Solved? Audio @ Trans Problem

[Anthony]

Folks,

Just made a partial break-through with my/our? audio
dropout at Transition on tape and Preview, stall, hang
problem.
Note:
I did not have a beep problem during transition, so I
don't know if this will help that, though the applicable
theory suggests it might.

I am no "expert" in this, however, based upon some
observations I've made trying to fix this, and please
excuse any incorrect Lingo, it appears Microsoft's PCM
Converter has trouble working with coincident varied bit
rates and/or varied sample rates...and not necessarily,
{though it still could be}, different file types or rates
that are too low. This might answer why an otherwise good
quality file might not work.

The PCM converter appears to "like" it if these rates are
consistent {mathematically relevent?] from clip to
clip....especially disliking variations placed in the
second audio track, or as differentiated between the
extremely fast DV capture rate and the much lower Audio
rates in the respective tracks.

Here's what I did to solve {grunge through}, most of the
problems I've had [at least for tonight], though some
remain. It's a lot more work than we should need to do but
it seems this works none-the-less...and where Micro-seems-
soft to lend a hand to uphold "pro" {adequate} quality.

Please excuse any omissions in the following steps, its
early:

I took a "finished" heavily editted project exhibiting The
Problem, the video/audio, 16 bit, of which was captured
from a Mini-DV camera, all other audio and video was
gotten from Microsoft downloads, and made a few extra
versions of the project as described below for purposes of
a "clean" compilation.

With the original "finished" Project open I did SAVE AS,
{"project name"_audio}, Then selected all video, DELETE.
SAVE.
What you have saved is the audio in the second audio track
AS IT IS SYNCRONIZED TO THE VIDEO {important for later}.
Save/render that as a Movie, same name, under the 340 kbps
video for Broadband selection to the computer. I tried
this rate only because of some things I've been noticing.
Remember here, were not interested in the video rate for
any attached video anyway. Others selections might work.
The theory requires that we convert all the individually
rated audio clips to something the MM2 Converter
understands without taxing it too much, {i.e., during
video/audio transition} yet and with sufficient quality so
it doesn't distort the sound by compression.

Reopen the original project file. SAVE AS, {"project
name"_video}. Delete the entire Second Audio track, SAVE.
[This is where I found the Preview starts to work
smoothly. [After taking out the second audio track, the
same as disabling the PCM Converter.] Make a DV-AVI Movie
file saved, same name, to the computer.

Open a new project. Import these two new files into
Collections, uncheck the box, create clips, (you want each
entire "movie" in one piece), then select and place that
Video "Collection" on the Timeline. Then select and place
the Audio "Collection" in the second audio/music line.
These should synchronize as in the Original.

Save "project name"_clean, then Render this a Movie to DV-
AVI camera/tape.

My finished Mini-DV taped project was in deed
finished...Mostly. Mostly more than before. Instead of
audio dropouts at every transition, I had only one dropout
and a couple pops which I will now turn my attention to
resolve.....or not...What's one dropout and some pops
between friends.



Oh, and the blurred slow motion movement cleared up too!
That indicates a Microsoft CODEC problem but not as
conflict.

There may be more efficient ways to do this work-around.
This was my first attempt, and success, despite all the
other ideas flying about. I made extra project name
versions only to keep track of the progress as I am
finding it harder and harder to keep track of what
territory I have and have not covered in resolving these
issues...shame on Microsoft to put us through this.

This work-around is absolutely unsatisfactory and time-
consuming for a product claiming to have us make movies
like a pro, but despite all that, I Hope this helps y'all
with an annoying inexcusable Problem on an otherwise
impressive program.

Merry Christmas.

 

[PapaJohn]

Thanks. I hung your Christmas present on top of the Post tree on the Problem
Solving... Audio Issues page of my website.
--
PapaJohn
www.papajohn.org

Folks,

Just made a partial break-through with my/our? audio
dropout at Transition on tape and Preview, stall, hang
problem.
Note:
I did not have a beep problem during transition, so I
don't know if this will help that, though the applicable
theory suggests it might.

I am no "expert" in this, however, based upon some
observations I've made trying to fix this, and please
excuse any incorrect Lingo, it appears Microsoft's PCM
Converter has trouble working with coincident varied bit
rates and/or varied sample rates...and not necessarily,
{though it still could be}, different file types or rates
that are too low. This might answer why an otherwise good
quality file might not work.

