Solved? Audio Quality & Update

[Anthony]

Folks,

Phil was quite right that the audio degrades when saving
to "high quality" WMA. Should we, enjoying such "pro
qualities", be surprised?
....or Broadband which gives even lower rates....Though
quite a bit higher than I'm used to.....My fault,
sorry....Give the starved a cracker.....

Since the general work-around for The Problem was
reproduceable but found to be aurally challenged, I've
been doing some checking to see why it was I was able to
render the original second track audio to a presumably and
potentially better video format; Something I have not been
able to do since then....And despite my apparently flawed
theory that video stays with the audio moved to the second
track and that was important.

So was finding the work-around Technique
surprise? ...Fluke? A whale of a tale? .... Or just Dumb-
Mouse-Click'n luck?

.....Well maybe, until today.
The PCM is Micro-soft-Feecadoo theory is still good.

It appears a Title animation with overlay was included in
my first _audio save version which caused the "program
name"_audio movie to provide video format save selections
to .WMV, instead of purely audio, .WMA.

I inadvertently allowed the Overlay to remain in that
track near the end of the project...Inspiration being Time
[line] blind, ....details...Geez.

Since not every project would benefit from a spinning
newspaper but might benefit from choosing to save in
differing rates a video format MIGHT offer, I checked for
other Title animations that might be used instead to give
the same video choice access, if your project has no
overlay Titles and defaults to Audio format only.

The most generally suitable Title may be the "Subtitle
subtitle at bottom {overlay}".

I always place a 5 second black at the beginning and end
of my programs. If you do that, placing a 1.5 second
overlay with any text at the the beginning won't be seen
anyway.....[Camera roll-up-record delay. The real reason
for the 5 sec. Microsoft countdowns? Make them 10 please,
pro-like...With tone..And with 5 sec. Black roll-up,
Thanks.]

I think you might find this Subtitle a potentially
interesting additional benefit placed at the end of a
project...Considering the fonts can be transparentized.
But, we are using it here to "trick" the program into
giving us, hopefully, a choice for a less compressed
Clear/Clean Render of the audio track.

If you are interested to add this capability to the
Technique working around The Problem, no matter which
placement appeals to you, after deleting the video
portion just add the Title Subtitle or other "overlay"
animation from the menu to teh overlay track, SAVE, then
render to an audio movie version, but, you'll be able to
choose from a video format instead of an audio rate... I
don't recommend DV at this point in the process.

I have been checking some of the video choices, and the
best at this moment, for Me as heard through Preview,
seems to be the 2.1Mbps NTSC which gave MM2 file
Properties @ 160 kbps for the audio portion...Although the
rates were certainly higher in Properties box for the clip
itself. And different depending upon which Properties box
I looked at being higher than 2Kk in Media Player....Does
MM2 have an audio rate governor limit we are not told of?

I tried saving in DV-AVI to the computer but did not get
usable results which rendered only the overlay portion.

So far the "Video for local playback NTSC (2.1 mbps)"
gives the best numbers and I believe I hear less
compression degradation, through Preview.
But those of you with better than bitty headphones should
be able to tell any falliacy to this or possibly find
better.

Taking the conservative route, and though Media Player
suggest 2Kk bit rate of the 2.1m video choice, the best we
may do to the computer through MM2 is 160 kbps whether in
audio mode or video. Hopefully, to tape rendering will use
the higher rates available.

Just Reviewed the tape. Rendered from the file with the
2.1Mbps format and it sounds pretty good. Can even make
out the surf tumbling gravel on the beach. Not sure what
it sounds like with an orchestra. Don't have that music.
However, the costumary broadband compression characterstic
is noticable absent or reduced.

I'm thinking, in the future, I'll be putting the overlay
in (when none is planned) and going for 2.1mbps NTSC
choice, instead of Broadband or otherwise until someone
declares a better quality process....

......Or when Hell freezes over and Microsoft ends this
torture.

Hell is in Montana, right?
And it's Winter!

D.A.R.E. to hold out hope?!?

Anthony.

 

[Gareth Howell [MSFT]]

Hey Anothny,

Phew - there's a lot of detail in your post. Let me try and answer some
questions I see in your post:
1. Does saving to DV-AVI / back to tape save with good audio quality?
Yes - when saving back to tape Movie Maker first saves to DV-AVI. The audio
stream in DV-AVI is uncompressed 16-bit PCM audio.

Movie Maker was created for consumers, and we've found that most people
can't distinguish quality differences between 128Kbps and 160Kbps audio, but
it sounds like you'd like a higher bitrate than this. In Movie Maker we
allow you to create a custom profile using the Windows Media Encoder (see:
http://www.microsoft.com/WindowsXP/moviemaker/expert/customprofile.asp for
more info). This will allow you to create a profile that has an audio
stream up to 320Kbps

Thanks for the suggestion of camera roll up delay, that sounds like a good
feature, we'll investigate this.

