.NET/C# versus PHP

[Logician]

I have developed in .NET and C# since 2004 and find it very good due
to the powerful IDE for .NET and the classes in C# (not as good as
Smalltalk though). I would use Java if the IDE's were better.

Whenever I ask for any commercial help from web design companies, no
one works with .NET and they all use PHP. I was at a meetup session
with "experts" on the Web, and when I mentioned .NET to one he pulled
a face and said PHP was the way to go.

I have looked at PHP and found it awful: you cannot compile it, the
class structure is very limited, and the IDE environment is basic. I
cannot think of much good to say about it. The only positive is PHP is
quicker to use (execution time).

..NET is definitely slow in the same way DB2 was slow versus IMS when
DB2 was hailed as the big change. It made development quick but used
heavy CPU and never took off.

Is there any popular view on this as I am interested to see what the
future may hold. I am now using .NET 3.5 and a lot of web hosting
companies do not even support .NET 3.5!

 

[Pavel Minaev]

I have developed in .NET and C# since 2004 and find it very good due
to the powerful IDE for .NET and the classes in C# (not as good as
Smalltalk though). I would use Java if the IDE's were better.

Whenever I ask for any commercial help from web design companies, no
one works with .NET and they all use PHP. I was at a meetup session
with "experts" on the Web, and when I mentioned .NET to one he pulled
a face and said PHP was the way to go.

I have looked at PHP and found it awful: you cannot compile it, the
class structure is very limited, and the IDE environment is basic. I
cannot think of much good to say about it. The only positive is PHP is
quicker to use (execution time).

.NET is definitely slow in the same way DB2 was slow versus IMS when
DB2 was hailed as the big change. It made development quick but used
heavy CPU and never took off.

No matter what else, .NET is definitely not slower that PHP. In every
sense.

Is there any popular view on this as I am interested to see what the
future may hold. I am now using .NET 3.5 and a lot of web hosting
companies do not even support .NET 3.5!

Sure. The "popular view" is simple:

If you need it cheap and quick and dirty, use PHP - plenty of cheap
coders, plenty of cheap hosters, lots of code already written for most
things. Downsides: cheap coders aren't good (and the ones that aren't
cheap tend to prefer things other than PHP for the sake of their
sanity - most have moved on to Rails or other similar frameworks for
different languages), cheap hosters aren't good either, and lots of
that code that's written is pretty awful.

If you have a clear development process, want a clean design,
maintainable code, and so on, you go either for Java (tons of Web
frameworks, really, but JSF, Struts and Spring MVC are probably the
most popular) or ASP.NET. Other options are available (Python/Ruby and
dozens of associated frameworks) but generally less widespread and
more fragmented. This means you generally have to pay more for
hosting, though.

This isn't as clear-cut in practice, of course. Obviously, nothing
stops you from developing neatly in PHP, or from making a mess in
ASP.NET. However, PHP as a language really encourages mess, so why
choose the worst tool for the job? It also has absolutely nothing
going in favor against, say, Python, which is a far cleaner language
otherwise (and actually has Unicode support...).

Of course, if you want to target the "cheap & quick" niche, then you
get stuck with PHP regardless of your preferences - so long as it pays.

 

[rf]

I have developed in .NET and C# since 2004 and find it very good due
to the powerful IDE for .NET and the classes in C# (not as good as
Smalltalk though). I would use Java if the IDE's were better.

Whenever I ask for any commercial help from web design companies, no
one works with .NET and they all use PHP. I was at a meetup session
with "experts" on the Web, and when I mentioned .NET to one he pulled
a face and said PHP was the way to go.

I have looked at PHP and found it awful: you cannot compile it, the
class structure is very limited, and the IDE environment is basic. I
cannot think of much good to say about it. The only positive is PHP is
quicker to use (execution time).

.NET is definitely slow in the same way DB2 was slow versus IMS when
DB2 was hailed as the big change. It made development quick but used
heavy CPU and never took off.

Is there any popular view on this as I am interested to see what the
future may hold. I am now using .NET 3.5 and a lot of web hosting
companies do not even support .NET 3.5!

The vast majority of web servers run linux. .NET does not run on linux.

 

[Cor Ligthert[MVP]]

Jensen,

In the end it all comes down to personal flavor and customer requests.

There is too something as responsibility too the customer, as you create a
lousy maintanable website then the customer will be at the end worse off.

But as you let him pay a very low price, then that responsibility is of
course at his side. You cannot buy a Rolex for $ 25.

jmo

Cor

 

[Pavel Minaev]

The vast majority of web servers run linux. .NET does not run on linux.

Just for the record - the specific numbers are ~30% for IIS (which is
obviously all Linux), and ~60% together for Apache (which is
overwhelmingly Linux or other Unix-like systems, even though in theory
there may be an odd Apache/Win32 server out there) and nginx (Linux/
Unix-like only).

