Attn: Canon PIXMA & i Series Users

[measekite]

It has been said that Epson Pigmented inks last longer than any Dye
based ink. I agree with that. They also say that Canon BCI 6? inks
fade and many times fade rapidly. The prints, many of which are 5
months old made by my Canon IP4000 have not appeared to have faded.
Most of them have been printed on Canon Photo Paper Pro and a few from
Surething glossy. I have not printed at yet with the Costco/Kirkland
(Ilford?) paper.

*What has been your experience with faded prints? Please state the
brand/source of ink, the printer model, and the paper used.*

If Canon OEM inks or Canon 3rd party inks fade with certain papers like
is said all over this NG, I certainly would like to know. So far all of
the talk has been from non Canon users.

 

[SleeperMan]

It has been said that Epson Pigmented inks last longer than any Dye
based ink. I agree with that. They also say that Canon BCI 6? inks
fade and many times fade rapidly. The prints, many of which are 5
months old made by my Canon IP4000 have not appeared to have faded.
Most of them have been printed on Canon Photo Paper Pro and a few from
Surething glossy. I have not printed at yet with the Costco/Kirkland
(Ilford?) paper.

*What has been your experience with faded prints? Please state the
brand/source of ink, the printer model, and the paper used.*

If Canon OEM inks or Canon 3rd party inks fade with certain papers
like is said all over this NG, I certainly would like to know. So
far all of the talk has been from non Canon users.

I printed a few photos on some cheap photo glossy(it came with a set of inks
for Epson which i bought for a friend) and after more than 6-8 months they
are same as new. And at the time i used refill ink (local, not some widely
known one, but supposely of a good quality.
But i must admit that a photo on canon Photo Paper Pro looks WAAAY
better...but i can't judge since they are only 3-4 months old. Now i use
cheappy only for occasional prints for showing stuff at the work. I still
have original inks, but still not sure if i should refill or not...

 

[SleeperMan]

I printed a few photos on some cheap photo glossy(it came with a set
of inks for Epson which i bought for a friend) and after more than
6-8 months they are same as new. And at the time i used refill ink
(local, not some widely known one, but supposely of a good quality.
But i must admit that a photo on canon Photo Paper Pro looks WAAAY
better...but i can't judge since they are only 3-4 months old. Now i
use cheappy only for occasional prints for showing stuff at the work.
I still have original inks, but still not sure if i should refill or
not...

forgot to tell thos old pics were made with i550...new ones with ip4000

 

[Caitlin]

It has been said that Epson Pigmented inks last longer than any Dye based
ink. I agree with that. They also say that Canon BCI 6? inks fade and
many times fade rapidly. The prints, many of which are 5 months old made
by my Canon IP4000 have not appeared to have faded. Most of them have
been printed on Canon Photo Paper Pro and a few from Surething glossy. I
have not printed at yet with the Costco/Kirkland (Ilford?) paper.

*What has been your experience with faded prints? Please state the
brand/source of ink, the printer model, and the paper used.*
If Canon OEM inks or Canon 3rd party inks fade with certain papers like is
said all over this NG, I certainly would like to know. So far all of the
talk has been from non Canon users.

I am a Canon IP4000 owner, and a happy one at that. However I read studies,
and take note of other people's experiences (that are more than 5 months
old). Apart from several test studies that have been posted here many times,
also see here a Canon users real life experiences using an S9000 (same inks
as IP series) : http://www.pbase.com/phototalk_thh/2004_10_12_s9000_fading

These prints were kept in a rather 'hostile' environment, so undoubtedly
have suffered more than a print kept in more suitable conditions - but this,
and the accelerated deterioration studies simply highlight what will happen
more slowly in normal conditions.

It's unrealistic to expect to find a host of users with fading problems, as
fading in good conditions will take 5-10+ years, and such printers have not
been around anything like that long.

This is not a Canon vs. Epson issue. It's a dye vs. pigment issue. It just
happens that Canon make the best dye based consumer printers on the market
today, and Epson the best pigment based printers. And the hard fact is that
pigment inks last much longer. This isn't worth arguing about - it's a fact.

