second HD with drive image

T

Timothy Daniels

Anna said:
Tim:
As far as I can determine there was no "typo" in my comments re this
issue.

Read again, Anna. You wrote:
"As many of us know, there has been a problem
with disk cloning programs in general with this situation in that
if immediately following the disk cloning operation both the
(internal) source & destination HDDs are connected and an
*initial* boot is made to the source drive, there can be a
subsequent problem with the destination drive in that it will
fail to boot if at a later time when it is the only HDD connected."

In the 3rd line from the bottom of the above paragraph, you wrote:
"*initial* boot is made to the source drive,...."
The problem does not stem from a boot to the source drive,
it stems from the 1st boot of the clone ON THE DESTINATION
drive when the clone can see its "parent" OS. That was the typo
I've been referring to - you substituted "source" for "destination".
Indeed, one can boot the "parent" OS on the source drive with
the clone visible to it many many times with no affect on the clone.
To the "parent" OS, the clone is just data.

The "problem" referred to is erratic in nature. We've encountered
countless situations where no boot problem subsequently existed
re the newly-cloned HDD regardless of whether that drive had
been connected together with the source HDD immediately
following the disk-cloning operation and the initial boot was made
to the source HDD. We've experienced many instances where that
destination drive subsequently functioned just fine.


Since the files affected are random and sparse in nature, if the
boot files and the registry aren't affected, the clone would boot
just fine and function finely, but one or two of the data files
might be just a pointer to the original file in the original partition.
That is why one can't pronounce the clone to be perfect unless
one has done a byte-for-byte comparison of the two partitions.
The boot difficulties that you have experienced earlier I have
seen only once. That may be caused by the difference in our
cloning procedures. You and your customers apparently clone
the entire hard drive. I clone just a single partition, and then I
put that clone into a single partition among several others on
the destination hard drive. This might lead to different files
being affected - usually the critical files in your case, usually
the data files in my case. Until that byte-for-byte comparison
is made for clones made using Casper 4.0, I'd continue to
isolate the new clone during its first startup.

*TimDaniels*
 
A

Anna

Tim:
I honestly can't see how my comments re this issue could be construed as a
"typo" or were misleading in any way as to cause misinterpretation by you or
anyone else for that matter. It seems senseless to go on with this thread
since all I would be doing is wasting bandwidth by repeating - ad nauseam,
I'm sure - the identical comments I originally wrote and no doubt you would
continue to repeat your comments.
Anna
 
J

Jud McCranie

For a quick recovery of *everything* on the Local Disk (i.e.
partition), make a clone

I've decided that it doesn't have to be quick. Five hours or so would
be OK, so I could be back up within a business day.
 
J

Jud McCranie

It has to be large enough to accomodate the size of the partitions you are
going to restore. It doesn't have to be identical.

Thanks. I've got the software on the way. I'll probably do it to my
external HD, but I might buy a second internal HD.
 
R

randommale9999

I have a few questions:

1. Alot of people seemed to recommend imaging over cloning because of
the ability to do incremental backups but since Casper 4.0 can do
incremental backsup is there any advantage to using imaing instead?

2. In the even of a source drive death, if the destination drive is an
internal drive and it is bootable then can you just use that
destination drive as the new source drive going forward or is there a
process by which you have to "install" or "configure" anything from
the clone to a new drive? I'm basically trying to find out if
"bootability" means you can just flip the switch to the new drive and
go on with your life or it means you can boot up in order to do other
things to fix your computer.

3. Can casper or maybe the hard drive (in conjunction with Casper) do
scheduled backups every day without me doing anything?

4. If you have a disk clone with incremental backups will there be any
problem booting right up or will you have to do anything to join the
incremental backups with the main backup in order to get everything
going?

5. Can you create clones of files that are currently open or currenly
being used?

6. What is a "removable hard drive" on a desktop? You seem to be
referring to something quick and easy which is not a standard internal
or external hard drive.

7. This site seems to have Casper 4.0 as shareware.
http://www.onlinedown.com/detail/7284.htm Anyone know about that?

8. "Remember that SATA HDs can be put into an external enclosure and
run as if it were "internal" in every way." Can you buy these at Best
Buy and stuff? Do they have a special name?