Of course, in practice, this means that both solutions are popular
enough that finding a hoster is not a problem at all; and if you're
doing solution for a moderately large client, they're most likely
going to have their own web servers anyway, and will usually run
whatever platform is needed for the solution.

 

[Logician]

Jensen,


There is too something as responsibility too the customer, as you create a
lousy maintanable website then the customer will be at the end worse off.

But as you let him pay a very low price, then that responsibility is of
course at his side. You cannot buy a Rolex for $ 25.

jmo

Cor

I have to say that I really like Java and if the IDE was better I
would use it. I also like .NET and C#.

I have found all scripting based languages , eg Javascript, PHP, CGI/
Perl, .ASP, awful to use.

I asked my query since I have problems getting people who
understand .NET to help me, and also finding hosts for .NET 3.5. There
is also a CPU issue as the .NET architecture is certainly slower.

I have seen a lot of renewed interest in Python and Ruby, but when I
looked at them briefly they seemed to lack any real class
encapsulation.

Anyone who has used Smalltalk/ORACLE will have seen how good OO
systems are really easy to use and maintain. Sadly, Smalltalk failed
in market.

I am especially now building visual based systems, trying to repeat
this kind of behaviour:
http://www.visualthesaurus.com/land...ource=awad&utm_medium=default&utm_campaign=VT

This kind of visual searching is now very common and I have seen at
least 12 apps doing this. I doubt if PHP or Ruby could do that. .NET
can do but the code is very messy needing a lot of Javascript. Mostly
people seem to use Java for the visual based searches.

 

[Michael Fesser]

..oO(Logician)

I am especially now building visual based systems, trying to repeat
this kind of behaviour:
http://www.visualthesaurus.com/land...ource=awad&utm_medium=default&utm_campaign=VT

This kind of visual searching is now very common and I have seen at
least 12 apps doing this. I doubt if PHP or Ruby could do that. .NET
can do but the code is very messy needing a lot of Javascript. Mostly
people seem to use Java for the visual based searches.

Sure, but the reason is not that Java is the superior language for doing
such things, but simply because you can run Java applets in a browser.
With PHP you would need more JavaScript or Flash to achieve the same,
but of course it's possible.

Micha

 

[Jerry Stuckle]

Just for the record - the specific numbers are ~30% for IIS (which is
obviously all Linux), and ~60% together for Apache (which is
overwhelmingly Linux or other Unix-like systems, even though in theory
there may be an odd Apache/Win32 server out there) and nginx (Linux/
Unix-like only).

Of course, in practice, this means that both solutions are popular
enough that finding a hoster is not a problem at all; and if you're
doing solution for a moderately large client, they're most likely
going to have their own web servers anyway, and will usually run
whatever platform is needed for the solution.

Where do you get these figures? Do they include private servers?

My experience is much different. Apache/Linux is much more prevalent
(and cheaper).

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
(e-mail address removed)
==================

 

[Jerry Stuckle]

Jensen,


There is too something as responsibility too the customer, as you create
a lousy maintanable website then the customer will be at the end worse off.

But as you let him pay a very low price, then that responsibility is of
course at his side. You cannot buy a Rolex for $ 25.

jmo

Cor

An unmaintainable site can be created in any language. A maintainable
site can be created in any language.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
(e-mail address removed)
==================

 

[Logician]

.oO(Logician)



Sure, but the reason is not that Java is the superior language for doing
such things, but simply because you can run Java applets in a browser.
With PHP you would need more JavaScript or Flash to achieve the same,
but of course it's possible.

Micha

Fair point. Interestingly of all the apps I have seen using Visual
searches, they ALL have used Java. I had not considered Flash until
now, but I can see that would be just as good, as Actionscript uses
XML, and also allows SQL. In fact, Flash is very easy to use.

I am wondering now why the apps I have seen all use Java in this
context.

I just looked at http://www.quintura.com/ and that seems to be using
Javascript, contrary to the above claims, but the site does not draw
the lines, or show the attribute connections which I think are
important.

 

[rf]

Just for the record - the specific numbers are ~30% for IIS (which is
obviously all Linux),

IIS runs on Linux?

 

[Cor Ligthert[MVP]]

An unmaintainable site can be created in any language. A maintainable
site can be created in any language.

Yes, but I read to often in this thread that the main advance from PHP is
that it is cheap, laborcost is seldom the cheapest part of a good
maintainable website.

Therefore either we have to forget that PHP is cheap or we have to accept
that this is about a Rolex for $25

Cor

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Where do you get these figures? Do they include private servers?

