Cant get dialup internet to work on ANY *NT* system.

[casey.o]

I can only get dialup internet where I live (rural area). Well, ok, I
could spend a fortune every month for satellite internet, but I cant
afford it.

Anyhow, I can connect just fine to the internet using Win98se. (I'm
using it now). I normally connect from 35K to 45K using a 56K modem.
(It's usually fastest late at night when others are not using it).

About 5 Years ago, I installed Win2000 on this same computer as a dual
boot OS. I have never been able to get a decent connection. I can
connect anywhere from 24K to 38K, but once connected, I cant get any
data transferred after a couple minutes. Just to open one mesage on
this newsgroup can take 5 minutes. I have tried over and over to get
Win2K to connect properly, and finally just gace up. I'm using the same
modem, same phone line, and same computer as Win98, except I'm using
Win2K.

Well, I just installed XP on another compurter as you have likely read
in my other posts. It's XP Home SP2, on a Compaq Presario 5400US
computer.

The computer came with a built in 56K PCTEL modem. I have the same
problem as I did using Win2K. I spend the last few days trying to
modify the settings, and reading websites about this. No Luck!!!!

I just physically removed that internal modem, and connected the same
modem I am using now, in Win98. (external modem). I installed all the
drivers, and connected. SAME SHIT! I am connecting at 38K, but no data
gets transferred, or very little. It took 12 minutesx just to get a
google start page to load.

I'm at wits end. I feel it's hopeless. Maybe the NT OSs just are not
made for dialup internet. I really have no clue what to do anymore,
other than just stick with Win98. About the only thought I have, is to
network the XP computer to my Win98 computer, and use the 98 one to
connect, then use the XP machine to be able to use a newer browser. If
that will work, I;m not sure...

If anyone has any ideas, please post them, but I doubt too many of you
are using dialup anymore, so I may just be ****ed.... I really dont
have a clue what to try anymore. Ieven downloaded some software called
Modem Doctor, and nothing shows a problem, except it wont connect. On
top of that, I cant do the activation for XP, because that refuses to
connect to the MS 800 number. I'll have to do that by phone I guess...

 

[Bob F]

I can only get dialup internet where I live (rural area). Well, ok, I
could spend a fortune every month for satellite internet, but I cant
afford it.

Anyhow, I can connect just fine to the internet using Win98se. (I'm
using it now). I normally connect from 35K to 45K using a 56K modem.
(It's usually fastest late at night when others are not using it).

About 5 Years ago, I installed Win2000 on this same computer as a dual
boot OS. I have never been able to get a decent connection. I can
connect anywhere from 24K to 38K, but once connected, I cant get any
data transferred after a couple minutes. Just to open one mesage on
this newsgroup can take 5 minutes. I have tried over and over to get
Win2K to connect properly, and finally just gace up. I'm using the
same modem, same phone line, and same computer as Win98, except I'm
using Win2K.

Well, I just installed XP on another compurter as you have likely read
in my other posts. It's XP Home SP2, on a Compaq Presario 5400US
computer.

The computer came with a built in 56K PCTEL modem. I have the same
problem as I did using Win2K. I spend the last few days trying to
modify the settings, and reading websites about this. No Luck!!!!

I just physically removed that internal modem, and connected the same
modem I am using now, in Win98. (external modem). I installed all
the drivers, and connected. SAME SHIT! I am connecting at 38K, but
no data gets transferred, or very little. It took 12 minutesx just
to get a google start page to load.

I'm at wits end. I feel it's hopeless. Maybe the NT OSs just are not
made for dialup internet. I really have no clue what to do anymore,
other than just stick with Win98. About the only thought I have, is
to network the XP computer to my Win98 computer, and use the 98 one to
connect, then use the XP machine to be able to use a newer browser.
If that will work, I;m not sure...

If anyone has any ideas, please post them, but I doubt too many of you
are using dialup anymore, so I may just be ****ed.... I really dont
have a clue what to try anymore. Ieven downloaded some software
called Modem Doctor, and nothing shows a problem, except it wont
connect. On top of that, I cant do the activation for XP, because
that refuses to connect to the MS 800 number. I'll have to do that
by phone I guess...