My setup is this: I have a desktop which I have all my files on and a
laptop connected to it via a wireless network. The desktop is always
one but rarely use it any more and it acts more like a file server. I
plan to hook up another hard drive to my desktop to do auto-back ups.
I figure the backup process may interfere with whatever I am doing and
I don't want to have to take an hour break just so a backup can run
(maybe this isn't even true.) so I will just run it on a computer I
don't use, but which has the files.

thanks
 
A

Anna

I have a few questions:

1. Alot of people seemed to recommend imaging over cloning because of
the ability to do incremental backups but since Casper 4.0 can do
incremental backsup is there any advantage to using imaing instead?

2. In the even of a source drive death, if the destination drive is an
internal drive and it is bootable then can you just use that
destination drive as the new source drive going forward or is there a
process by which you have to "install" or "configure" anything from
the clone to a new drive? I'm basically trying to find out if
"bootability" means you can just flip the switch to the new drive and
go on with your life or it means you can boot up in order to do other
things to fix your computer.

3. Can casper or maybe the hard drive (in conjunction with Casper) do
scheduled backups every day without me doing anything?

4. If you have a disk clone with incremental backups will there be any
problem booting right up or will you have to do anything to join the
incremental backups with the main backup in order to get everything
going?

5. Can you create clones of files that are currently open or currenly
being used?

6. What is a "removable hard drive" on a desktop? You seem to be
referring to something quick and easy which is not a standard internal
or external hard drive.

7. This site seems to have Casper 4.0 as shareware.
http://www.onlinedown.com/detail/7284.htm Anyone know about that?

8. "Remember that SATA HDs can be put into an external enclosure and
run as if it were "internal" in every way." Can you buy these at Best
Buy and stuff? Do they have a special name?

My setup is this: I have a desktop which I have all my files on and a
laptop connected to it via a wireless network. The desktop is always
one but rarely use it any more and it acts more like a file server. I
plan to hook up another hard drive to my desktop to do auto-back ups.
I figure the backup process may interfere with whatever I am doing and
I don't want to have to take an hour break just so a backup can run
(maybe this isn't even true.) so I will just run it on a computer I
don't use, but which has the files.

thanks


randommale...:
I don't know if you came across my recent posting concerning the Casper 4.0
program or not, but here it is again for your benefit and I trust for others
as well. Perhaps it will answer at least some of your questions but I'll try
to answer them specifically following the general description of the Casper
4.0 program based on my experience with it over a four month period...

We've been working with the Casper 4.0 disk cloning program for about three
months now and by & large we've been quite impressed with this program.
First of all, potential users should note that this is a *disk cloning*
program - not a disk imaging program - in the sense that the program is
designed to create (for all practical purposes) a bit-for-bit copy of the
HDD so that if the recipient of the clone is an internal HDD, that cloned
HDD will be bootable and its data immediately accessible, unlike the
situation where a disk image is created on the recipient HDD and a recovery
process is necessary to restore the image to a bootable, data-accessible
state.

In general, the chief advantage of a disk-imaging approach rather than a
disk-cloning one has always been that following the initial creation of a
disk image, subsequent incremental disk images can be created and this
allows for a significant (and desirable) increase in backup speed as
compared with the time it takes for a user to create a disk clone every time
the user backs up his or her system.

There's also a relatively minor (in our view) advantage of creating disk
images rather than disk clones in that the resultant disk image file can be
compressed in size, thus saving some disk space. However, this advantage
generally disappears (or at least is substantially lessened) after a number
of incremental backup disk image files are created following the initial
(original) backup file ("archive"). And given today's relatively inexpensive
large-capacity hard drives we do not feel this advantage is of major import
for most users. Additionally, disk imaging obviously lends itself better to
using DVDs as the backup media, however given the rather large amount of
data usually being backed up by most users in today's systems most users
prefer to use hard drives (internal or external) as the recipient of the
disk image backup when employing that approach rather than disk cloning. In
any event if one's primary or exclusive interest is in disk imaging rather
than disk cloning then one need not consider the Casper 4.0 program.

