OEM Versus Hobbicolors ink in Canon Pixma: THE TESTS

[BD]

Well let me ask another interesting question:

how come when I first got my i9900, using the supplied canon oem ink and
canon paper, I could not get an accurate, color matched printout of what
I was seeing on the screen?

Weeeellll... I guess the message there is that printer, ink and paper
aren't all the variables in the equation. And I have no disagreement
with that.

I'd be surprised if what I printed looked exactly like my screen did as
well - _but_ what I expected was, all other things being equal, the
hobbicolors print looking different from my screen in a similar sense
as the OEM print.

I recently spotted a thread on nifty-stuff about a green cast from
Hobbicolors ink. I think I'll post in there and see what comes of it.

 

[art]

What kind of gets me (and I concede I don't know the first thing about
how ink is formulated) is that... OEM ink is not a moving target. What
was BCI-6 cyan two years ago is BCI-6 cyan today. We're talking about
creating three different colors, and a black. So I am forced to wonder
what it is that makes it such a challenge to accurately emulate OEM
color gamuts. You'd think that trial and error over time could allow
ink formulators to 'dial in' each color over time, to near perfect
accuracy.

But I guess I'm looking at it from the same perspective as
color-matching paint... which, it would seem, someone at my local
hardware store can do pretty well, without a whole huge amount of
experience or education - just an 'eye' for the effects that a change
in a primary color can have on the final color balance.

So - asking this not as a facetious jab, but a genuine lack of
understanding of what's involved - what is it that makes it so hard to
balance or emulate three little colors?

Matching the OEM ink in terms of color is probably not that difficult,
The hard part is to match color at a cheap price. After having
matched color the next problem is to match longevity. If someone had
a formula that matched color and longevity it is doubtful if it would
be price competitive with the OEM. The aftermarket ink is fine when
doing throw away type printing.

 

[BD]

The aftermarket ink is fine when
doing throw away type printing.

And I guess this is where I was misinterpreting the reports. I imagine
that it also depends on _what_ is being printed: for example, colored
documents or Powerpoint slides may be completely satisfactory if the
colors are slightly off from 'baseline'.

Still. I'm not altogether convinced that something is not 'wrong': I
spotted a thread on nifty-stuff concerning a 'green cast' in a
printout. I'll look over there.

 

[Burt]

Well let me ask another interesting question:
how come when I first got my i9900, using the supplied canon oem ink and
canon paper, I could not get an accurate, color matched printout of what I
was seeing on the screen?
Frank

Frank - When I bought my i960 Canon printer I used the OEM carts until they
needed refilling. I then ran the same photo files with MIS inks. Both
tended to lean toward red/magenta and the OEM prints were somewhat
oversaturated. Although I own and enjoy using three Canon printers I have
read that their color profiles are not the best. What was the tendency with
the i9900? Also toward the red tones?

 

[frank]

Frank - When I bought my i960 Canon printer I used the OEM carts until they
needed refilling. I then ran the same photo files with MIS inks. Both
tended to lean toward red/magenta and the OEM prints were somewhat
oversaturated. Although I own and enjoy using three Canon printers I have
read that their color profiles are not the best. What was the tendency with
the i9900? Also toward the red tones?

Yep, it sure was. To say I was disappointed would be an understatement.
Of course after the first few disappointing prints, I dl'ed i9900
specific icc's and tried printing in every graphic program I have (and
that's a lot of programs). I spent days trying to get a reasonably close
match from screen to print. Then after the oem ink started to run out I
went to after market suppliers. Finally settled on Hobbicolor which
works just fine for me.
Frank

 

[zakezuke]

And I guess this is where I was misinterpreting the reports. I imagine
that it also depends on _what_ is being printed: for example, colored
documents or Powerpoint slides may be completely satisfactory if the
colors are slightly off from 'baseline'.

Still. I'm not altogether convinced that something is not 'wrong': I
spotted a thread on nifty-stuff concerning a 'green cast' in a
printout. I'll look over there.

I have yet to test my theory, but based on what everyone is saying, and
based on what you are saying, it SOUNDS like you got the wc8 version of
the ink rather than the the bci-6 compatable It's red in my eyes is
shifted slightly tward the yellow. There was another company who got
what was termed at the time "asian market" red and resold it as bci-6
compatable. I would need to see a scanned swab of both OEM and what
you got to really be sure. You may also wish to swap out just magenta
and peform the same tests.

