.NET/C# versus PHP

[Erwin Moller]

Ben Voigt [C++ MVP] schreef:

"Erwin Moller"


Congratulations, that's three people in a row who don't understand sarcasm.

Sarcasm has a point, a punchline, or even humor in it.
This is just a random error/typo.

Erwin Moller

--
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to
make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult."
-- C.A.R. Hoare

 

[Michael B. Trausch]

.NET is Windows
only - so you are limited to the platform on which you can deploy it.

I am really amazed at the number of times I have seen this statement.
Not just in this thread, either.

..NET is the single most cross platform technology that Microsoft has
created. It runs on more platforms and more architectures than Java
does. _How_ is it that there are so many ignorant people who do not
know this? Do you guys run around with your eyes wide shut and never
take a peek outside of your own cubicle?

--- Mike

 

[Cor Ligthert[MVP]]

You are probably more a guy who never wants to drive a Ferrari and goes for
a GM brand instead

(Have a look at the websites what they use)

Cor

 

[Michael Austin]

You are probably more a guy who never wants to drive a Ferrari and goes
for a GM brand instead

(Have a look at the websites what they use)

Cor

Ahh couldn't keep it to a professional level huh? You have no idea who I
am or what I drive - nor do you need to know - nor is it relevant to the
technical discussion at hand.

I don't care what "they" use. It was not relevant to the discussion and
the quoting of some ancient article that DB2 was dead (so to speak). I
was merely pointing out that DB2 is very much alive in the corporate
world. (obviously not so much on the "free" hobby-type blog sites that
clutter the bandwidth these days...)

 

[Michael Austin]

http://www.mono-project.com/

while M$ may have released .NET etc.. for Linux - I for one have not
seen any indication that anything running .NET is anything but Windows.

 

[Michael B. Trausch]

while M$ may have released .NET etc.. for Linux - I for one have not
seen any indication that anything running .NET is anything but
Windows.

You _so_ didn't look at the link.

Microsoft is not behind the Mono project.

You can check out the Banshee project. Banshee is an excellent media
player that runs on top of the CLR. Actually, it runs on UNIX systems
(Linux, BSD, and OS X) but not (yet) Windows. It will run on Windows
soon, though. (The reason it doesn't currently is a small dependency
on a native code library that doesn't yet work on Windows.) Also, I
have clients that run code on Mono, developed for use on a UNIX
(specifically, Linux) system. That same code also runs on Windows,
though that's because it is 100% managed code, not because Windows is
the intended or even recommended runtime environment.

--- Mike

 

[Pavel Minaev]

I have found all scripting based languages , eg Javascript, PHP, CGI/
Perl, .ASP, awful to use.

I asked my query since I have problems getting people who
understand .NET to help me, and also finding hosts for .NET 3.5. There
is also a CPU issue as the .NET architecture is certainly slower.

..NET architecture (what's that even supposed to mean?) is slower than
_what_?

It's not slower than Java, and it's definitely heck of a lot faster
than any dynamic language, including PHP.

I have seen a lot of renewed interest in Python and Ruby, but when I
looked at them briefly they seemed to lack any real class
encapsulation.

Not at all. Python, well, sort of true - it has conventions (like
private fields start with underscore), but they aren't enforced.
Though keep in mind that, if I am determined, I can just as well get
access to your private fields in .NET, too (via reflection), so it
doesn't matter as much. In Ruby, all fields are always implicitly
private, and methods can be declared as such.

 

[Jerry Stuckle]

You obviously did not attend the corporate meetings as I did when it
was released in the late 1980's. Do you know much of the history of
DB2? It was hailed as the DBMS that would re-write all data storage
and would be linked into a new networking architecture driven by OS2.
No one ever talked about MS and IBM put millions into DB2 and its new
thinking. It lost its money and the returns were tiny compared to the
costs. IBM's share value dropped over 60% and the company went into
crisis. DB2 was revamped and re-deployed in client forms to try and
save on costs.

So maybe you need to learn some of the facts before telling me my view
is limited.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_IBM#1990.E2.80.931999:_IBM.27s_near_disaster_and_rebirth
"on January 19, 1993, IBM announced a US$8.10 billion loss for the
1992 financial year, which was then the largest single-year corporate
loss in U.S. history"

Actually, I WORKED for IBM in the late 1980's. At that time, DB2 was by
far the dominant RDBMS.

Yes, IBM posted a loss in 1992. However, DB2 was NOT part of that loss.
The DB2 product line posted a large profit for the company; without
it, IBM would have had an even larger loss.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
(e-mail address removed)
==================

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

I have developed in .NET and C# since 2004 and find it very good due
to the powerful IDE for .NET and the classes in C# (not as good as
Smalltalk though). I would use Java if the IDE's were better.