It seems as though the audio formats you're getting when you save just the
audio is different from when you're adding the title. Can you give me a bit
more detail here? In MM2 the highest audio bitrate either when saving video
or audio is 160Kbps. (As you mention, saving to DV-AVI will give you better
quality, and this is only available when saving video).

When checking audio quality, you want to make sure that you listen after
saving the movie - this will let you hear any compression artifacts that may
not be present during preview (you may be previewing a less compressed
source, which will lose quality when saved).

If you're looking for the absoloute best quality without regard to disk
space, I recommend using DV-AVI for both capture and save. The files are
huge (13GB for an hour), but you shouldn't hear any compression artifacts.

Cheers
Gareth
--
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Folks,

Phil was quite right that the audio degrades when saving
to "high quality" WMA. Should we, enjoying such "pro
qualities", be surprised?
...or Broadband which gives even lower rates....Though
quite a bit higher than I'm used to.....My fault,
sorry....Give the starved a cracker.....

Since the general work-around for The Problem was
reproduceable but found to be aurally challenged, I've
been doing some checking to see why it was I was able to
render the original second track audio to a presumably and
potentially better video format; Something I have not been
able to do since then....And despite my apparently flawed
theory that video stays with the audio moved to the second
track and that was important.

So was finding the work-around Technique
surprise? ...Fluke? A whale of a tale? .... Or just Dumb-
Mouse-Click'n luck?

....Well maybe, until today.
The PCM is Micro-soft-Feecadoo theory is still good.

It appears a Title animation with overlay was included in
my first _audio save version which caused the "program
name"_audio movie to provide video format save selections
to .WMV, instead of purely audio, .WMA.

I inadvertently allowed the Overlay to remain in that
track near the end of the project...Inspiration being Time
[line] blind, ....details...Geez.

Since not every project would benefit from a spinning
newspaper but might benefit from choosing to save in
differing rates a video format MIGHT offer, I checked for
other Title animations that might be used instead to give
the same video choice access, if your project has no
overlay Titles and defaults to Audio format only.

The most generally suitable Title may be the "Subtitle
subtitle at bottom {overlay}".

I always place a 5 second black at the beginning and end
of my programs. If you do that, placing a 1.5 second
overlay with any text at the the beginning won't be seen
anyway.....[Camera roll-up-record delay. The real reason
for the 5 sec. Microsoft countdowns? Make them 10 please,
pro-like...With tone..And with 5 sec. Black roll-up,
Thanks.]

I think you might find this Subtitle a potentially
interesting additional benefit placed at the end of a
project...Considering the fonts can be transparentized.
But, we are using it here to "trick" the program into
giving us, hopefully, a choice for a less compressed
Clear/Clean Render of the audio track.

If you are interested to add this capability to the
Technique working around The Problem, no matter which
placement appeals to you, after deleting the video
portion just add the Title Subtitle or other "overlay"
animation from the menu to teh overlay track, SAVE, then
render to an audio movie version, but, you'll be able to
choose from a video format instead of an audio rate... I
don't recommend DV at this point in the process.

I have been checking some of the video choices, and the
best at this moment, for Me as heard through Preview,
seems to be the 2.1Mbps NTSC which gave MM2 file
Properties @ 160 kbps for the audio portion...Although the
rates were certainly higher in Properties box for the clip
itself. And different depending upon which Properties box
I looked at being higher than 2Kk in Media Player....Does
MM2 have an audio rate governor limit we are not told of?

I tried saving in DV-AVI to the computer but did not get
usable results which rendered only the overlay portion.

So far the "Video for local playback NTSC (2.1 mbps)"
gives the best numbers and I believe I hear less
compression degradation, through Preview.
But those of you with better than bitty headphones should
be able to tell any falliacy to this or possibly find
better.

Taking the conservative route, and though Media Player
suggest 2Kk bit rate of the 2.1m video choice, the best we
may do to the computer through MM2 is 160 kbps whether in
audio mode or video. Hopefully, to tape rendering will use
the higher rates available.

Just Reviewed the tape. Rendered from the file with the
2.1Mbps format and it sounds pretty good. Can even make
out the surf tumbling gravel on the beach. Not sure what
it sounds like with an orchestra. Don't have that music.
However, the costumary broadband compression characterstic
is noticable absent or reduced.

I'm thinking, in the future, I'll be putting the overlay
in (when none is planned) and going for 2.1mbps NTSC
choice, instead of Broadband or otherwise until someone
declares a better quality process....

.....Or when Hell freezes over and Microsoft ends this
torture.

Hell is in Montana, right?
And it's Winter!

D.A.R.E. to hold out hope?!?

Anthony.