Page check please - can't get layout right?

T

Terry Pinnell

Could someone be kind enough to take a quick look at this page please:
http://www.cupod-mentoring.com/uctc-2005comments.htm

I just cannot understand why I can't get it within an 800 x 600 page.
as I can with other broadly similar pages, such as
http://www.cupod-mentoring.com/Uckfield1.htm

I've made the overall outlying table a width of 100% (and I also tried
leaving it unspecified altogether). I've ensured no individual cell
has a width specified. The pictures are all a max width of 300 pixels.
But still it won't fit ;-(
 
S

Steve Easton

Both closing table tags: </table> are at the bottom of the page.
You need to move one up to the point just before you open the second table.


--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed............
........................with a computer
 
T

Terry Pinnell

Steve Easton said:
Both closing table tags: </table> are at the bottom of the page.
You need to move one up to the point just before you open the second table.
Click to expand...

Thanks Steve - but I can't find that in the FP HTML! A search finds
only one table opening tag, and one table closing tag. How does the
second one you spotted get into the Source?

See samples below:

FP 2000 HTML window: first few lines
------------------------------------
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
<html>

<head>
<title>Uckfield Trainee Feedback 2005</title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 4.0">
<meta name="ProgId" content="FrontPage.Editor.Document">
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="cupod_css1.css">
</head>

<body>

<table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
<tr>
<td width="146" height="143" align="left">

<p align="center"><img border="0"
src="images/logo_smoothed111b.gif" width="116" height="111"></p>

ETC

FP 2000 HTML window: last few lines
------------------------------------

<img border="0"
src="images/PGCESecondPlacementTrainees300x200.jpg" width="300"
height="200"><br>
PGCE Second Placement Trainees</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="left" valign="top" height="35"></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" colspan="2">

<p align="center">&nbsp;

<p align="center"><b>This is Page 6. Other Uckfield Teacher
Training
Pages:<a href="uckfield1.htm"><br>
Page 1</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="uckfield2.htm">Page
2</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</b><a href="uckfield3.htm"><b>Page
3</b></a><b>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<a href="uckfield4.htm">Page 4</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a
href="uckfield5.htm">Page
5</a></b></p>

<p><img border="0" src="images/acnvrule600-t.gif" width="580"
height="9"></p>
<!--webbot bot="Include" u-include="bottom_links1.htm"
tag="BODY" --></td>
</tr>
</table> ******* ONLY ONE OF THESE ************

</body>

</html>
====================

View>Source
-----------
<center>
<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="4">
<tr>
<td><a href="default.htm"><b>Home</b></a></td>
<td><a href="schools.htm"><b>Schools</b></a></td>
<td><a href="links.htm"><b>Ext. Links</b></a></td>

<td><a href="resources.htm"><b>Resources</b></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><a href="projects2003.htm"><b>Projects</b></a></td>
<td><b>&nbsp;<a href="glossary.htm">Glossary</a></b></td>
<td><a href="cupod_team.htm">CUPOD Team</a></td>
<td><a href="mailto:[email protected]"><b>Contact
Us</b></a></td>

</tr>
</table>
</center>

<!--webbot bot="Include" endspan i-checksum="50815" --></td>
</tr>
</table>

</body>

</html>
 
T

Thomas A. Rowe

Are you using any shared borders or FP includes?

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WebMaster Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
If you feel your current issue is a results of installing
a Service Pack or security update, please contact
Microsoft Product Support Services:
http://support.microsoft.com
If the problem can be shown to have been caused by a
security update, then there is usually no charge for the call.
==============================================
 
T

Terry Pinnell

Terry Pinnell said:
Thanks Steve - but I can't find that in the FP HTML! A search finds
only one table opening tag, and one table closing tag. How does the
second one you spotted get into the Source?
Click to expand...

[snip]

After a few minutes further study, I think that's a side issue anyway
Steve. To answer my own question, that extra code is just the little
table added at the bottom of all pages by FP. That's why it's not in
Source. And no effect on the page width.
 
T

Terry Pinnell

Thomas A. Rowe said:
Are you using any shared borders or FP includes?
Click to expand...

Our posts must have crossed, Thomas. See my quick follow-up to Steve.
Yes, I am, so that's unrelated to my sizing problem.

