P4 retail box thermal material?

[chrisv]

You really ought to get with the 21st century, AF. P4 is dead.
*dead*, *DEAD*, I tell you! ...just as I predicted some few
years ago. ;-)

I think you predicted the same for USB, though... 8)

 

[chrisv]

It's about time you got with the program (Linux that is). Which flavor
will you be using? I highly recommend Gentoo (www.gentoo.org) for the
long haul. Of course if you really wish to get your hands dirty, you
may want to do an LFS (www.linuxfromscratch.org) install just for grins.

Crikey. Neither one of these is for the Linux neophite, eh? I've
been playing with Fedora core 2 and I like it.

 

[chrisv]

A little more $$, sure. I decided add the $$ (go bare-bones
elsewhere, for now) and skip the K7 family altogether. Note that
AMD not only has dual-channel, but an integrated memory
controller.

AMD has dual channel for huge $$$, yes. Although it's also true that
the Athlon doesn't have the thirst for bandwidth that the P$ does...

 

[chrisv]

I like the idea of HT, it seems like a decent way to get some extra
performance for a small transistor cost.

I agree. It's obviously not as good as two CPU's, but it's also much
cheaper than two CPU's.

(snip)

As another user of Gentoo, I would also warn away from it. Gentoo is
great for people who live and breath Linux as well as those who just
like to play around with it. However, if you want a system that
pretty much just works out of the box, it's not a very good choice.

Agreed. ALSO, anyone considering trying one of the new Linux's should
be aware of a problem they have with dual-boot systems - that is, they
don't work, as I learned the hard way 8(. I had Win2k, and
installed Fedora on my secondary drive (installing Grub as my
boot-loader), and Win2k would no longer boot.

 

[KR Williams]

I like the idea of HT, it seems like a decent way to get some extra
performance for a small transistor cost. However I'm not sure if it's
really a big win. It certainly isn't for all cases, though I have
seen some places where it bumps performance up by 20-25%. That's
pretty respectable IMO.

Wunnerful ideas don't always translate into great products. The
P4 is a perfect example. Wunnerfull, but not great.

That being said, I'm REAL excited about future dual-core chips. I'm
thinking that I'm going to ride my current system out until they
arrive and upgrade then. I've got an AthlonXP 1700+ that is serving
me pretty well, though some games are occasionally a bit slow and
compiling stuff in Gentoo is slow as always.

I skipped the K7 generation totally. My K6 still works tonight,
thanks to a KVM. ;-) Games? Please! Perhaps something
interesting, but I don't do 3D-shoot-em-ups. I've not seen a
reason to go 3D. I've seen *many* to do excellent 2D though.

They may be owned by Novell, but it's still pretty much a German
thing. That being said, all the important scripts and instructions
seem to have been well translated into English last time I looked into
it (pre-Novell buyout).

Have you looked at 9.1? I'm still wondering about the warning
message that I'm installing a 32bit OS on a 64bit machine.
though. I want to start over, but it seems to be adamant that it
knows better. ...perhaps that "German" thing? ;-)

As another user of Gentoo, I would also warn away from it. Gentoo is
great for people who live and breath Linux as well as those who just
like to play around with it. However, if you want a system that
pretty much just works out of the box, it's not a very good choice.

That's what I've been told (obviously), by one who frequents both
my office and this group. ;-)

SuSE was the first to get their 64-bit system really up to par. From
what I understand, these days RedHat, Gentoo and Mandrake (and maybe a
few others) are all doing just fine with 64-bits as well. The 64-bit
part itself was pretty straight-forward, most distributions already
support some 64-bit architecture in some for or another (mostly old
Alpha and/or SPARC, though some also support PPC 64-bit). Mostly it
was just a straight recompile. The only tricky part was the bi-arch
nature of AMD64 systems, getting them to work well with 32-bit x86
binaries as well as the 64-bit x64-64 ones.

Hmmm. Is this why I'm getting the above *stupid* message? I do
plan on reformatting everything and starting over. I still have
this machine, at least until I get the CFO to buy into Linux.