This fact needs to be known by users when they are making an educated choice
in printers, so they can decide if this is an important issue for them. I
was not aware of this when I bought my IP4000, which I have been very happy
with overall. However as I frequently print photos from family members and
wish them to still be there for future generations, just like the photos I
am currently restoring of my grandparents are, I will eventually be buying a
pigment based printer as well.

 

[measekite]

I am a Canon IP4000 owner, and a happy one at that. However I read studies,
and take note of other people's experiences (that are more than 5 months
old). Apart from several test studies that have been posted here many times,
also see here a Canon users real life experiences using an S9000 (same inks
as IP series) : http://www.pbase.com/phototalk_thh/2004_10_12_s9000_fading

These prints were kept in a rather 'hostile' environment, so undoubtedly
have suffered more than a print kept in more suitable conditions - but this,
and the accelerated deterioration studies simply highlight what will happen
more slowly in normal conditions.

It's unrealistic to expect to find a host of users with fading problems, as
fading in good conditions will take 5-10+ years, and such printers have not
been around anything like that long.

This is not a Canon vs. Epson issue. It's a dye vs. pigment issue. It just
happens that Canon make the best dye based consumer printers on the market
today, and Epson the best pigment based printers.
*Amen!*

And the hard fact is that
pigment inks last much longer. This isn't worth arguing about - it's a fact.

Agreed!

This fact needs to be known by users when they are making an educated choice
in printers, so they can decide if this is an important issue for them. I
was not aware of this when I bought my IP4000,

I was. I still bought the Canon. I am hoping for 20 years worth of
prints. I can then print the ones I want to hang or look at frequently.

which I have been very happy

Me Too.

with overall. However as I frequently print photos from family members and
wish them to still be there for future generations, just like the photos I
am currently restoring of my grandparents are, I will eventually be buying a
pigment based printer as well.

Consider spraying them with a glossy lacquer type substance that artists
use. It dulls down some of the vibrancy but pigmented prints are also
less vibrant. Save the cost of another printer and inks. Once sprayed,
the chemical elements cannot get to the ink.

 

[Digital Sheep]

How about laminating them ???

That makes it better or worse ?

 

[measekite]

That also would extend the life of the prints.

How about laminating them ???

That makes it better or worse ?

 

[Arthur Entlich]

I may not be a Canon printer owner, but I sure have seen the results of
the fading of Canon inks on Canon paper.

But, I agree, let's hear from some owners of Canon printers using Canon
inks and papers.

Art

 

[measekite]

I am trying to gain information about Canon produced prints using either
Canon OEM or 3rd party Canon compatible inks used on Canon and other
brands of paper. Canon compatible inks are designed to print in Canon
printers and are claimed to be equalivent to the OEM inks. In that case
we can see if they fade as well. I am not as yet convinced weather all
of these ink paper combinations fade. That is why I ask for information
from Canon owners and users.

 

[SleeperMan]

I am a Canon IP4000 owner, and a happy one at that. However I read
studies, and take note of other people's experiences (that are more
than 5 months old). Apart from several test studies that have been
posted here many times, also see here a Canon users real life
experiences using an S9000 (same inks as IP series) :
http://www.pbase.com/phototalk_thh/2004_10_12_s9000_fading
These prints were kept in a rather 'hostile' environment, so
undoubtedly have suffered more than a print kept in more suitable
conditions - but this, and the accelerated deterioration studies
simply highlight what will happen more slowly in normal conditions.

It's unrealistic to expect to find a host of users with fading
problems, as fading in good conditions will take 5-10+ years, and
such printers have not been around anything like that long.

This is not a Canon vs. Epson issue. It's a dye vs. pigment issue. It
just happens that Canon make the best dye based consumer printers on
the market today, and Epson the best pigment based printers. And the
hard fact is that pigment inks last much longer. This isn't worth
arguing about - it's a fact.
This fact needs to be known by users when they are making an educated
choice in printers, so they can decide if this is an important issue
for them. I was not aware of this when I bought my IP4000, which I
have been very happy with overall. However as I frequently print
photos from family members and wish them to still be there for future
generations, just like the photos I am currently restoring of my
grandparents are, I will eventually be buying a pigment based printer
as well.