There are plenty of good IDE's for Java.

Whenever I ask for any commercial help from web design companies, no
one works with .NET and they all use PHP. I was at a meetup session
with "experts" on the Web, and when I mentioned .NET to one he pulled
a face and said PHP was the way to go.

Lots of people have preferences.

I have looked at PHP and found it awful: you cannot compile it, the
class structure is very limited, and the IDE environment is basic. I
cannot think of much good to say about it. The only positive is PHP is
quicker to use (execution time).

You can not count on that being generally the case.

.NET is definitely slow in the same way DB2 was slow versus IMS when
DB2 was hailed as the big change. It made development quick but used
heavy CPU and never took off.

DB2 are more widely use than IMS today.

Is there any popular view on this as I am interested to see what the
future may hold. I am now using .NET 3.5 and a lot of web hosting
companies do not even support .NET 3.5!

You can also find web hosting companies still using PHP 4.4 (and
MySQL 3).

Some of them does not keep up with new versions.

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

That depends. There are good Java IDE's out there and depending on your
requirements some of them match op the the level set by Visual Studio.

Considering that features seems to flow:

IntelliJ IDEA -> Eclipse - MS Visual Studio

then I would say that VS tries to match up.

You /could/ compile PHP but it's not meant to do it. The way it works is
completely the opposite of .NET. It's meant to generate and process the
source files on the fly when a request is made. Various caching
mechanisms are available to reduce the load. When you come from a .NET
background this may seem very weird,

Compiling a language like PHP would most likely not gain anything
for a typical web app.

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

I have seen a lot of renewed interest in Python and Ruby, but when I
looked at them briefly they seemed to lack any real class
encapsulation.

Both Python and Ruby supports encapsulation.

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

Where do you get these figures? Do they include private servers?

www.netcraft.com track 200 million web sites.

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

I had not considered Flash until
now, but I can see that would be just as good, as Actionscript uses
XML, and also allows SQL. In fact, Flash is very easy to use.

ActionScript and SQL ????

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

IIS runs on Linux?

I am sure that he intended to write Windows.

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

Cor Ligthert[MVP] schreef:

The mainadvantage of PHP is that it is cheap/free?
I don't agree to that, allthough I must say most M$ product are
expensive in my humble opinion.

Hmm, I have been a programmer for many years, but the reason I like PHP
and switched almost exclusively to PHP for all my serverside needs, is:
- It has a Open Source licence (almost BSD)
- Its simplicity. PHP is easy to learn, but has enough serious libs
(PEAR/PECL) to expand it to your liking.
- I can express myself very easily in PHP, something I find harder to do
in Perl, VB, Java. Perl because I just dislike the notation and
codingstyle. VB is just messy and illogical to me. Java has the problem
that you must learn enormous amounts of classes before you can do simple
things, and UNDERSTAND why it works. ;-) I do like Java though.

I would say that the huge number of free ready to use PHP apps
in the CMS/community category is also a strong driver for PHP
usage.

Some of them are crap but there are also some good stuff. And
both .NET, Java and Python are somewhat following PHP in that
category.

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

mono-project.com

Yeah .....

But remember to check:
http://go-mono.com/status/

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

That explains a lot. While I believe netcraft is unbiased, I've never
found their "surveys" to be scientifically executed, nor very accurate.

It is a huge sample.

And I believe they add sites if you inquire on them.

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

I live in the Orlando/Tampa/Gainseville Florida area. When I went
looking for contract/perm jobs a year and a half ago, just about every
single one was for .NET. PHP jobs were almost non-existent. There was
an occasional one in Jacksonville or in the Ft. Lauderdale area. So I
guess your results of .NET vs PHP jobs must depend upon your location.

dice.com finds:

1432 hits on PHP
3845 hits on C#

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

It's interesting because Microsoft itself is trying to move
away from ASP.NET and more towards a webservice based architecture
(WCF, Silverlight, ASP.NET MVC).

AFAIK then MS is not replacing ASP.NET web forms witH ASP.NET MVC - they
are supplementing it.

I am always impressed with the speed of .NET web sites, however I have
never found one that has to handle the traffic of an Amazon, Yahoo or
Facebook. Does anyone here know of a *BIG* .NET site?

microsoft.com and myspace.com are both pretty big !

Arne

 

[Jerry Stuckle]

It is a huge sample.

And I believe they add sites if you inquire on them.

Arne

So? Huge does not equate to valid. A common misconception from
non-statisticians.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
(e-mail address removed)
==================