I lack direct experence to be sure but your experence is inconsistant
with what i've read here.

 

[BD]

compatable. I would need to see a scanned swab of both OEM and what

you got to really be sure. You may also wish to swap out just magenta
and peform the same tests.

I did swap the magentas back, and ran through about 3 full-page prints.
No real difference was evident, but the three pages may not have been
sufficient to transition the ink in the head. Not sure.

As to swabs - what exactly are we talking about here? Taking a cotton
swab and running a strip along a piece of paper, and then scanning that
for all to see? I can do that no problem, if you think it would be of
value...

BD

 

[BD]

compatable. I would need to see a scanned swab of both OEM and what

you got to really be sure. You may also wish to swap out just magenta
and peform the same tests.

Here is a scanned swab of all 5 carts.

Differences are not *gross*, but are noticeable:

Yellow is noticeably lighter.
Magenta looks more red than 'pink',
Cyan is less rich.

I used the Kirkland glossy paper for the scan. Epson Perfection 1250
Pro scanner, Epson TWAIN 5.71a for the capture...

http://members.shaw.ca/robertrd/inkswab.jpg

I dunno.

I guess the fact that the raw swabs are noticeably different ain't
great...

Other opinions?

BD

 

[zakezuke]

Here is a scanned swab of all 5 carts.

Differences are not *gross*, but are noticeable:

Yellow is noticeably lighter.
Magenta looks more red than 'pink',
Cyan is less rich.

I used the Kirkland glossy paper for the scan. Epson Perfection 1250
Pro scanner, Epson TWAIN 5.71a for the capture...

http://members.shaw.ca/robertrd/inkswab.jpg

I dunno.

I'm seeing much in the way of green. Are you sure you're not using
kirkland's 4x6 paper? Well I just pulled a reference from
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=12198835

Lots of green there too.

Your OEM is about r190 and b87 (decimal) Discounting the extra green.
Your HOBI is about r171 and b76

My MIS is r160 b59. My Hobbi wc8 is r177 b15

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e377/urusei-yatsura/hobiVSmis.jpg
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e377/urusei-yatsura/hobiVSmis2.jpg

The fact that we are using different scaners and the fact that I don't
have any OEM handy to test does add some shadow of doubt, but this
should be enough information to contact hobbicolors and at least ask
about the possiblity of being shipped wc8 ink rather than bci-6
compatable. Looks to me like it's shifted away from the blue.

This is not conclusive but I feel a reasonable hypothesis.

I guess the fact that the raw swabs are noticeably different ain't
great...

Other opinions?

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1003&message=12198835

 

[frank]

Here is a scanned swab of all 5 carts.

Differences are not *gross*, but are noticeable:

Yellow is noticeably lighter.
Magenta looks more red than 'pink',
Cyan is less rich.

I used the Kirkland glossy paper for the scan. Epson Perfection 1250
Pro scanner, Epson TWAIN 5.71a for the capture...

http://members.shaw.ca/robertrd/inkswab.jpg

I dunno.

I guess the fact that the raw swabs are noticeably different ain't
great...

Other opinions?

BD

Question: do you have any samples of the same photo (a real digital
photograph) printed with both inks on the same paper using the same
settings?
Post it if you have any. Swabs and color strips can be misleading were
as photos seem to be much more telling.
THX
Frank

 

[BD]

Post it if you have any. Swabs and color strips can be misleading were
as photos seem to be much more telling.
THX
Frank

Indeed I do. I'll post this evening. This is the printout that got me
worked up in the first place. I had intended to post the photo samples,
but elected to do the generic test page instead.

It's a 'leaf-green' tone that is thrown off - almost to the point where
it looks brownish. I tried to correct it in Photoshop, but have had no
luck.

 

[Yianni]

Hello Zakezuke,

You can't judge from the "button test" the colors. Because in other places
it's darker in other lighter. I do this test only for comparing colors with
eyes, and using about 10 tracks of ink and comparing this that is just next
to the first saturated ones.

 

[BD]

Question: do you have any samples of the same photo (a real digital
photograph) printed with both inks on the same paper using the same
settings?
Post it if you have any. Swabs and color strips can be misleading were
as photos seem to be much more telling.

Well, here's the best I could do.

