Starts only with floppy disk

R

Reima

I have a new problem, xp-home is asking for a bootable disk at start up.
When I use a floppy that has Ntldr. boot.ini and Ndetect.com on it,
everything works OK.
I can see them in the C: root directory too after she starts, so no need to
copy them over, but it can apparently not read the hard drive at start up.
I have put the hard drive to start first in the bios as well, but it does
not seem to help.

This all started when it refused to read my Sony camera file, it is a
USB-hook-up.
I then went to bios and chose my other HDD to start from, it is a ghost copy
of my usual one, I could not get there either.
So changed back to my old HDD, well it works but only by the floppy disk.
Has somebody any ideas?
Regards, Reima
 
J

John John

Use the Disk Management tool and look at the drive where ntldr,
ntdetect.com and boot.ini are located. Is it showing as the System
partition? If not right click on it and mark it as "Active".

In the BIOS make sure that USB devices are not set to boot before the
hard drive, the BIOS might think that the camera is a bootable USB device.

John
 
R

Reima

It shows up as Healthy ("Boot") Primary partition, the other disk is the
active one, and also a Primary Partition. Both of them have
ntldr,ndetect.com and boot.ini in their root folder.
The HDD is the first choice for booting in BIOS.
 
J

John John

The partition that you boot from and that contains the files ntldr,
ntdetect.com and boot.ini needs to be shown as "Healthy (System)". If
it is not right click on it and select the option to make it active.

There is often a bit of confusion about this with NT operating systems,
the terminology is not very intuitive. The "System" partition is the
one that contains the above mentioned files, it is the partition on
which the system boots. The "Boot" partition contains the Windows
folder and the supporting files (the System32 folder). Microsoft
defines it as such:

*System Partition*

The system partition refers to the disk volume that contains the
hardware-specific files that are needed to start Windows, such as Ntldr,
Boot.ini, and Ntdetect.com. The system partition can be, but does not
have to be, the same volume as the boot partition.


*Boot Partition*

The boot partition contains the Windows operating system and its support
files. The boot partition can be, but does not have to be, the same as
the system partition. There will be one, and only one, system partition,
but there will be one boot partition for each operating system in a
multi-boot system.

Definition of System and Boot Partition
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/100525

Definitions for system volume and boot volume
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314470

John
 
R

Reima

Aha! John, that done it.
When I marked that Boot Partition as Active it changed over to Healthy
System, first I did not understand what you meant, seeing that all I could
see was Boot and Active.

Now to the cause, what could have changed it to boot partition?
Now there is not any Boot Partitions at all.
The other disk is Active and this one is System.
Will it change over again if I try to start with the other disk by changing
in BIOS?
I thought that if I have the same system on 2 different disk's, then if one
died I would be able to access all the recent files by running it and using
Ghost images that I save there about once a month.

Regards,
Reima
 
J

John John

See in-line replies:
Aha! John, that done it.
When I marked that Boot Partition as Active it changed over to Healthy
System, first I did not understand what you meant, seeing that all I could
see was Boot and Active.

Now to the cause, what could have changed it to boot partition?

I'm not sure what caused the partition active flag to be changed, it
could be something to with the disk cloning and the attempted booting of
the cloned drive.

Now there is not any Boot Partitions at all.
The other disk is Active and this one is System.

That is normal if the boot and system partitions are on the same drive.
Remember parts of the earlier definition:

"The system partition can be, but does not have to be, the same volume
as the boot partition."

When the System partition and boot volume are one and the same you won't
see any label for the Boot volume, you will only see the System label to
describe the partition.

Will it change over again if I try to start with the other disk by changing
in BIOS?

The label(s) for the partitions will change depending on which hard disk
is booted, but the active status of the partitions will not. When the
disks are set up independently from each other they will boot to
different System partitions. When you boot the second disk it will
become the System partition and the partition on the first disk will in
its turn simply be labeled as the Active partition. The System and Boot
labels are not persistent, they are applied to the partitions that are
actually used to boot the operating system. Once booted, as far as
Windows is concerned, the other disks which were not used to boot the
operating systems are simple data disks, even if they contain an
operating system and boot files, to Windows they are neither System nor
Boot partitions or volumes, they are just data disks. On independent
drives with completely independent NT operating systems the partition
hosting ntldr, ntdetect.com and boot.ini must be the Active partition.