There is a chart right here on this page.
Says Apache 46%, Microsoft 29%.
http://news.netcraft.com/

Also says, "Apache remains in the lead, as it has since 1996, with a
total of over 106 million sites, followed by Microsoft-IIS with over 67
million and QQ with almost 29 million."

My experience is much different. Apache/Linux is much more prevalent
(and cheaper).

Certainly cheaper. <g>

 

[Logician]

An unmaintainable site can be created in any language.  A maintainable
site can be created in any language.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
(e-mail address removed)
==================- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was really trying to gauge where the market is going.

What I see is that a lot of people are seeing .NET/C# as history and
they are digging up old languages such as Python for new
developments.

I really get issues trying to get any tech help and local web
companies just use PHP and other scripting languages. In fact a local
network/PC specialist had never even heard of .NET when I asked if he
could install it for me.

 

[Logician]

IIS runs on Linux?

That confused me as well.

 

[rush]

I have developed in .NET and C# since 2004 and find it very good due
to the powerful IDE for .NET and the classes in C# (not as good as
Smalltalk though). I would use Java if the IDE's were better.

If you are open minded, I would suggest that you tryout Seaside/
Smalltalk combination. Seaside is very interesting since it provides
programming model in many ways similar to desktop apps. Then you add
full Smalltalk class library, and full Smalltalk development
environment, and you get pretty powerfull mix.

rush
http://www.cloud208.com/

 

[Erwin Moller]

Cor Ligthert[MVP] schreef:
100% agree there, Jerry. ;-)

Yes, but I read to often in this thread that the main advance from PHP
is that it is cheap, laborcost is seldom the cheapest part of a good
maintainable website.

The mainadvantage of PHP is that it is cheap/free?
I don't agree to that, allthough I must say most M$ product are
expensive in my humble opinion.

Hmm, I have been a programmer for many years, but the reason I like PHP
and switched almost exclusively to PHP for all my serverside needs, is:
- It has a Open Source licence (almost BSD)
- Its simplicity. PHP is easy to learn, but has enough serious libs
(PEAR/PECL) to expand it to your liking.
- I can express myself very easily in PHP, something I find harder to do
in Perl, VB, Java. Perl because I just dislike the notation and
codingstyle. VB is just messy and illogical to me. Java has the problem
that you must learn enormous amounts of classes before you can do simple
things, and UNDERSTAND why it works. ;-) I do like Java though.

So for me PHP offers the best of all worlds: You can use OO when it
suites you. You don't have to use/learn complex libs/classes unless you
feel like it. And it is very easy to code structured in PHP. It is also
hosted all over the world.

But I am very aware this is a very personal preference. Next programmer
might have other needs/preferences.

But I agree with you that the price of PHP (0$) is not the most
important selling point for PHP.
Allthough the fact it is open source IS important to me.

just my 2 cent.

Regards,
Erwin Moller

Therefore either we have to forget that PHP is cheap or we have to
accept that this is about a Rolex for $25

Cor

--
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to
make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult."
-- C.A.R. Hoare

 

[Erwin Moller]

Logician schreef:

That confused me as well.

Me too.
Must have been some typo.

Regards,
Erwin Moller


--
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to
make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult."
-- C.A.R. Hoare

 

[IanR]

mono-project.com

..Net on Windows, Linux and Mac

 

[Erwin Moller]

Logician schreef:

Hi,


I was really trying to gauge where the market is going.

What I see is that a lot of people are seeing .NET/C# as history and
they are digging up old languages such as Python for new
developments.

I think the general dislike concerning Microsofts behaviour over the
years plays an important role in this too.
And .NET = Microsoft.
I am totally fed up with them. Many are. They did too many evil things
to be trusted in my opinion.

But that DOESN'T make C# a bad language of course.
(I am not experienced with C#, and I am aware that I also post in a C#
group. So let it be clear I don't attack C# in any way since I am not
authorative enough to comment on it.)

I really get issues trying to get any tech help and local web
companies just use PHP and other scripting languages. In fact a local
network/PC specialist had never even heard of .NET when I asked if he
could install it for me.

Hehe. ;-)
If he was running *nix he could try MONO, although I don't know how
compatible that is with newer versions of .NET.

Maybe you should consider joining the PHP community then?
In comp.lang.php you can get great help.
But, of course, the most important question is: Will you like PHP if you
learn more about it?
And please don't judge PHP by the many stinking pieces of code you can
find on the web. Since PHP is so easy to learn, it attracks many
would-be programmers, and you probably know what code they produce.
If you are a sincere/good programmer, you will code things the right way
very quickly.
Also, many IDEs exist for PHP. I expect you can find one that suits your
needs. (I use Zend Studio, but you can also use Eclipse or Netbeans, or
any other of the hundreds IDE out there)

Just my 2 cent.

Regards,
Erwin Moller


--
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to
make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult."
-- C.A.R. Hoare