 

[KR Williams]

I think you predicted the same for USB, though... 8)

Yeah, I was never a fan of USB and have only recently bought any
USB widgets (a still camera and printer, still in its box). How
long did it take for USB to become usable? It's only in it's
later incarnations is it even useful. If you remember my
proposal was to simply use Ethernet for low speed connections
(the infrastructure was already there) and Fire-Wire for the
high end. Though apparently Apple mucked the latter possibility
possibility up.

 

[Tony Hill]

AMD has dual channel for huge $$$, yes.

Not quite so huge, the 1xx series of Opteron chips are actually rather
reasonably priced (I was quite surprised the last time I checked).
They start at only a bit over $150 and even the some of the faster 146
(1.8GHz) chips can be found for under $500. Expensive, yes, but in
the same basic range as high-end P4 chips.

Also, AMD just today announced their socket 939 Athlon64 chips which
should bring dual-channel Athlon64s to the masses. (amazingly enough
you can actually BUY the chips today too! albeit for a
first-on-the-block premium).

 

[Anthony Fremont]

Oh, but HT does cost extra. Apparently in it's present
implementation it's not worth that extra (P4 is dead meat). AMD
with HT? Who cares. AMD w/dual cores seems to be getting some
interest though. Meanwhile Intel is trying to do a Heinz with
*AMD64* (under their moniker) as a XEON only. You're team is
responding just so on-script.

Bah...HT has a demonstrable advantage over a single threaded core. Of
course it's not as good as dual cores, but then it doesn't cost twice as
much either. I thinks it's hard to say that HT costs "more" since it's
not like you really have a choice on whether to get it or not.
Unfortunately Prescott is taking the Northwood choice away too.

...seems you've missed a *lot*! '-)

Not really. It WAS a German distribution. Aparently Novell did a good
job of hiding that from you. ;-)

Too much configuration/compiling for the Lin-novice. SuSE came
highly recommended (from many sources) as being the "best". YaST
is a selling point. ...though I'm still not there.

IMO installing a big distro in 15 minutes that boots straight to a GUI
is not a good way to learn how Linux/Unix works, but it is a good way to
mash your partition table and MBR if you were intending to dual boot an
existing OS or to be clueless on how to fix something when it doesn't
work. My suggestion was based upon the fact that you are an engineer
and I surmised that you were on a quest for knowledge, forgive me if I
made an incorrect assumption. Gentoo is NOT unduly hard, I don't know
why some here are making a big deal out of it. In fact it's the easiest
distro to upgrade or install apps in that I've seen to date (I have seen
a couple now ;-). IOW, it's worth the added effort if you want to learn
how things work. Note that everyone that advised you not to use it,
uses it themselves. ;-)

YaST is convenient, but it won't teach you how anything works. To me,
the beauty of Linux/Unix over windos is that there are no big mysteries
or black-boxes in how it functions. It may appear that there is
sometimes, but it all basicaly comes down to text based config files and
scripts. I'm not just picking on SuSE here, I feel much the same about
all "easy to install" Linux distros. Pay now or pay later. ;-)

Understand that different people have different motivation. You
know Gentoo. ...doesn't mean it's the best for a novice.

That doesn't really follow my comment, so I responded above. ;-) I
hardly considered you to be a novice.

I fully understand that Gentoo is not for the masses, but it's a real
good learning opportunity for technically minded folks like yourself.

Shultz: I know NooothhING!

You'll learn allot more by working your way up to the GUI instead of
starting at one and working your way down to the details that you simply
must know to manage your system.

Yeah, the system has been hung for hours waiting to change the
resolution (you were right the monitor lied) with the clock

I'm going to frame that. ;-)

spinning (once I added the secondary display). I rebooted with
the installation CD but all I get now is a "casper", then the
same clock spinning It still won't let me change the graphics
stuff. Me thinks PQMagic is going to have to delete everything
and start over. Not a biggie, the old machine (this one) is
three keystrokes away.



Well. We *are* learning things by the minute. ;-) However, my
understanding is that the G500 is rather "simple". Indeed, the
secondary display works, though hardly optimallyy. I've triedto
do *something* and it seems to be hung. I cannot even coax the
thing to re-install. Well, learn...



All done. It took all of an hour to get it all together, after
the trip to the Home Despot. I have both machines playing
together (with a KVM on the primary display) rather nicely. NOw
to convince the new machine to behave!