I thought that if I have the same system on 2 different disk's, then if one
died I would be able to access all the recent files by running it and using
Ghost images that I save there about once a month.

That is a fairly good way of doing it. It is not 100% failsafe, if
lightning hits and completely fries the computer both drives could be
lost, or a nasty virus could wreak havoc on both drives. For that
reason some folks prefer external storage media for the user data. I
think the plan you have is a fairly good arrangement, while not 100%
failsafe, it is unlikely that you will lose both disks at once.

One thing that is important to remember when you clone a hard disk and
attempt to boot it is that the first time the clone is booted the parent
drive should not be visible to the cloned disk. It should be disabled
in the BIOS or the power/data cable to it should be disconnected. After
the cloned drive has been successfully booted once you can then
reconnect or enable the parent hard disk for subsequent boots. If you
don't take this precaution (or take other alternative measures) the
Mount Manager's assignment of drive letters may not correspond to
Windows installed drive letter in the registry and the clone may not
successfully boot. After the first boot, and when both drives are once
again connected, you should be able to boot to one drive or the other by
toggling them in the BIOS boot order.

John
 
R

Reima

Now that is right on the nail, I was wondering why it used to work before
and that is probably cause I had just installed the other drive and it might
not have been enabled on the first boot, ( I am 69 and my memory does not
serve me that well anymore)
Right so I unable the normal drive for a bit and change the start for the
other and that should do it? But last time I tried it, without taking this
drive out ( they are both SATA drives, so it is easy to just pull a cable),
it did not load explorer so no nothing on the desktop except picture of my
dog. Maybe I should clone it again?, before I try your excellent idea.
Did spend 3 hours on baking it up and integrity checking on DVD's, 3 of
them.
Who knows they might even work.
Regards,
Reima
 
J

John John

Instead of cloning the drive again you can try this:

1- Disconnect the parent drive.

2- Use a Windows 98 boot diskette and use fdisk /mbr on the cloned drive.

Fdisk /mbr will leave the partition table intact but it will rewrite the
disk signature and when you boot the drive the Mount Manager should
assign a new drive letter to the disk when Windows is rebooted. Being
that the parent drive will be absent the disk signature and letters
assigned to that disk will be invalid so the Mount Manager will use the
now available letter C:\ to assign to what it thinks is a new disk. If
you don't have a Windows 98 boot diskette you can get one at
bootdisk.com. If using fdisk /mbr doesn't work post again, there is one
more thing that could be tried before you reclone the drive.

John
 
R

Reima

Beautiful John, it is sometimes nice to soar with eagles, this turkey has
grown some wings....
I am in your debt now, name your gift.
I am writing this on the other drive as system drive.
Changing to the other drive in BIOS brings up a copy of this one on the
other drive.

PS. if I may ask, what other thing were you thinking off?


Regards,
Reima
 
J

John John

You're welcome, thank you for the compliment. The other thing I was
thinking of was to remotely edit the registry on the cloned drive and
switch the Mount Manager's database of drive letter assignements C:\ and D:\

The persistent drive letter assignement is held in the registry at:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices


I posted the instructions on how to change the MountedDevices to another
person a few days ago, here is a copy of the instructions: (Also see the
following Microsoft article: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/223188/ )

Lets assume that you have two disks with respective partitions C & D,
and that the original Windows installation is on C and that D is the clone.

Boot to the original Windows installation on C and start Regedit. Use
the Load Hive feature to load the System hive of the cloned installation
(on D). The hive will be in D:\WINDOWS\system32\config and it is the
hive named "system", without any extensions.

Navigate to: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices

You will see a \DosDevice\ value for each drive (partition), one being
C: and the other D:

Rename the Value Name: \DosDevices\C: to another unused name, lets say
\DosDevices\X:

Rename the Value Name: \DosDevices\D: to \DosDevices\C:

Now rename the original \DosDevices\C: (now named \DosDevices\X:), to
\DosDevices\D:

Unload the hive and exit Regedit. Try to boot the second (cloned)
installation and see what happens.

*DO NOT* change the MountedDevices values of the original Windows
installation! Only change the values in the registry hive of the cloned
installation. Easy instructions on how to load remote registry hives is
shown here: http://www.rwin.ch/xp-live/regedit.htm


John
 
R

Reima

Great tip, my turkey fathers are growing, I'll be soaring soon, nice to have
you there John.
 

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