I'm in the course of rebuilding the page, and one thing is very
obvious: you just cannot rely on Cell Properties of FP 2000 to tell
you anything useful. For example, in 3 cells alongside each other,
left to right, the first is 146, the second 344, and the third 490
pixels according to individual readings obtained by r-clicking each
and looking at Cell Properties. (Note: solid check marks within the
Specify Width box.) That's a total of 980. Yet Preview in Browser and
the published page at this stage both display the page *completely*
with no scrolling within an 800 pixel wide window!
 
T

Terry Pinnell

After several more hours of fiddling, I'm pretty sure that the cause
was that I hadn't faithfully followed my 'template' of the table
structure. Now that I've rebuilt the page, it's almost within my width
target of 800. As you see from this snapshot, I'm just a few pixels
too wide at the time of composing this.
http://www.cupod-mentoring.com/uckfield6b.htm

As per my separate post, the sum of the individual cell widths
measured using Cell Properties in FP 2000 is still much greater than
800. Indeed, some individual cells are 840 wide!

Is this 'tool' equally misleading in more recent versions of FP?

Or is there some rule or technique I'm missing about the practical use
of Cell Properties please?
 
R

Ronx

If there are multiple rows in the table, and *every* cell in a column
has a width definition, and the widths clash with each other, then the
width of those cells will be effectively undefined - the browser will
fit the cells to the content rather than try to fathom out whether the
column should be 30px or 300px wide.
 
?

=?Windows-1252?Q?Rob_Giordano_\=28Crash_Gordon=AE\

Add up your widths...

The top left image is 116px wide, but the link bar usually accounts for a little more width than that. Then look at your top two cells the left one is set at 344, the second at 490...that comes to about 950.

Remember not...not...to drag table borders to adjust widths.
 
T

Terry Pinnell

Add up your widths...

The top left image is 116px wide, but the link bar usually accounts for a little more width than that. Then look at your top two cells the left one is set at 344, the second at 490...that comes to about 950.

Remember not...not...to drag table borders to adjust widths.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Rob, but if you're talking about the revised page I linked,
then I don't follow. As I said, if I look at
http://www.cupod-mentoring.com/uckfield6b.htm
in a browser set to 800x600, then only a tiny amount of scrolling is
necessary. That presumably implies that the total width of my page is
now just a fraction over 800. My only remaining question is why it
doesn't have a width of *exactly* 800, given the line:
<table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%">

Also, could you drive home the point about not dragging the borders?
Is that facility completely broken and *never* to be used?
 
T

Thomas A. Rowe

1. You need to allow for the scrollbar space, so you really need to keep the width of your table to
750 to 760 pixels. I use 750.

2. FP has a tendency to change from % to pixels when you drag the borders over a table or individual
cells. Either use the dialog or switch to HTML / Code View to change table/cell widths, and make
sure the total width of your cells equal 100% of the table width.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WebMaster Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
If you feel your current issue is a results of installing
a Service Pack or security update, please contact
Microsoft Product Support Services:
http://support.microsoft.com
If the problem can be shown to have been caused by a
security update, then there is usually no charge for the call.
==============================================
 
T

Terry Pinnell

Thomas A. Rowe said:
1. You need to allow for the scrollbar space, so you really need to keep the width of your table to
750 to 760 pixels. I use 750.

2. FP has a tendency to change from % to pixels when you drag the borders over a table or individual
cells. Either use the dialog or switch to HTML / Code View to change table/cell widths, and make
sure the total width of your cells equal 100% of the table width.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Point 2 now understood.

On point 1, do you mean that even with the 'outer' line
<table border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
I will never get the page limited to the browser setting, 800 in this
case? If so, I cannot see the point of that width qualifier? It
implies I *must* construct tables with specific pixel sizes (adding to
750). Surely that can't be right? Where is my misunderstanding please?
 
R

Ronx

The percentage width is the "percentage of the space available"
So a browser set to 800x600 will have a usable width of about 760px
(allowing for scroll bar and other chrome. 100% width will limit to
760px
Similarly, if you nest a 100% wide table in a small table cell, the
table will occupy 100% of the width of the cell (assuming the table's
content will fit).
 
T

Terry Pinnell

Ronx said:
The percentage width is the "percentage of the space available"
So a browser set to 800x600 will have a usable width of about 760px
(allowing for scroll bar and other chrome. 100% width will limit to
760px
Similarly, if you nest a 100% wide table in a small table cell, the
table will occupy 100% of the width of the cell (assuming the table's
content will fit).
Click to expand...