Good luck, sounds like you'll need it I'm afraid. 'man XF86Config' for
hints.

A punch-down is all I need. Unfortunately I lent my ($80) tool
to someone, now unknown. I can do an acceptable job without it,
but...

A small pocket knife blade makes a pretty good 110 punch tool
substitute. I use this technique allot after breaking a few relatively
expensive RJ-45's using the impact tool. I do use the impact tool on
patch panels though.

Flexible shaft drill-bit and an electricians snake (though a PITA
doing it alone running up&down stairs). It's all done. We're
transmitting from the kid's former room, though it is still a
disaster. ;-)

The next task is the adjoining bathroom. I *HATE* plumbing.

Try doing it all with galvanized pipe and then you'll appreciate how
easy plumbing has become thanks to PVC. ;-)

 

[jack]

: On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 07:44:52 -0500, chrisv <[email protected]>
: wrote:
::
::
::: A little more $$, sure. I decided add the $$ (go bare-bones
::: elsewhere, for now) and skip the K7 family altogether. Note that
::: AMD not only has dual-channel, but an integrated memory
::: controller.
::
:: AMD has dual channel for huge $$$, yes.
:
: Not quite so huge, the 1xx series of Opteron chips are actually rather
: reasonably priced (I was quite surprised the last time I checked).
: They start at only a bit over $150 and even the some of the faster 146
: (1.8GHz) chips can be found for under $500. Expensive, yes, but in
: the same basic range as high-end P4 chips.
:
: Also, AMD just today announced their socket 939 Athlon64 chips which
: should bring dual-channel Athlon64s to the masses. (amazingly enough
: you can actually BUY the chips today too! albeit for a
: first-on-the-block premium).

Oh man, I'm there! I have been waiting (and waiting, and waiting.....)
for this chipset (and the ensuing mobo) to come out for a while now.
Think I'll be patient and wait a bit longer however, as I **hate** to be
"first-on-the-block" with this kind of new technology.

J.
(/still drooling at the thought, though)

 

[chrisv]

Not quite so huge, the 1xx series of Opteron chips are actually rather
reasonably priced (I was quite surprised the last time I checked).
They start at only a bit over $150 and even the some of the faster 146
(1.8GHz) chips can be found for under $500. Expensive, yes, but in
the same basic range as high-end P4 chips.

True. I was thinking of the FX chips, which are like $700. What the
heck's the diff between an "opteron for workstations" and an FX?

Also, AMD just today announced their socket 939 Athlon64 chips which
should bring dual-channel Athlon64s to the masses. (amazingly enough
you can actually BUY the chips today too! albeit for a
first-on-the-block premium).

Cool.

 

[Walt]

Yep, even inside my Chieftec case.

 

[Walt]

My birthday is coming up. Hint, hint...

 

[Anthony Fremont]

Yep, even inside my Chieftec case.

How do you know it's throttling? Are you sure your video card isn't
throttling? Is it a Northwood or Prescott?

 

[KR Williams]

My birthday is coming up. Hint, hint...

Nah, I had to move things upstairs into Brad's old room (he's
"gone", though he's in town tonight). The printer was part of
S' Christmas present to go with the camera, but I really had no
place to put it (I did, but...). The scam worked and I now have
a new machine, but now I'm getting grief because I want to dump
Win. It'll still be there on the old system! ...just a few
keystrokes away.

 

[KR Williams]

Bah...HT has a demonstrable advantage over a single threaded core. Of
course it's not as good as dual cores, but then it doesn't cost twice as
much either. I thinks it's hard to say that HT costs "more" since it's
not like you really have a choice on whether to get it or not.
Unfortunately Prescott is taking the Northwood choice away too.

In theory, you would be correct. For some "easy" workloads
Intel's implementation even works. For the random desktop
applications it's useless, and indeed can be detrimental.
....perhaps a good idea, louse implementation.

Not really. It WAS a German distribution. Aparently Novell did a good
job of hiding that from you. ;-)

Certainly it was. Novell bought it mid last year, IIRC.
Apparently I'm not as ignorant as some though. The *fact* is
that there is no need to "get past all that German". You're
showing your arrogance again.