The significant advantage of the Casper 4.0 disk cloning program over other
disk cloning programs that we're familiar with, e.g., Acronis True Image,
Symantec's Norton Ghost, is its ability to create *incremental* disk clones
following the creation of the original (first) disk clone. Employing what
Casper calls its "SmartClone" technology the program can create subsequent
disk clones of the source HDD usually at a fraction of the time it takes to
create a "full" disk clone. This results in a decided incentive for users to
undertake frequent complete backups of their systems knowing that they can
create "incremental" disk clones in a relatively short period of time.

The Casper 4.0 program's capability in creating these *incremental* disk
clones results in an enormous savings of time as compared to the usual time
it takes to create a cloned disk using other disk-cloning programs. Knowing
that this incremental disk cloning process will take only a relatively short
period of time provides the user with increased motivation to back up their
systems on a much more frequent & systematic basis than they might otherwise
do - a most desirable result as I think we would all agree.

Another positive feature we've discovered with the Casper 4.0 program - at
least based on our experience to date - is that unlike other disk cloning
programs such as the Acronis & Ghost programs, when the recipient of the
clone - the destination HDD - is an *internal* HDD, the user need not
disconnect the source HDD from the system and make an *initial* boot
following the disk cloning operation with only the destination HDD
connected. Again, we're referring here to a disk cloning operation where the
recipient of the clone (the "destination" drive) has been an *internal* HDD.

As many of us know, there has been a problem with disk cloning programs in
general with this situation in that if immediately following the disk
cloning operation both the (internal) source & destination HDDs are
connected and an *initial* boot is made to the source drive, there can be a
subsequent problem with the destination drive in that it will fail to boot
if at a later time when it is the only HDD connected. Because of this
anomaly our advice - as well as from others including the developers of
these disk cloning programs - has heretofore always been to disconnect the
source HDD from the system immediately following the disk cloning operation
and make that initial boot with *only* the destination (internal) HDD
present. (And, of course, to determine that the clone has "took" - the
cloned HDD is bootable & functional).

While this problem does not always happen along the lines described above,
it does occur with sufficient frequency that we feel this cautionary note is
required. Note that where the recipient of the cloned contents of the source
HDD is an *external* HDD, such as a USB external HDD, this problem does not
exist since the USB external HDD is not ordinarily a bootable device.
Again - based on our experience with the Casper 4.0 program to date using a
fairly wide variety of systems together with both PATA & SATA HDDs in a
variety of combinations, e.g., SATA-to-SATA, PATA-to-PATA, SATA-to-PATA,
etc., we haven't experienced a single problem (as described above) in this
area.

Using the Casper program is simplicity itself. There's virtually no learning
curve in undertaking the disk cloning process as one navigates through the
few easy-to-understand screens with a final mouse-click on the button which
will trigger the disk-cloning process. After undertaking one or two
disk-cloning operations it should take the user no more than 20 seconds or
so to get to that point.

The program is not particularly inexpensive as disk cloning programs go.
Cost for a single-license is $49.95. AFAIK, the program is available for
download only from the developer at http://www.fssdev.com and this does not
include the "Casper Startup Disk" which sells for an additional $9.95. That
"Startup Disk" is a really essential piece of the program since in many
cases it would be the only way to effect a recovery of the system when the
installed Casper program could not be accessed from the Windows environment
because the program resides on a HDD that has failed or has become
unbootable. The usual scenario for using the Startup Disk is when the
recipient of the clone has been an external HDD - most likely a USB external
HDD - and the original source disk has become defective or dysfunctional
(unbootable) so that there is no opportunity to access the installed Casper
program. Since the USB external HDD containing the cloned contents of the
source drive is not bootable, one must use the Startup Disk in that
situation in order to clone the contents of the external HDD back to a
non-defective internal HDD in order to recover the system.

The developer does have a 30-day trial version available - see
http://www.fssdev.com/products/casper/trial/. The trial version is somewhat
crippled but should give one some reasonable insight as to how the program
works. However note that the trial version does not include the program to
create the "Startup Disk" noted above.

This Casper 4.0 program is advertised as being compatible with Vista,
however, except for some cursory experience we've had using Casper with that
operating system, we feel we haven't had sufficient experience with that OS
to form any absolute judgment as to its effectiveness (or lack of) in that
environment. I will say the relatively few times we've used Casper in the
Vista OS with a number of different systems it has performed flawlessly.