The PCM converter appears to "like" it if these rates are
consistent {mathematically relevent?] from clip to
clip....especially disliking variations placed in the
second audio track, or as differentiated between the
extremely fast DV capture rate and the much lower Audio
rates in the respective tracks.

Here's what I did to solve {grunge through}, most of the
problems I've had [at least for tonight], though some
remain. It's a lot more work than we should need to do but
it seems this works none-the-less...and where Micro-seems-
soft to lend a hand to uphold "pro" {adequate} quality.

Please excuse any omissions in the following steps, its
early:

I took a "finished" heavily editted project exhibiting The
Problem, the video/audio, 16 bit, of which was captured
from a Mini-DV camera, all other audio and video was
gotten from Microsoft downloads, and made a few extra
versions of the project as described below for purposes of
a "clean" compilation.

With the original "finished" Project open I did SAVE AS,
{"project name"_audio}, Then selected all video, DELETE.
SAVE.
What you have saved is the audio in the second audio track
AS IT IS SYNCRONIZED TO THE VIDEO {important for later}.
Save/render that as a Movie, same name, under the 340 kbps
video for Broadband selection to the computer. I tried
this rate only because of some things I've been noticing.
Remember here, were not interested in the video rate for
any attached video anyway. Others selections might work.
The theory requires that we convert all the individually
rated audio clips to something the MM2 Converter
understands without taxing it too much, {i.e., during
video/audio transition} yet and with sufficient quality so
it doesn't distort the sound by compression.

Reopen the original project file. SAVE AS, {"project
name"_video}. Delete the entire Second Audio track, SAVE.
[This is where I found the Preview starts to work
smoothly. [After taking out the second audio track, the
same as disabling the PCM Converter.] Make a DV-AVI Movie
file saved, same name, to the computer.

Open a new project. Import these two new files into
Collections, uncheck the box, create clips, (you want each
entire "movie" in one piece), then select and place that
Video "Collection" on the Timeline. Then select and place
the Audio "Collection" in the second audio/music line.
These should synchronize as in the Original.

Save "project name"_clean, then Render this a Movie to DV-
AVI camera/tape.

My finished Mini-DV taped project was in deed
finished...Mostly. Mostly more than before. Instead of
audio dropouts at every transition, I had only one dropout
and a couple pops which I will now turn my attention to
resolve.....or not...What's one dropout and some pops
between friends.



Oh, and the blurred slow motion movement cleared up too!
That indicates a Microsoft CODEC problem but not as
conflict.

There may be more efficient ways to do this work-around.
This was my first attempt, and success, despite all the
other ideas flying about. I made extra project name
versions only to keep track of the progress as I am
finding it harder and harder to keep track of what
territory I have and have not covered in resolving these
issues...shame on Microsoft to put us through this.

This work-around is absolutely unsatisfactory and time-
consuming for a product claiming to have us make movies
like a pro, but despite all that, I Hope this helps y'all
with an annoying inexcusable Problem on an otherwise
impressive program.

Merry Christmas.

 

[Phil Kopp]

This is a logical and excellent work-around for the dreaded audio problem.
It makes sense that if somehow the transitions are causing the problem then
a solution is to 'prerender' the video track so that the transitions aren't
there any more.

I tried it and had about the same results. On a short 15 second clip with
lots of transitions, it was very good. I think the overall audio quality was
down from the original, but there weren't any obvious pops or glitches. I
doubt another listener would have recognized the deteriorated audio quality.

On a longer clip of about two minutes, there were a couple of pops, but very
quick and not detracting from the result. Still, I would like to not have
any extra effects. Audio quality about the same as the short clip, generally
lesser than the original, but I'm sitting here listening to them one after
another, so I hear it. You probably wouldn't unless you were very familiar
with the song.

One question: You say: 'Save/render that as a Movie, same name, under the
340 kbps
video for Broadband selection to the computer.'

When I 'Save Movie File...' with only an audio track, I only get 8 audio
choices; 8, 16, 32, 64, 96, 128, 160Kbps, and 'High Quality Audio', bit rate
unspecified. I always choose that one assuming it's the best, since it's at
the top of the list. When played back in Media Player, it shows as a 154Kbps
variable rate. I don't get any other choices but these. I have deleted all
the video, leaving just the secondary audio track. Am I missing something?
Or have you installed Media Encoder or some other software that allows this
choice?