I never had a problem with NT or W2000 with my old US Robotics Courier modem,
but I'm in the city. It's been awhile now. I chose to avoid "winmodems" that
required the processor to do a lot of the processing. My father had a long line,
and rarely got much better than 20-30kbps. If you picked up the phone and dialed
a digit so the line went silent and listened to the phone, you'd hear a whole
lot of noise and hum, which pretty much excludes higher speeds. He finally
signed up for DSL, which worked a whole lot better and was actually pretty
cheap.

 

[casey.o]

I never had a problem with NT or W2000 with my old US Robotics Courier modem,
but I'm in the city. It's been awhile now. I chose to avoid "winmodems" that
required the processor to do a lot of the processing. My father had a long line,
and rarely got much better than 20-30kbps. If you picked up the phone and dialed
a digit so the line went silent and listened to the phone, you'd hear a whole
lot of noise and hum, which pretty much excludes higher speeds. He finally
signed up for DSL, which worked a whole lot better and was actually pretty
cheap.

I dont think my external modem is a winmodem. It's a Creative Modem
Blaster V.92 DE5721. That is the same modem that works well on Win98.
The internal modem that /was/ in the computer (which I removed), was a
PCTEL brand. I dont know if thats a winmodem or not. Bot hworks just
as badly. There was also a network card in the computer, which just
seemed to complicate my attempts to setup the network settings. I just
removed that too.

I spent more time reading online about dialup problems. Seems that a
firewall can cause problems. I disabled that too (the one that comes
with XP). Still nothing works. I connect, but there is no
communication or data exchanged, seems it works for abotu one minute and
just dies. I left it connected and tried to open a simple webpage. It
remained connected for almost an hour, and during that time, about 500k
of data was exchanged but that web page never loaded entirely. Yet it
showed a 38.6 connection.

I'm currently connected at that same speeed using Win98 and it's working
fine. I normally get a faster connection but I connected during peak
usage hours. But right now, I could download a 1 meg wallpaper (for
example) in a few minutes. Or opwn a google start page in seconds.

Another thing I seems to keep reading in web articles, is to check the
TCP/IP settings. It's set to PPP. but when I get into the advanced
settings, I have no clue what to do....

 

[Paul]

I dont think my external modem is a winmodem. It's a Creative Modem
Blaster V.92 DE5721. That is the same modem that works well on Win98.
The internal modem that /was/ in the computer (which I removed), was a
PCTEL brand. I dont know if thats a winmodem or not. Bot hworks just
as badly. There was also a network card in the computer, which just
seemed to complicate my attempts to setup the network settings. I just
removed that too.

I spent more time reading online about dialup problems. Seems that a
firewall can cause problems. I disabled that too (the one that comes
with XP). Still nothing works. I connect, but there is no
communication or data exchanged, seems it works for abotu one minute and
just dies. I left it connected and tried to open a simple webpage. It
remained connected for almost an hour, and during that time, about 500k
of data was exchanged but that web page never loaded entirely. Yet it
showed a 38.6 connection.

I'm currently connected at that same speeed using Win98 and it's working
fine. I normally get a faster connection but I connected during peak
usage hours. But right now, I could download a 1 meg wallpaper (for
example) in a few minutes. Or opwn a google start page in seconds.

Another thing I seems to keep reading in web articles, is to check the
TCP/IP settings. It's set to PPP. but when I get into the advanced
settings, I have no clue what to do....

The dialing string could be different
between Win98 and WinXP. The dialing string
is crafted by the driver. When you own
a dialup modem, if you don't know what
the Hayes command set is (ATDT...) and
have the command manual for your modem,
you don't know what you're missing. I don't
know how many times I've had to debug modem
problems caused by stuff like that.

I'm less inclined to believe it has to do
with PPP. I have seen a crappy PPP implementation,
as a third-party application for a Macintosh years
ago, but that was it. The rest I've used were fine.

If you use the external modem with datapump, nothing
but pure decoded data comes out of that. Various kinds
of Winmodems, require digital signal processing (DSP)
code in the driver, which eats about 200MHz of your
1200MHz Tualatin processor.

Paul

 

[Paul]

I dont think my external modem is a winmodem. It's a Creative Modem
Blaster V.92 DE5721. That is the same modem that works well on Win98.
The internal modem that /was/ in the computer (which I removed), was a
PCTEL brand. I dont know if thats a winmodem or not. Bot hworks just
as badly. There was also a network card in the computer, which just
seemed to complicate my attempts to setup the network settings. I just
removed that too.