IMO installing a big distro in 15 minutes that boots straight to a GUI
is not a good way to learn how Linux/Unix works,

Good grief gert! I'm not looking to know how Linux works! Your
arrogance is incredible! I do *not* want to play with the OS!
I'm simply looking for a way to displace *WinBlows*. If I can
learn something along the way, that's goodness too. I *may* even
play with another distro on another drive, if I get the time. I
do have real work to do.

but it is a good way to
mash your partition table and MBR if you were intending to dual boot an
existing OS or to be clueless on how to fix something when it doesn't
work.

Gee, the WinBlows I loaded (to test the system, prior to loading
Linux) still works. Go figure. I guess I somehow know more than
you? Please!

My suggestion was based upon the fact that you are an engineer
and I surmised that you were on a quest for knowledge, forgive me if I
made an incorrect assumption.

You are incorrect, at least as a first order equation. I really
don't care about the OS. Sure I'd like (second order) to learn
new skills, but if the OS don't work, neither do I. I'd rather
have a working system than a dead pile of expensive trash.

Gentoo is NOT unduly hard, I don't know
why some here are making a big deal out of it. In fact it's the easiest
distro to upgrade or install apps in that I've seen to date (I have seen
a couple now ;-). IOW, it's worth the added effort if you want to learn
how things work. Note that everyone that advised you not to use it,
uses it themselves. ;-)

Perhaps. Perhaps not. I'd rather learn my way around a solid
install and *perhaps* do a sandbox on the side, when I get some
more space.

YaST is convenient, but it won't teach you how anything works. To me,
the beauty of Linux/Unix over windos is that there are no big mysteries
or black-boxes in how it functions. It may appear that there is
sometimes, but it all basicaly comes down to text based config files and
scripts. I'm not just picking on SuSE here, I feel much the same about
all "easy to install" Linux distros. Pay now or pay later. ;-)

Well, if what you say is correct (I don't believe it), I'd rather
bite the bullet and go with XP (puke). No, you can play all you
want, I need something that works and will please the CFO (who
isn't too happy about Linux, right now). The system *must* work,
before one can play.

That doesn't really follow my comment, so I responded above. ;-) I
hardly considered you to be a novice.

In Linux I am. I've worked *with* AIX for a few years, but I
don't even have root access to my system (no need). There is a
learning-curve ahead, just as there was win WinBlows. No
problem, but I do *not* need to know how it all works. I really
don't even want to know.

I fully understand that Gentoo is not for the masses, but it's a real
good learning opportunity for technically minded folks like yourself.

Sigh. I do hardware. I cannot be bothered with the ugliness of
the software that supports what I need to do. Perhaps I'll get
curious, perhaps not. Yes, with Linux I do have that choice. I
like choice. ;-)

You'll learn allot more by working your way up to the GUI instead of
starting at one and working your way down to the details that you simply
must know to manage your system.

I want it to *work*. Yes it does, sorta. I've even connected
to the Internet (plugging in the other end of the LAN cable into
the router helped a lot), and can read the Usenet, but for some
reason can't post. ??? ..no more time to play today.

I'm going to frame that. ;-)

Apparently Linux crashed during the install. I reinstalled and
everything went hunky-dory. Of course I set up the monitors
(both were attached this time) to what I wanted, but I was a
little surprised that I couldn't select the refresh rate (the max
was auto-selected, I presume). I'll have to adjust the geometry
of the displays when I get time.

Good luck, sounds like you'll need it I'm afraid. 'man XF86Config' for
hints.

The displays are working fine now (since the re-install). It
didn't like my first try.

A small pocket knife blade makes a pretty good 110 punch tool
substitute. I use this technique allot after breaking a few relatively
expensive RJ-45's using the impact tool. I do use the impact tool on
patch panels though.

A tool comes with the widgets, but it ain't no punch-down tool.

Try doing it all with galvanized pipe and then you'll appreciate how
easy plumbing has become thanks to PVC. ;-)

This is just the commode fittings. The supply line is rotted out
at the connection to the shut-off valve and the tank bolts are
apparently corroded through. I do *indeed* hate plumbing repair.
New is easy. PVC? ...for waste perhaps. Supply is all copper.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Robert Redelmeier]

a new machine, but now I'm getting grief because I want to dump
Win. It'll still be there on the old system! ...just a few
keystrokes away.