Using the Startup Disk...
The Startup Disk will ordinarily be employed in those recovery-type
situations where the user cannot gain access to the installed Casper program
because the HDD to be restored (on which the Casper program resides) is
unbootable due to a corrupted operating system or has become
mechanically/electronically defective, and the drive that contains the disk
clone is a USB or Firewire external HDD which is ordinarily unbootable thus
preventing access to the installed Casper program from that device.

When using the Startup Disk remember to connect only the two HDDs that will
be involved in the disk-cloning (recovery) process; disconnect any other
storage device(s) from the system. And in booting up with the Startup Disk -
please be patient. It's a lengthy bootup process which can take up to as
much as 10 minutes (and perhaps even a trifle more!) before the initial
Casper screen appears. Thereafter the disk-cloning operation (recovery)
should go smoothly.


Now, as to your specific questions...
1. The major advantage of creating incremental disk images is that by &
large it's a much faster process than creating a disk clone every time a
user desires to back up his or her system. Another advantage - although
relatively slight in our view because of the rather inexpensive cost of
today's large-capacity disks - is that the disk image can be compressed
saving some disk space.

The downside to disk imaging - at least in my view - is that the resultant
file (archive) is just that - the data (programs & applications, system
files, user-created data, etc.) is not immediately accessible to the user so
that a recovery process is necessary to return that data to a bootable,
functional state.

As I've indicated in my description of the Casper 4.0 program, this is the
major, if not crucial, advantage of that program in that it creates
incremental disk clones in just about the same time (if not faster!) it
would take to create an incremental disk image (we've used the Acronis TI
program as a comparison).

2. The answer is "yes". Again it's the major advantage of a disk clone
particularly where the recipient of the clone has been another internal HDD.
The cloned HDD is immediately bootable & functional in all respects. There
is no "restore" or "recovery" process necessary in this instance. Should the
recipient of the clone be a USB external HDD, since that device is not
ordinarily bootable, its contents would be cloned back to an internal HDD
should the recovery/restore process be necessary.

3. Yes, the Casper 4.0 program can perform scheduled backups on a daily or
other basis according to the user's choice.

4. Please understand that the incremental disk clone is complete in and of
itself. There are no previous files or archives to contend with (unless, of
course, for one reason or another the user desires to have multiple clones
on different drives).

5. It's always best to close all applications when performing the disk
cloning or disk imaging operation.

6. A "removable hard drive" is just that. It's a normal run-of-the-mill HDD
that's installed in a so-called "mobile rack". The rack fits into one of the
desktop PC's vacant 5 1/4" bays in just about the same way as an optical
drive or any 5 1/4" device would. So you need a vacant 5 1/4" bay to install
the device. Installation is simple - no more difficult than installing an
optical drive. This hardware configuration is not designed for a
laptop/notebook.

The removable HDD can be simply physically/electronically connected (or
disconnected) to & from the system with a turn of the key or a release of an
activating lever. The removable HDD when so connected functions as an
*internal* HDD exactly the same as any fixed, internal HDD.

It's a hardware configuration that we heartily endorse for nearly every
desktop PC user. The flexibility one gains from this hardware arrangement is
enormous. We're fond of saying that "once you begin working with one or two
removable HDDs your only regret is that you didn't install these devices
sooner". It's that good.

If you (or anyone else) is interested in more details about removable HDDs
I'll post them.

7. Discussed above.

8. External enclosures for SATA HDDs are available nearly everywhere. Check
out newegg & zipzoomfly for starters. There are dozens of models.

The point to keep in mind here is that in order for a SATA HDD that's
installed in one of these enclosures, the device must have SATA-to-SATA
connectivity in order for the SATA HDD to be treated by the OS as an
*internal* HDD. The SATA data (signal) cable connected to the enclosure
containing the SATA HDD must be connected to a SATA (or eSATA) connector on
the motherboard. There are also adapters available that are installed on the
backplane (the I/O panel) of the PC desktop that can facilitate this
SATA-to-SATA connectivity. Virtually all of these types of external
enclosures also have USB-connectivity capability so that the device can be
used for either. But the real value, of course, is using the SATA HDD as an
*internal* HDD while it physically resides outside the computer case.
Anna
 

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