I spent more time reading online about dialup problems. Seems that a
firewall can cause problems. I disabled that too (the one that comes
with XP). Still nothing works. I connect, but there is no
communication or data exchanged, seems it works for abotu one minute and
just dies. I left it connected and tried to open a simple webpage. It
remained connected for almost an hour, and during that time, about 500k
of data was exchanged but that web page never loaded entirely. Yet it
showed a 38.6 connection.

I'm currently connected at that same speeed using Win98 and it's working
fine. I normally get a faster connection but I connected during peak
usage hours. But right now, I could download a 1 meg wallpaper (for
example) in a few minutes. Or opwn a google start page in seconds.

Another thing I seems to keep reading in web articles, is to check the
TCP/IP settings. It's set to PPP. but when I get into the advanced
settings, I have no clue what to do....

The dialup modem will start working on that machine, when
the correct dialing string is used. Win98 must be sending
something different than WinXP.

My USR external modem, doesn't have a modem driver, so I had to
use UNIMODEM (generic driver). The INIT (dialing) string can
be located by searching the registry using the "FriendlyName",
which in my case is the "U.S. Robotics 56K FAX EXT" string
as seen in Device Manager. There are several "ControlSets",
and this is only one of them. One is called CurrentControlSet
or similar. This string is probably also present in the
unimodem .inf file (used to install the modem, from the
built-in drivers in WinXP).

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Control\Class\{4D36E96D-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}\0000\Init

AT&F1E0Q0V1&C1&D2S0=0<cr>

&F1 = hardware flow control (RTS/CTS/DSR etc)
E0 = Echo off - "typing not sent to screen"
Q0 = Display Result Codes
V1 = Result codes displayed as text strings
&C1 = Raise Carrier Detect (CD) on cable
&D2 = Computer uses DTR to enable transmission
S0 = When set to zero, disabled Auto Answer

There's nothing in the string that affects negotiation.
But it's a generic modem driver, so it's easy to
understand why there are no "magic" things in there.

In this example doc, the "&Un" command can reduce the
line rate, preventing higher rates from being
negotiated. Some of the Hayes-style commands are
brand specific.

http://support.usr.com/support/3453b/3453b-crg/appd 2-alphabetic.html

You would go back to Windows 98 and see if that string
can be located. Then compare it to what WinXP is using.

This page suggests the default INIT string is in
the modem driver .inf file. That might be on the
install floppy in the box the modem came in.

http://www.56k.com/inits/infxtrct.shtml

In this example, they show an "Extra Settings", which
means you're not seeing the basic string, like in that
registry entry above. The Extra Setting would be applied
after the basic INIT string.

http://www.netfaqs.com/Windows/DUN/Win98/Modem/Settings/index.asp

http://www.netfaqs.com/Windows/DUN/Modems/WinXP/Settings/index.asp

The dialing sequence might be something like this...

AT&F1E0Q0V1&C1&D2S0=0<cr> <extra_settings_string> <DTxxxxxxxxx_phone_number>

so the modem driver appends all the various chunks of stuff until
it has a complete set of commands to initialize the modem and
start the call.

I've spent as much as an entire week fighting with modems.
When I wanted to dial up the modem pool at work, I eventually
borrowed a modem from the IT department and took it home,
just to debug whether it was my modem. Their modem worked.
That's when I learned that I needed to buy two modems,
a K56 and an X2, use one for FreeNet, and the other one
for work. I think a Livingston front end, really wanted
to talk to a K56, and the modem pool at work was X2.
The USR I've still got on my desk here, is X2. I no longer
have any dialup pools to connect to, as Freenet is
no longer free :-( There was a time, you could get
around an hour a day, guaranteed, on the Freenet dialup
pool.

I fix modem problems so seldom, I have to relearn the Hayes
command set all over again, each time I do this stuff. The first
step, is finding the manual with all the commands in it
(including the proprietary commands, where appropriate).