The scans don't give a really representative image, but the delta
between oem and hc is fairly consistent with what I'm seeing. HC's
greens are considerably lighter, and closer to 'brown' than green.

The scans seem to take away some of the saturation. The print with oem
ink is pretty decent, actually.

http://members.shaw.ca/robertrd/green_original.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/robertrd/green_oem.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/robertrd/green_hc.jpg

Very frustrating...

BD

 

[zakezuke]

Well, here's the best I could do.

The scans don't give a really representative image, but the delta
between oem and hc is fairly consistent with what I'm seeing. HC's
greens are considerably lighter, and closer to 'brown' than green.

The scans seem to take away some of the saturation. The print with oem
ink is pretty decent, actually.

http://members.shaw.ca/robertrd/green_original.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/robertrd/green_oem.jpg
http://members.shaw.ca/robertrd/green_hc.jpg

Very frustrating...
-Original
http://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chitzenitza14yz.jpg

-MIS bci-6 compatable HP Glossy paper pro

http://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chitzenitza1bc600015fc.jpg

-Hobbicolors wc8 on a bci-6 printer HP glossy paper pro

http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chitzenitza1bci700013nw.jpg

Scanner mp760
Printed using EZ photo print.

Given your swabs, the colorshift increased scans showing increased red
and green... while I have never met hobbicolors WC-6 ink, your results
look exactly what i'd expect from putting hobbicolors wc8 ink in a
bci-6 printer. If i'm right it may be possible to set your printer to
japanese mode and print using the ink you have and have it be
reasonably decent, and heck on par with a ip4200.

But feel free to print off my original and see for your self.

 

[BD]

bci-6 printer. If i'm right it may be possible to set your printer to
japanese mode and print using the ink you have and have it be

I'll research this, as I believe that part of the process whereby I
enabled CD printing on my 5000 also put it in 'Japanese' mode...

But am I hearing that this mode also alters the printer's color gamut
slightly? I may not be understanding you correctly...

BD

 

[zakezuke]

I'll research this, as I believe that part of the process whereby I
enabled CD printing on my 5000 also put it in 'Japanese' mode...

But am I hearing that this mode also alters the printer's color gamut
slightly? I may not be understanding you correctly...

BD

I believe the ink you are using is wc8 ink, not hobbicolors wc6 ink.
WC8 should be spot on with bci-7 which is what the Japanese pixmas
used, rather than cli-8 which is for the newer world market pixmas.

I could be wrong, I am evaluating something at great distance from me,
but everything you say fits my hypothesis.

The problem is I lack accurate data on whether one can with the
American printer use the American driver, and print using the Japanese
ink. I don't have a desktop pixma, only an AIO, which I "know" for a
fact requires the Japanese driver. But based on everything i've read,
the desktop pixmas don't behave in the same way.

 

[BD]

I believe the ink you are using is wc8 ink, not hobbicolors wc6 ink.

WC8 should be spot on with bci-7 which is what the Japanese pixmas
used, rather than cli-8 which is for the newer world market pixmas.

Mmm.

I may strike up a conversation with the Hobbicolors folks and discuss
it with them - I also may try to get one more kit, to make sure.

I guess it's also not a bad idea to try another formulation -
Formulabs, MIS, etc.

Another thing that might be worthwhile, is - if someone is willing to
indulge me - print a copy of my test image on their printer, using
*definitive* wc6 ink, and then mail it to me - COD or something - and
based on that I would have a comparison. If I ended up with 2 printouts
of the same image that looked different in spite of having been printed
with the same ink *presumably*, then I could contact the vendor and ask
them to be *sure* I had gotten the right stuff.

But meanwhile, I think I'll contact my Ebay seller, and strike up a
dialog about it.

 

[measekite]

Yianni wrote:



It's all very frustrating.

Is my situation 'unique' here? Or am I just demanding more from these
inks than most people...? Seems to me that 'grey' should not come out
looking 'green...' I hear so much good press about Hobbicolors, and yet
on the first try I'm - really disappointed. ;-(

you do not know if the relabeler changed suppliers cause they will not
tell you nor will they tell you what you got cause they are afraid you
will go to their mfg/formulator and buy direct. That is what they told
me in a phone call. Unless you are a very high volume print user I
cannot understand why you want all of this grief. You have proven that
Canon provides the best results so maybe you should stick with it.