All agreed, just you forgot to mention that pigment ink doesn't shine...no
matter what gloss optimizer you use, they doesn't look even similar to dye
ones...

 

[PTRAVEL]

It has been said that Epson Pigmented inks last longer than any Dye based
ink. I agree with that. They also say that Canon BCI 6? inks fade and
many times fade rapidly. The prints, many of which are 5 months old made
by my Canon IP4000 have not appeared to have faded. Most of them have
been printed on Canon Photo Paper Pro and a few from Surething glossy. I
have not printed at yet with the Costco/Kirkland (Ilford?) paper.

*What has been your experience with faded prints? Please state the
brand/source of ink, the printer model, and the paper used.*

I have a bunch of photos that have been hanging in my office for more than a
year with no fading whatsoever. Photopaper Pro, Canon BCI6 ink on an i9100
printer.

 

[measekite]

Keep reporting. Thanks!

I have a bunch of photos that have been hanging in my office for more than a
year with no fading whatsoever. Photopaper Pro, Canon BCI6 ink on an i9100
printer.

 

[Colin D]

It has been said that Epson Pigmented inks last longer than any Dye
based ink. I agree with that. They also say that Canon BCI 6? inks
fade and many times fade rapidly. The prints, many of which are 5
months old made by my Canon IP4000 have not appeared to have faded.
Most of them have been printed on Canon Photo Paper Pro and a few from
Surething glossy. I have not printed at yet with the Costco/Kirkland
(Ilford?) paper.

*What has been your experience with faded prints? Please state the
brand/source of ink, the printer model, and the paper used.*

If Canon OEM inks or Canon 3rd party inks fade with certain papers like
is said all over this NG, I certainly would like to know. So far all of
the talk has been from non Canon users.

I have just bought a Canon i9950 (i9900 with the CD printing option),
and it's too early to say whether the fading will be an issue in my
situation.

However, I have just decommissioned a 7-year-old Epson 740, the print
heads being practically stuffed. But early on, prints from that printer
faded badly, magenta disappearing in a few months even behind glass.

I have a dry-mounting press and materials left from my chemical days, so
I tried dry-mounting and texturizing some 740 prints, and those have
lasted literally years on the wall without glass and with little if any
fading. Also, the heat appeared to do nothing to the dyes.

Texturizing film acts as a sealer and UV filter on the print, but, I
have realized belatedly that the act of dry-mounting - 10 minutes at
190F - really dries out the print paper, and with the tex film on the
front and the dry-mounting tissue on the back, the print is effectively
hermetically sealed in a very dry state. I am beginning to believe that
the amount of water in the paper or the dye-holding layer plays a
definite part in accelerating the fading process.

This means that laminating or lacquer coating a print might or might not
arrest fading depending on moisture trapped in the print when laminated
or coated. Perhaps thoroughly drying the print with heat beforehand
might be a good idea.

I wonder if anyone else has tried dry-mounting, and what the results
were?

Colin

 

[Caitlin]

I have just bought a Canon i9950 (i9900 with the CD printing option),
and it's too early to say whether the fading will be an issue in my
situation.

However, I have just decommissioned a 7-year-old Epson 740, the print
heads being practically stuffed. But early on, prints from that printer
faded badly, magenta disappearing in a few months even behind glass.

I have a dry-mounting press and materials left from my chemical days, so
I tried dry-mounting and texturizing some 740 prints, and those have
lasted literally years on the wall without glass and with little if any
fading. Also, the heat appeared to do nothing to the dyes.

Texturizing film acts as a sealer and UV filter on the print, but, I
have realized belatedly that the act of dry-mounting - 10 minutes at
190F - really dries out the print paper, and with the tex film on the
front and the dry-mounting tissue on the back, the print is effectively
hermetically sealed in a very dry state. I am beginning to believe that
the amount of water in the paper or the dye-holding layer plays a
definite part in accelerating the fading process.

This means that laminating or lacquer coating a print might or might not
arrest fading depending on moisture trapped in the print when laminated
or coated. Perhaps thoroughly drying the print with heat beforehand
might be a good idea.