One word: KVM.

Iomega make a really cute 2 port with attached siamesed cables.

-- Robert

 

[Tony Hill]

True. I was thinking of the FX chips, which are like $700. What the
heck's the diff between an "opteron for workstations" and an FX?

Main difference is the fancy printing on the box :>

The Opteron and the socket 940 Athlon64 FX chips are otherwise
identical if they're running at the same clock speed (ie the Athlon64
FX 51 == Opteron 148 and Athlon64 FX == Opteron 150). In theory the
FX chips have only 1 Hypertransport link while the Opterons have 3
(though none are capable of being used in multiprocessor connections),
but I've never seen any motherboards try to make use of this
difference and I understand that the FX chips really do have all 3 HT
connections working just fine.

Of course, now with the new Socket 939 Athlon64 FX chips being
announced they are going to be somewhat different. Still using the
same die, but they will have a different pin-out.

Cool.

Yup, combine that with the nForce 250 chipset arriving and the
Athlon64 is finally starting to look like a rather attractive platform
IMO.

 

[Rob Stow]

True. I was thinking of the FX chips, which are like $700. What the
heck's the diff between an "opteron for workstations" and an FX?

The Socket 940 FX differs from the Opty 1xx only in how it
is marketed. The FX's also seem to be showing a trend of
being in the stores a little earlier than an Opty 1xx of
the same clock speed.

When the Opty 150 and 250 first came out I did a little
price checking: at some vendor web sites you could save
$200 or more by getting an 2.4 GHz Opty 150 instead of a
2.4 GHz FX. Wonder if that has been "corrected" yet ?

 

[Rob Stow]

Main difference is the fancy printing on the box :>

The Opteron and the socket 940 Athlon64 FX chips are otherwise
identical if they're running at the same clock speed (ie the Athlon64
FX 51 == Opteron 148 and Athlon64 FX == Opteron 150). In theory the
FX chips have only 1 Hypertransport link while the Opterons have 3

No. All of the Opty's and all of the FX's have 3 HT links.

The Opty 1xx and the FX are identical except for the marketing.
As well, you get different cpu fans with the retail box FX
than you do with a retail boxed Opty 1xx. There also seems to
be a little anecdotal evidence that the FX is more overclockable -
assuming, of course, that you don't consider "anecdotal evidence"
to be an oxymoron.

What sets the Opty 1xx/FX, 2xx and 8xx apart is the number of coherent
HT links there are. 1xx and FX have no coherent and 3 noncoherent.
2xx has 1 coherent and 2 NC. 8xx have 3 coherent and zero NC.
Coherent can be used for anything. NC cannot be used for interproc
links.

 

[Anthony Fremont]

In theory, you would be correct. For some "easy" workloads
Intel's implementation even works. For the random desktop
applications it's useless, and indeed can be detrimental.
...perhaps a good idea, louse implementation.

I've done some tinkering in Linux by disabling HT and comparing package
build times against HT enabled. HT is faster. Of course dual cores is
useless as well if your OS can't make decent use of it, or you use a
single threaded app.

Certainly it was. Novell bought it mid last year, IIRC.
Apparently I'm not as ignorant as some though. The *fact* is
that there is no need to "get past all that German". You're
showing your arrogance again.

When I looked at it a few years ago, AIR there was allot of German to
get past. You're showing your newbiness to Linux. ;-)

Good grief gert! I'm not looking to know how Linux works! Your
arrogance is incredible! I do *not* want to play with the OS!

My mistake perhaps, but not arrogance.

I'm simply looking for a way to displace *WinBlows*. If I can
learn something along the way, that's goodness too. I *may* even
play with another distro on another drive, if I get the time. I
do have real work to do.

For me, learning how to manage Linux constitutes real work, which
subsequently translates into real dollars. I have plenty of "real work"
to do myself, but I make time to educate myself. ;-)

Gee, the WinBlows I loaded (to test the system, prior to loading
Linux) still works. Go figure. I guess I somehow know more than
you? Please!