Paul

 

[Ken]

I dont think my external modem is a winmodem. It's a Creative Modem
Blaster V.92 DE5721. That is the same modem that works well on Win98.
The internal modem that /was/ in the computer (which I removed), was a
PCTEL brand. I dont know if thats a winmodem or not. Bot hworks just
as badly. There was also a network card in the computer, which just
seemed to complicate my attempts to setup the network settings. I just
removed that too.

I spent more time reading online about dialup problems. Seems that a
firewall can cause problems. I disabled that too (the one that comes
with XP). Still nothing works. I connect, but there is no
communication or data exchanged, seems it works for abotu one minute and
just dies. I left it connected and tried to open a simple webpage. It
remained connected for almost an hour, and during that time, about 500k
of data was exchanged but that web page never loaded entirely. Yet it
showed a 38.6 connection.

I'm currently connected at that same speeed using Win98 and it's working
fine. I normally get a faster connection but I connected during peak
usage hours. But right now, I could download a 1 meg wallpaper (for
example) in a few minutes. Or opwn a google start page in seconds.

Another thing I seems to keep reading in web articles, is to check the
TCP/IP settings. It's set to PPP. but when I get into the advanced
settings, I have no clue what to do....

Are you using the same anti virus program on the computers? It could be
that another program is affecting the download rather than the hardware
or OS.

 

[philo]

I can only get dialup internet where I live (rural area). Well, ok, I
could spend a fortune every month for satellite internet, but I cant
afford it.

Anyhow, I can connect just fine to the internet using Win98se. (I'm
using it now). I normally connect from 35K to 45K using a 56K modem.
(It's usually fastest late at night when others are not using it).

About 5 Years ago, I installed Win2000 on this same computer as a dual
boot OS. I have never been able to get a decent connection. I can
connect anywhere from 24K to 38K, but once connected, I cant get any
data transferred after a couple minutes. Just to open one mesage on
this newsgroup can take 5 minutes. I have tried over and over to get
Win2K to connect properly, and finally just gace up. I'm using the same
modem, same phone line, and same computer as Win98, except I'm using
Win2K.

Well, I just installed XP on another compurter as you have likely read
in my other posts. It's XP Home SP2, on a Compaq Presario 5400US
computer.

The computer came with a built in 56K PCTEL modem. I have the same
problem as I did using Win2K. I spend the last few days trying to
modify the settings, and reading websites about this. No Luck!!!!

I just physically removed that internal modem, and connected the same
modem I am using now, in Win98. (external modem). I installed all the
drivers, and connected. SAME SHIT! I am connecting at 38K, but no data
gets transferred, or very little. It took 12 minutesx just to get a
google start page to load.

I'm at wits end. I feel it's hopeless. Maybe the NT OSs just are not
made for dialup internet. I really have no clue what to do anymore,
other than just stick with Win98. About the only thought I have, is to
network the XP computer to my Win98 computer, and use the 98 one to
connect, then use the XP machine to be able to use a newer browser. If
that will work, I;m not sure...

If anyone has any ideas, please post them, but I doubt too many of you
are using dialup anymore, so I may just be ****ed.... I really dont
have a clue what to try anymore. Ieven downloaded some software called
Modem Doctor, and nothing shows a problem, except it wont connect. On
top of that, I cant do the activation for XP, because that refuses to
connect to the MS 800 number. I'll have to do that by phone I guess...

Back in the days of dial-up I did notice that same problem occasionally.


With Win2k or XP some of the Win-modems just did not work right.

If you get a real hardware modem it's almost a guarantee that it will
work. My advice would be to get an external serial modem.
They will work with any operating system.

There are plenty on ebay in the $15 range.

 

[Ben Myers]

I can only get dialup internet where I live (rural area). Well, ok, I
could spend a fortune every month for satellite internet, but I cant
afford it.
Anyhow, I can connect just fine to the internet using Win98se. (I'm
using it now). I normally connect from 35K to 45K using a 56K modem.
(It's usually fastest late at night when others are not using it).
About 5 Years ago, I installed Win2000 on this same computer as a dual
boot OS. I have never been able to get a decent connection. I can
connect anywhere from 24K to 38K, but once connected, I cant get any
data transferred after a couple minutes. Just to open one mesage on
this newsgroup can take 5 minutes. I have tried over and over to get
Win2K to connect properly, and finally just gace up. I'm using the same
modem, same phone line, and same computer as Win98, except I'm using
Win2K.
Well, I just installed XP on another compurter as you have likely read
in my other posts. It's XP Home SP2, on a Compaq Presario 5400US
computer.
The computer came with a built in 56K PCTEL modem. I have the same
problem as I did using Win2K. I spend the last few days trying to
modify the settings, and reading websites about this. No Luck!!!!