Thanks for your research. I hope we are getting closer to a solution.

--
Phil

Folks,

Just made a partial break-through with my/our? audio
dropout at Transition on tape and Preview, stall, hang
problem.
Note:
I did not have a beep problem during transition, so I
don't know if this will help that, though the applicable
theory suggests it might.

I am no "expert" in this, however, based upon some
observations I've made trying to fix this, and please
excuse any incorrect Lingo, it appears Microsoft's PCM
Converter has trouble working with coincident varied bit
rates and/or varied sample rates...and not necessarily,
{though it still could be}, different file types or rates
that are too low. This might answer why an otherwise good
quality file might not work.

The PCM converter appears to "like" it if these rates are
consistent {mathematically relevent?] from clip to
clip....especially disliking variations placed in the
second audio track, or as differentiated between the
extremely fast DV capture rate and the much lower Audio
rates in the respective tracks.

Here's what I did to solve {grunge through}, most of the
problems I've had [at least for tonight], though some
remain. It's a lot more work than we should need to do but
it seems this works none-the-less...and where Micro-seems-
soft to lend a hand to uphold "pro" {adequate} quality.

Please excuse any omissions in the following steps, its
early:

I took a "finished" heavily editted project exhibiting The
Problem, the video/audio, 16 bit, of which was captured
from a Mini-DV camera, all other audio and video was
gotten from Microsoft downloads, and made a few extra
versions of the project as described below for purposes of
a "clean" compilation.

With the original "finished" Project open I did SAVE AS,
{"project name"_audio}, Then selected all video, DELETE.
SAVE.
What you have saved is the audio in the second audio track
AS IT IS SYNCRONIZED TO THE VIDEO {important for later}.
Save/render that as a Movie, same name, under the 340 kbps
video for Broadband selection to the computer. I tried
this rate only because of some things I've been noticing.
Remember here, were not interested in the video rate for
any attached video anyway. Others selections might work.
The theory requires that we convert all the individually
rated audio clips to something the MM2 Converter
understands without taxing it too much, {i.e., during
video/audio transition} yet and with sufficient quality so
it doesn't distort the sound by compression.

Reopen the original project file. SAVE AS, {"project
name"_video}. Delete the entire Second Audio track, SAVE.
[This is where I found the Preview starts to work
smoothly. [After taking out the second audio track, the
same as disabling the PCM Converter.] Make a DV-AVI Movie
file saved, same name, to the computer.

Open a new project. Import these two new files into
Collections, uncheck the box, create clips, (you want each
entire "movie" in one piece), then select and place that
Video "Collection" on the Timeline. Then select and place
the Audio "Collection" in the second audio/music line.
These should synchronize as in the Original.

Save "project name"_clean, then Render this a Movie to DV-
AVI camera/tape.

My finished Mini-DV taped project was in deed
finished...Mostly. Mostly more than before. Instead of
audio dropouts at every transition, I had only one dropout
and a couple pops which I will now turn my attention to
resolve.....or not...What's one dropout and some pops
between friends.



Oh, and the blurred slow motion movement cleared up too!
That indicates a Microsoft CODEC problem but not as
conflict.

There may be more efficient ways to do this work-around.
This was my first attempt, and success, despite all the
other ideas flying about. I made extra project name
versions only to keep track of the progress as I am
finding it harder and harder to keep track of what
territory I have and have not covered in resolving these
issues...shame on Microsoft to put us through this.

This work-around is absolutely unsatisfactory and time-
consuming for a product claiming to have us make movies
like a pro, but despite all that, I Hope this helps y'all
with an annoying inexcusable Problem on an otherwise
impressive program.

Merry Christmas.

 

[Anthony]

Phil,
Most excellent.
Good to hear of your success also.
After the frustration, finding some solution kind of makes
you want to take a deep breath.
Ha ha.

I have since reworked a couple more projects with the
techinique and have similar results, not perfect but much
more acceptable.
I have not analyzed the minor problems with regard to the
length of time of a clip regarding error occurance. This
still seems "random" to Me. That said, I have been able,
with a lot of meticulous and repeated editting to get some
of the pops, clicks, and end-of-clip volume increases to
go away. And this indicates it might be originating from a
different mechanism, but I won't eliminate any possibility.