Yes Keith, I'm well aware of your contempt for me. There is no need to
turn this into another pissing contest. I'm only trying to offer you
friendly advice, if you don't want it, fine.

You may be surprised to know that a good many people accidently format
their drives or wipe their master boot records without knowing it til
it's too late. Google for yourself as I'm sure you don't believe me.

Speaking of arrogance.

You are incorrect, at least as a first order equation. I really
don't care about the OS. Sure I'd like (second order) to learn
new skills, but if the OS don't work, neither do I. I'd rather
have a working system than a dead pile of expensive trash.

I have yet to have any Gentoo install result in a "dead pile of
expensive trash".

Perhaps. Perhaps not. I'd rather learn my way around a solid
install and *perhaps* do a sandbox on the side, when I get some
more space.

I am only offering food for thought. The choice, as always, is up to
you. I do hope that you will at least try some other installs beforing
concluding that SuSE is best or somehow "more solid" than the others.
Let me reitterate, everyone that told you not to use Gentoo, runs it.
You should ask yourself why that is.

If you are proposing that your shop switch to Linux, IMO it would
behoove you to know some basics of the system when problems arise during
the conversion and afterwards. Again the choice is yours, but I
wouldn't want to be caught with my pants down at work. I would imagine
that all the pc's in your shop are different, every Linux install will
have a different outcome than what you are experiencing with your
machine at home.

Installing Gentoo at home would give you (at least) a basic
understanding of modules, permissions, networking, and X. Again, I'm
only offering advice based upon my experiences with Linux (>9 years
now). I'm not saying SuSE is not the right choice for your shop. I am
saying that you have allot to learn before you will be ready to support
your shop running any form of Linux. If you already have Linux gurus at
work then never mind. ;-)

Well, if what you say is correct (I don't believe it), I'd rather

Matters not to me whether you believe it or not.

bite the bullet and go with XP (puke). No, you can play all you

Actually my experiences with XP haven't been all that bad. That is, as
long as the system boots.

want, I need something that works and will please the CFO (who
isn't too happy about Linux, right now). The system *must* work,
before one can play.

Yes it must. Learning how to support it is not necessarily play though.

In Linux I am. I've worked *with* AIX for a few years, but I
don't even have root access to my system (no need). There is a
learning-curve ahead, just as there was win WinBlows. No
problem, but I do *not* need to know how it all works. I really
don't even want to know.

Perhaps you should consider taking a look at Lindows or Lycoris then.
;-)

yourself.

Sigh. I do hardware. I cannot be bothered with the ugliness of
the software that supports what I need to do. Perhaps I'll get
curious, perhaps not. Yes, with Linux I do have that choice. I
like choice. ;-)

Coming from primarily a software background, I tend to find the inverse
true. Much hardware is broken in ugly ways, and my beautiful software
makes it all work. ;-)

I want it to *work*. Yes it does, sorta. I've even connected
to the Internet (plugging in the other end of the LAN cable into
the router helped a lot), and can read the Usenet, but for some
reason can't post. ??? ..no more time to play today.

What news reader are you using?

Apparently Linux crashed during the install. I reinstalled and

Now that I seriously doubt. This is not windows, it is quite unlikely
that the software would not do precisely the same thing twice in a row
without you having done something different.

everything went hunky-dory. Of course I set up the monitors
(both were attached this time) to what I wanted, but I was a

Ahh, so you did do something different. ;-)

little surprised that I couldn't select the refresh rate (the max
was auto-selected, I presume). I'll have to adjust the geometry
of the displays when I get time.

Be prepared to spend some time learning how to configure X. When the
fancy tools won't get the job done, someone needs to know how to edit
the config files.

The displays are working fine now (since the re-install). It
didn't like my first try.

Now can you tell my why?

A tool comes with the widgets, but it ain't no punch-down tool.
???


This is just the commode fittings. The supply line is rotted out
at the connection to the shut-off valve and the tank bolts are
apparently corroded through. I do *indeed* hate plumbing repair.
New is easy. PVC? ...for waste perhaps. Supply is all copper.

http://www.harvel.com/piping-cts-plumbing.asp?id=gg