<snip>

Go to "Control Panel", "Automatic Updates" and see if "Turn off automatic updates" is
selected. If not, select it and click "OK". You also may have to use task manager to see
if an update is currently being downloaded. Wuauserv, I think. Automatic updates can
easily tie up a dialup connection to the point of being almost unusable for anything else.

Ben

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>,

I dont think my external modem is a winmodem. It's a Creative Modem

If by "external" you mean you connect to it via a serial port, then no
it isn't.
[]

PCTEL brand. I dont know if thats a winmodem or not. Bot hworks just
as badly. There was also a network card in the computer, which just

If both work as badly, then your problem isn't one being a WinMoDem (if
it is).
[]
I'm afraid I can't help you, but I can tell you that dialup works with
XP and later: I know someone with a Vista laptop who until this year was
using dialup, with no problems (at least, no problems with the dialup;
he couldn't get on with Windows Mail after happily using Outlook Express
on '98SElite; he's managing OK with Thunderbird now, but that was done
at the same time as going to broadband, so that made things easier
anyway).

 

[Bob F]

Go to "Control Panel", "Automatic Updates" and see if "Turn off
automatic updates" is
selected. If not, select it and click "OK". You also may have to
use task manager to see
if an update is currently being downloaded. Wuauserv, I think.
Automatic updates can
easily tie up a dialup connection to the point of being almost
unusable for anything else.

Good point.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Go to "Control Panel", "Automatic Updates" and see if "Turn off
automatic updates" is
selected. If not, select it and click "OK". You also may have to
use task manager to see
if an update is currently being downloaded. Wuauserv, I think.
Automatic updates can
easily tie up a dialup connection to the point of being almost
unusable for anything else.

Good point.
[/QUOTE]
They can make a broadband machine look sluggish too! First time my
friend's Vista machine was connected to his new broadband, it was so
unresponsive - not so much the connection, the whole machine - that I
thought oh dear, if it carries on like this he'll lose interest. It was
only when we closed down at the end of the day and it said it was
installing fiftysomething upgrades that I realised what was going on.

I'm not sure why it hadn't tried to download them when connected by
dialup: maybe it had some way of detecting it was hopeless to do so. (Or
maybe not: I do remember it wasn't that well-behaved on dialup.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

`A device called a transistor, which has several applications in radio where a
vacuum tube ordinarily is employed, was demonstrated yesterday.' - small
article
on an inside page of The New York Times, December 1947 (Computing 1999-12-16)

 

[Bob F]

Go to "Control Panel", "Automatic Updates" and see if "Turn off
automatic updates" is
selected. If not, select it and click "OK". You also may have to
use task manager to see
if an update is currently being downloaded. Wuauserv, I think.
Automatic updates can
easily tie up a dialup connection to the point of being almost
unusable for anything else.

Good point.

They can make a broadband machine look sluggish too! First time my
friend's Vista machine was connected to his new broadband, it was so
unresponsive - not so much the connection, the whole machine - that I
thought oh dear, if it carries on like this he'll lose interest. It
was only when we closed down at the end of the day and it said it was
installing fiftysomething upgrades that I realised what was going on.

I'm not sure why it hadn't tried to download them when connected by
dialup: maybe it had some way of detecting it was hopeless to do so.
(Or maybe not: I do remember it wasn't that well-behaved on dialup.)[/QUOTE]

One of the several reasons I always turn off automatic updates.

 

[micky]

I dont think my external modem is a winmodem. It's a Creative Modem
Blaster V.92 DE5721.

I don't think any external modem is a winmodem or can be. External, as
you know, is one which is one that's in its own box outside the
computer's box, as this one is,

 

[Paul]

I don't think any external modem is a winmodem or can be. External, as
you know, is one which is one that's in its own box outside the
computer's box, as this one is,

This question was tougher than I thought.

An easy answer, is the USB modems. I know some of those are
"soft", so just a matter of looking them up until I find an
example.