Thanks. I'm beginning to follow this, but must say I'm still not quite
there. Guess I'll have to read and experiment further. What puzzles me
is that, unlike the page under discussion, I have other similar pages
needing quite a *lot* of scrolling, despite their 'limiting' line.

For example, this page (frozen at the time of sending this)
http://www.cupod-mentoring.com/uckfield2a.htm
seems to need a window about 870px wide before the horizontal scroll
bar disappears. Yet the 21st line of its source code is
<table border="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
As I understand your summary, that should limit its 'required width'
to about 760px? That's only 40px below 800, yet I seem to need about
an extra 70px to fit it.

Note that I've temporarily changed its CSS so that it shows the
structure of my tables and cells. (I may be continuing to work on its
original at http://www.cupod-mentoring.com/uckfield2.htm )
 
S

Stefan B Rusynko

Table sizes Never limit
(they are minimums based on cell content not exceeding them)
- the size of the cell/table is ruled by the table cell content

--




|
| >The percentage width is the "percentage of the space available"
| >So a browser set to 800x600 will have a usable width of about 760px
| >(allowing for scroll bar and other chrome. 100% width will limit to
| >760px
| >Similarly, if you nest a 100% wide table in a small table cell, the
| >table will occupy 100% of the width of the cell (assuming the table's
| >content will fit).
|
| Thanks. I'm beginning to follow this, but must say I'm still not quite
| there. Guess I'll have to read and experiment further. What puzzles me
| is that, unlike the page under discussion, I have other similar pages
| needing quite a *lot* of scrolling, despite their 'limiting' line.
|
| For example, this page (frozen at the time of sending this)
| http://www.cupod-mentoring.com/uckfield2a.htm
| seems to need a window about 870px wide before the horizontal scroll
| bar disappears. Yet the 21st line of its source code is
| <table border="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%">
| As I understand your summary, that should limit its 'required width'
| to about 760px? That's only 40px below 800, yet I seem to need about
| an extra 70px to fit it.
|
| Note that I've temporarily changed its CSS so that it shows the
| structure of my tables and cells. (I may be continuing to work on its
| original at http://www.cupod-mentoring.com/uckfield2.htm )
|
| --
| Terry, West Sussex, UK
|
 
T

Tom J

Among the other problems, there is one you are not asking about.
Your menu is all over the place from page to page. If it's going to be
on the left, I would want it to be just under the logo on every page
and left formatted on every page. (some have center formatting) The
current page has the menu at the bottom left of the page.

Tom J
 
T

Terry Pinnell

Tom J said:
Among the other problems, there is one you are not asking about.
Your menu is all over the place from page to page. If it's going to be
on the left, I would want it to be just under the logo on every page
and left formatted on every page. (some have center formatting) The
current page has the menu at the bottom left of the page.

Tom J
Click to expand...
Thanks. Interesting, but that seems down to the temporary CSS file
change. Not an intended change, mind you! I thought I'd only altered
shown the table structure, leaving everything else unaltered.

Its original at
http://www.cupod-mentoring.com/uckfield2.htm
has the menu correct, and hopefully so do all the other pages on the
site. If you find one that's not, I'd appreciate a nod please.
 
T

Terry Pinnell

Stefan B Rusynko said:
Table sizes Never limit
(they are minimums based on cell content not exceeding them)
- the size of the cell/table is ruled by the table cell content
Click to expand...

OK, got it! I aim to remember that this time!
 
T

Terry Pinnell

Tom J said:
http://www.cupod-mentoring.com/resources.htm
The only one I would consider correct. All the rest are jumping up and
down from one page to the next.

http://www.cupod-mentoring.com/
Has extra text (ce) above menu.

http://www.cupod-mentoring.com/projects2003.htm
The worst. Center formatted.

Tom J
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot. Yes, they have got into a bit of an inconsistent mess.
Have corrected some of the points you made, but needs further solid
work.

In addition to vertical position variations (which I suspect are down
to row height problems, due mainly to my recurring confusion about how
to interpret FP 2000 Cell/Table Properties readings), I see the font
size of that LH menu varies. It's too large in these two:
http://www.cupod-mentoring.com/
http://www.cupod-mentoring.com/project-index.htm
Yet with the menu selected in FP Normal view, Style, Font and Font
Size boxes contain identical values [Normal, (Default font), Normal].

One problem is that many months that elapses between my working
sessions. Client estimated 6 months - it's now nearly 3 years. So I
forget much of the FP and CSS basics I studied back in 2002!
 

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