I think the overall audio quality was
down from the original,

This could very well be. I believe most of the copying
selections have some compression factor.
I might have been a bit premature in one respect to offer
this workaround as I only know as much as I can observe
and test, but this thing is real frustrating and figured
some success should be presented for others as soon as I
had "stumbled" upon it.
I did not and have not looked at the "fix" from the
purpose of overall quality; Just tried to get rid of the
annoyance. For sure, fine-tuning might be in order.

Audio quality about the same as the short clip, generally
lesser than the original, but I'm sitting here listening to them one after
another, so I hear it. You probably wouldn't unless you were very familiar
with the song.

I suspect that is the case, we do have the "advantage" of
repeated viewing...And Expectation. But you are correct,
we don't need this sort of "extra".

One question: You say: 'Save/render that as a Movie, same name, under the
340 kbps
video for Broadband selection to the computer.'

I know you're asking this in relation to your next
paragraph,, but, remember this was the first attempt. I
merely tried the setting what seemed from all other
observations to be to most likely to reach the object.

There could very well be a better match either video or
audio.

Again, my sense is it may not really be the video, per se.
We're looking at mismatched or inconsistent coincident
audio files, maybe in relation to themselves or as against
the capacity of the PCM Converter to deal with the
onslaught. I believe it just so happens that transition
execution helps to expose the problem and to the visual
relationship only has our attention been drawn....But what
do I really know?
I'm just a frustrated mouse clicker.

When I 'Save Movie File...' with only an audio track, I only get 8 audio
choices; 8, 16, 32, 64, 96, 128, 160Kbps, and 'High Quality Audio', bit rate
unspecified.
I don't get any other choices but these. I have deleted all
the video, leaving just the secondary audio track. Am I

missing something?

No. I think you are doing it right.
It just so happens the first project I used, and explained
here, had video attached to the audio placed in the second
track as fill. So when I saved it, though it is used only
for audio, these files also have video attached that must
be copied. I didn't notice that earlier.

MM2 apparently doesn't really separate video from audio.
[Even when you pull the audio from the video into the
music track.]
The second project I tried did not have video attached in
the second audio track, being only audio files. I found
the same result as you did. I could only copy as a WMA
file. I chose the High Quality rate and continued from
there. The resultant Clear Render was the same as the
first attempt...at least from my macro approach of The
Problem.
Please understand I am not taking the technician's
approach yet,[ever], with regard to quality. I'm still in
the "That's just gotta stop. Give Me my video." frame of
mind.


Actually, I just want to edit video, not rework around
a "buggy" program.

It may be those of us that have this problem may have to
live with some degradation. I hope not, but this might be
because of the extra compressive saves. As you say,
however, it may be imperceptable by the casual visitor.
Indeed, though annoying to us, friends visiting the other
day and viewing The Problem Project on VHS noticed only
the dropouts and some video aberration and not the pops or
clicks generally. Otherwise, they enjoyed the
Video....We're T-H-A-T close.

Or have you installed Media Encoder or some other software that allows this
choice?

No, seeing them now as a Goose Chase, I have foregone all
that. I have the system set as normal as I could remember
having it before I tried to fix The Problem after Saving
my first project. The variables became too great to keep
track of. At some point I said, "Enough, K.I.S.S."

I think you are doing and finding what I have. From here
it may be building upon the technique, refining for
result. Hopefully even figuring out a more manageable
process, i.e., normalizing Audio and Video clips at the
point of capture/importation. I was thinking, You'd think
MM2 would do that automatically.

Thanks for your research. I hope we are getting closer to

a solution.

Thank you and Me too. I'd like to concentrate on being
creative.

Anthony.

 

[Phil Kopp]

Anthony,

Glad you continue to have success. I've done a couple more and again I'm
having quite good, but not perfect results. Thanks again for the process.

Just one final question if I may:
What PC and sound card or chipset does your PC use? I'm just trying to
collect a few data points. The sound system on both my PCs are on the
motherboard, so are audio chipsets rather than actual sound cards.
Appreciate the info.

--
Phil

Phil,
Most excellent.
Good to hear of your success also.
After the frustration, finding some solution kind of makes
you want to take a deep breath.
Ha ha.

I have since reworked a couple more projects with the
techinique and have similar results, not perfect but much
more acceptable.
I have not analyzed the minor problems with regard to the
length of time of a clip regarding error occurance. This
still seems "random" to Me. That said, I have been able,
with a lot of meticulous and repeated editting to get some
of the pops, clicks, and end-of-clip volume increases to
go away. And this indicates it might be originating from a
different mechanism, but I won't eliminate any possibility.