To pick an example, I selected a USB dialup modem from Startech.
Because I know Startech like to name the chip inside, making it
easier for me to confirm.

"USB56KEM3 Modem"
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16825189003

Startech says it uses LSI/Agere - SV92U2C.

http://www.lsi.com/downloads/Public/PC Modems/SV92U2/LSI_SV92U2_PB_041008.pdf

Now, that datasheet says "soft modem", meaning the DSP is done
by the host CPU. So that just digitizes the line, and carts
the voice band samples over to the computer.

*******

I found another doc, selected because I know US Robotics makes
at least some modems with datapumps. This fact sheet describes
three kinds of modems, whereas I thought there were only two.
I had always thought WinModem = Soft Modem, but it looks like
I was wrong. I can't imagine why someone would make a design
with just a datapump, as the controller should be a dead-easy add-on.

http://www.techdata.com/(S(pyvf5w55wdkw0h45ncqcvz45))/usrobotics/files/modem-matrix-2page-TD-11.pdf

"Modem types

Soft Modem - "GOOD"

All processing is done by the computer and
the modem is an interface to plug the
phone jack into (aka Data Access Arrangement)

Win Modem - "BETTER"
Has a Data Pump Unit and a Data Access Arrangement
but no controller onboard. Used with Windows based computers.

Controller Modem - "BEST"
Has all three major components for a modem on board -
Controller / Data Pump / Data Access Arrangement
"

All of their RS232 "box" modems are controller ones.
So I wasn't going to get an easy counter-example there.

*******

This device is not on the US Robotics summary sheet.
The USR5637 here is labeled as "High Performance".

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16825104006

As usual, I have to go to the USR site, to find a
keyword I can use. This one says Controller. So now
we have both types of modems available as USB ones.
I had a hunch this one had a controller, as the price
is a couple times higher.

"56K USB Controller Dial-up External Faxmodem with Voice"
http://support.usr.com/products/modem/modem-product.asp?sku=USR5637

So that one has a datapump. And the weird part is, the Newegg
reviewers say only one will work per computer. Unlike regular
modems, their software doesn't seem to allow handling
multiple phone lines. Even though the device is autonomous,
they managed to bungle things such that only one of them
work per computer.

*******

I think there is enough bandwidth on an RS232 cable,
to actually do a soft modem over RS232. If we digitize the
~4KHz passband of the phone line, that would require an
8KHz sample rate to meet Nyquist. If we collected 8KHz of
8 bit samples, that would be 64Kbit/sec. Doing some sloppy
coding on the RS232 line (start and a couple stop bits),
the data rate would be 64K * 11/8 = 88Kbit. And that
would fit in 115Kbit/sec full duplex (so we could do
voice samples in both directions). The 115K rate should be
relatively easy for most computers (with sufficient buffering
in the UART). Doing 230Kbit/sec, there might be a few
older computer RS232 ports that don't work so well.

Now, that being said, I can't find any soft modems with
RS232 interfaces. Maybe they existed at one time, but
I can't find one at the moment. Using the search engine,
and using a few "minus" terms, I was getting mostly
noise for search results.

Summary of external modems I found:

USB external with data pump
USB external without data pump
RS232 external with data pump

I can't find any that look like this, that are "soft modems".
Any I find in this form factor, are listed as "Controller".

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/25-104-011-V01?$S640$

HTH,
Paul

 

[philo]

<snip>


hey I just came across a serial external modem today


if you want it i can mail it to you

(postage only assuming USA)



gmail addy philo565

 

[Nil]

hey I just came across a serial external modem today


if you want it i can mail it to you

(postage only assuming USA)

I threw away two of them about a month ago! I checked on craigslist and
ebay and it seemed that they weren't selling for mere pennies, if at
all, so I decided they weren't worth the time and effort to sell.

 

[Paul]

I threw away two of them about a month ago! I checked on craigslist and
ebay and it seemed that they weren't selling for mere pennies, if at
all, so I decided they weren't worth the time and effort to sell.

After the Apocalypse, we'll all be back on dialup...
and then you'll be sorry you did that

Paul

 

[Nil]

After the Apocalypse, we'll all be back on dialup...
and then you'll be sorry you did that

I threw away two, but I kept one!