I wonder if anyone else has tried dry-mounting, and what the results
were?

Colin

It is certainly the case that protection from the air will have a
significant impact on dye stability - simply because any deterioration
involves a chemical reaction, and without air and moisture(or any other
external substance) to react to such reactions will be limited.

I'm not familiar with the process of dry mounting, but obviously some of the
questions would be - the impact of the board (is it acid free?), how do you
separate the image from the mounting if the mount itself deteriorates with
time? These questions are more related to archival prints that you will be
keeping for 50-100 year at which point issues of conservation will come into
play and which adhesion to other media may complicate.

There is a school of thought in my profession (film conservation) that sees
acetate film vacuum sealed before being stored at low temperature - this
thereby removing issues of humidity. However it also lessens accessibility,
ability to examine film on a regular basis, and is resource intensive.

Sealing a photo, just like framing it or putting it in an acid free album,
will see a drastic improvement in print stability. You simply need to ensure
that whatever steps you take do not rule out any future options (for
instance restoring a photo that has been laminated could prove very
difficult)

 

[tHatDudeUK]

That also would extend the life of the prints.

You could also store them on CD and print out later at your leisure.

 

[PC Medic]

Have a Canon i560, iP3000 and S520 now and have had others in the past and
no fade issues here.
I have several photos of the grand-daughter from when she was born (she's 2
now) and look just as good as the day I printed them.

 

[Stick Stickus]

I have been using canon printers for the last two years (i250, i350, i865 &
mp370), and use this to produce prints from the Photo papers I sell in the
shop I run, Cartridge World (Oxford). The paper is Cartridge World's own and
is mounted within polypockets so that customers may see the quality of our
papers. In two years I have seen no fading at all.
Hope this helps.
Dave

 

[Mapanari]

"Caitlin" <[email protected]>
wrotecom.au:

I am a Canon IP4000 owner, and a happy one at that. However I read
studies, and take note of other people's experiences (that are more than
5 months old). Apart from several test studies that have been posted
here many times, also see here a Canon users real life experiences using
an S9000 (same inks as IP series) :
http://www.pbase.com/phototalk_thh/2004_10_12_s9000_fading

These prints were kept in a rather 'hostile' environment, so undoubtedly
have suffered more than a print kept in more suitable conditions - but
this, and the accelerated deterioration studies simply highlight what
will happen more slowly in normal conditions.

It's unrealistic to expect to find a host of users with fading problems,
as fading in good conditions will take 5-10+ years, and such printers
have not been around anything like that long.

This is not a Canon vs. Epson issue. It's a dye vs. pigment issue. It
just happens that Canon make the best dye based consumer printers on the
market today, and Epson the best pigment based printers. And the hard
fact is that pigment inks last much longer. This isn't worth arguing
about - it's a fact.

This fact needs to be known by users when they are making an educated
choice in printers, so they can decide if this is an important issue for
them. I was not aware of this when I bought my IP4000, which I have been
very happy with overall. However as I frequently print photos from
family members and wish them to still be there for future generations,
just like the photos I am currently restoring of my grandparents are, I
will eventually be buying a pigment based printer as well.

You can install a pigment based black cart in the iP3000 or a dye based
black one.

Wonder why you couldn't refill the carts with pigment type ink if the
nozzles seem to handle the black just as well?

 

[measekite]

The Print head is composed of different types of nozzles to handle the
ink that goes through them.

 

[Ron Cohen]

You can install a pigment based black cart in the iP3000 or a dye based
black one.

Wonder why you couldn't refill the carts with pigment type ink if the
nozzles seem to handle the black just as well?

The above statement is incorrect. The iP3000 only has a pigmented black
BCI-3ebk and does not use a BCI-6 photo black cartridge. It only has four
tanks installed - BCI-6c/m/y and BCI-3ebk. The iP4000 has five tanks BCI-6
c/m/y/k and BCI-3ebk. You would damage the printhead by putting pigmented
black in a dye based cartridge. Putting dye based black in a pigmented
cartridge might not cause damage, but why risk it when the correct ink is
available at low cost?