I think the overall audio quality was
down from the original,

This could very well be. I believe most of the copying
selections have some compression factor.
I might have been a bit premature in one respect to offer
this workaround as I only know as much as I can observe
and test, but this thing is real frustrating and figured
some success should be presented for others as soon as I
had "stumbled" upon it.
I did not and have not looked at the "fix" from the
purpose of overall quality; Just tried to get rid of the
annoyance. For sure, fine-tuning might be in order.

Audio quality about the same as the short clip, generally
lesser than the original, but I'm sitting here listening to them one after
another, so I hear it. You probably wouldn't unless you were very familiar
with the song.

I suspect that is the case, we do have the "advantage" of
repeated viewing...And Expectation. But you are correct,
we don't need this sort of "extra".

One question: You say: 'Save/render that as a Movie, same name, under the
340 kbps
video for Broadband selection to the computer.'

I know you're asking this in relation to your next
paragraph,, but, remember this was the first attempt. I
merely tried the setting what seemed from all other
observations to be to most likely to reach the object.

There could very well be a better match either video or
audio.

Again, my sense is it may not really be the video, per se.
We're looking at mismatched or inconsistent coincident
audio files, maybe in relation to themselves or as against
the capacity of the PCM Converter to deal with the
onslaught. I believe it just so happens that transition
execution helps to expose the problem and to the visual
relationship only has our attention been drawn....But what
do I really know?
I'm just a frustrated mouse clicker.

When I 'Save Movie File...' with only an audio track, I only get 8 audio
choices; 8, 16, 32, 64, 96, 128, 160Kbps, and 'High Quality Audio', bit rate
unspecified.
I don't get any other choices but these. I have deleted all
the video, leaving just the secondary audio track. Am I

missing something?

No. I think you are doing it right.
It just so happens the first project I used, and explained
here, had video attached to the audio placed in the second
track as fill. So when I saved it, though it is used only
for audio, these files also have video attached that must
be copied. I didn't notice that earlier.

MM2 apparently doesn't really separate video from audio.
[Even when you pull the audio from the video into the
music track.]
The second project I tried did not have video attached in
the second audio track, being only audio files. I found
the same result as you did. I could only copy as a WMA
file. I chose the High Quality rate and continued from
there. The resultant Clear Render was the same as the
first attempt...at least from my macro approach of The
Problem.
Please understand I am not taking the technician's
approach yet,[ever], with regard to quality. I'm still in
the "That's just gotta stop. Give Me my video." frame of
mind.


Actually, I just want to edit video, not rework around
a "buggy" program.

It may be those of us that have this problem may have to
live with some degradation. I hope not, but this might be
because of the extra compressive saves. As you say,
however, it may be imperceptable by the casual visitor.
Indeed, though annoying to us, friends visiting the other
day and viewing The Problem Project on VHS noticed only
the dropouts and some video aberration and not the pops or
clicks generally. Otherwise, they enjoyed the
Video....We're T-H-A-T close.

Or have you installed Media Encoder or some other software that allows this
choice?

No, seeing them now as a Goose Chase, I have foregone all
that. I have the system set as normal as I could remember
having it before I tried to fix The Problem after Saving
my first project. The variables became too great to keep
track of. At some point I said, "Enough, K.I.S.S."

I think you are doing and finding what I have. From here
it may be building upon the technique, refining for
result. Hopefully even figuring out a more manageable
process, i.e., normalizing Audio and Video clips at the
point of capture/importation. I was thinking, You'd think
MM2 would do that automatically.

Thanks for your research. I hope we are getting closer to

a solution.

Thank you and Me too. I'd like to concentrate on being
creative.

Anthony.

 

[Anthony]

Phil,

Just one final question if I may:
What PC and sound card or chipset does your PC use?

An IBM T40, 1.6Ghz Mobile, 512MbRAM, 80GB drive, XP Pro.
Analog Devices sound chip and device called SoundMax
Integrated Digital Audio.

Thanks for being interested enough to check out and verify
the suggestion.
Now, to the next obstacle.

Cheers.

Anthony.

 

[Guest]

Phil and Anthony
Heaps of thanks for sharing your research and solutions. I'm a firefighter, stuck working a 24 hour shift on Christmas (although our families did get to come over for dinner). You've provided not only a window to a solution, but interesting and entertaining reading... Thanks Again!