35-45 seconds, then for a few seconds you can
scroll thru more files, then another 35-45 second halt.
File size is irrelevant to response time; it hangs on 1Kb
files as readily as 1Mb files.

Run any program on W2K or XP (even notepad) that opens a
shared file on the 3.51 box, and either it zips along
normally or it halts for 45 seconds, then runs fine. If
you have explorer.exe and something else both reading the
3.51 box, they'll both halt together, then both run
together. (The XP/2K machine itself doesn't hang, just
whatever programs are reading from 3.51 shares.)

Backups, needless to say, take forever. Weirdly (or not),
our one remaining NT 4.0 machine shows no hesitations at
all reading from the 3.51 shares.

Anybody know why XP and 2K can't read happily from 3.51?

Thanks!

 

[Yor Suiris]

Protocols. Make sure all your machines are using the same set of protocols.
And since you have an NT 3.51 you will need NetBuIE as well as TCP on all
your machines. And be sure to remove SPX from the NTs (installed by
default). You will also have to manually add DNS entries for the NTs. You
should also set up a WINS server for the NTs.

 

[jjjdavidson]

Win XP doesn't seem to offer NetBEUI as a protocol, and
SBS 2003 specifically doesn't support it. However, I
added it to a W2K machine, with no apparent effect; I
still get halts of 45 seconds or so, with spikes up to 2
minutes.

None of our machines have SPX installed. We're using
DHCP, and IPCONFIG shows that the NT 3.51 machine is
getting a DNS and WINS address properly.

Does the order of bindings for TCP/IP vs. NetBEUI on the
3.51 box matter? Also, what are the five "Remote Access
WAN Wrappers" on it for?

Thank you!

 

[Phillip Windell]

You don't need NetBEUI. People always confuse NetBEUI with NetBios,..they
are *not* the same thing. All you need is TCP/IP, NT3.5 should still use
TCP/IP just fine even if it may not be the "default" protocol. Don't make
life complicated, don't run anything other than TCP/IP.

The NT box will have trouble if you don't have a properly configured and
functioning WINS Server. The WINS & DNS of SBS2003 will work fine.

You might have problems with SMB signing. The following issue can happen
with anything older than Win95 (including DOS) and NT4sp3, and also
Macintosh and any flavor of Linux/Unix

811497 - Error Message When Windows 95 or Windows NT 4.0 Client
Logs On to Windows Server 2003 Domain
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;811497

Although following artical doesn't seem to directly apply, you may be
bumping heads with this as well.

321169 - Slow SMB Performance When You Copy Files from Windows XP to a
Windows 2000 Domain
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=321169

 

[Yor Suiris]

I know that MY network, with older machines (Win9x, NT4 & 3.51), runs much
better if I use NetBUIE on ALL the machines.

 

[jjjdavidson]

You don't need NetBEUI.
So, can I take out the NetBEUI protocol on NT 3.51? or
just unbind it?

functioning WINS Server.

Do I have to configure anything for WINS on SBS 2003? If
I just point other workstations at the server, will it
configure WINS properly itself?

You might have problems with SMB signing.

I turned off SMB signing about 2 months back; it may have
sped up some other things but didn't seem to affect this
particular problem at all.

But that TCP ACK business sounds suspiciously like the
problem I was trying to solve when I turned SMB signing
off in the first place: Copying a large file onto our SBS
2003 server caused the server to virtually stop responding
to other workstations. What's the best way to make sure
that SMB signing is really off? (My understanding of how
GP is applied is still pretty hazy.)

-----Original Message-----
You don't need NetBEUI. People always confuse NetBEUI with NetBios,..they
are *not* the same thing. All you need is TCP/IP, NT3.5 should still use
TCP/IP just fine even if it may not be the "default" protocol. Don't make
life complicated, don't run anything other than TCP/IP.

The NT box will have trouble if you don't have a properly configured and
functioning WINS Server. The WINS & DNS of SBS2003 will work fine.

You might have problems with SMB signing. The following issue can happen
with anything older than Win95 (including DOS) and NT4sp3, and also
Macintosh and any flavor of Linux/Unix

811497 - Error Message When Windows 95 or Windows NT 4.0 Client
Logs On to Windows Server 2003 Domain
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en- us;811497

Although following artical doesn't seem to directly apply, you may be
bumping heads with this as well.

321169 - Slow SMB Performance When You Copy Files from Windows XP to a
Windows 2000 Domain
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=321169

--

Phillip Windell [MCP, MVP, CCNA]
www.wandtv.com

Win XP doesn't seem to offer NetBEUI as a protocol, and
SBS 2003 specifically doesn't support it. However, I
added it to a W2K machine, with no apparent effect; I
still get halts of 45 seconds or so, with spikes up to 2
minutes.

None of our machines have SPX installed. We're using
DHCP, and IPCONFIG shows that the NT 3.51 machine is
getting a DNS and WINS address properly.

Does the order of bindings for TCP/IP vs. NetBEUI on the
3.51 box matter? Also, what are the five "Remote Access
WAN Wrappers" on it for?

Thank you!
same
set of protocols. entries
for the NTs. You wrote
in message one,
but 3.51
(a

 

[Phillip Windell]

So, can I take out the NetBEUI protocol on NT 3.51? or
just unbind it?

I'd remove it

Do I have to configure anything for WINS on SBS 2003? If

It has to be installed and running properly. There isn't that much to WINS,
it is pretty simple.

I just point other workstations at the server, will it
configure WINS properly itself?

WINS will enter any client that uses it into its database.

I turned off SMB signing about 2 months back; it may have
sped up some other things but didn't seem to affect this
particular problem at all.

But that TCP ACK business sounds suspiciously like the
problem I was trying to solve when I turned SMB signing
off in the first place: Copying a large file onto our SBS
2003 server caused the server to virtually stop responding
to other workstations. What's the best way to make sure
that SMB signing is really off? (My understanding of how
GP is applied is still pretty hazy.)

I don't know. The links to those articles is all I have. I have never had
any problems with those types of things myself.

 

[Guest]

Sorry to keep going on with this, but I'm learning a ton
here.

Yes, WINS is installed and running on our SBS 2003 server,
and it shows a couple of interesting things: the NT 3.51
machine shows up as an "RAS Server" and also as "--
__MSBROWSE__-" which I believe means it thinks it's a
master browser. Since we have a domain master browser,
will this create some sort of conflict, or can I just
ignore it?

(The NT 3.51 box gets a double-computer icon in WINS
instead of a single one, as if WINS thinks it's a server.
Hmm.)

Thanks a million!
Jay

 

[Phillip Windell]

and it shows a couple of interesting things: the NT 3.51
machine shows up as an "RAS Server" and also as "--
__MSBROWSE__-" which I believe means it thinks it's a
master browser. Since we have a domain master browser,
will this create some sort of conflict, or can I just
ignore it?

You can delete any or all WINS entries if you are in doubt of their
correctness. The WINS will rebuild its database as the clients are shut down
and started up as time goes by. On more than one occasion I have completely
cleaned out a WINS Database and let it rebuild itself.

Your Normal DC should be the Master Browser and the Domain Master Browser.
Each IP Subnet will also have a Master Browser that looks to the Domain
Master Browser. The Master Browser thing can get a bit complex.