.NET/C# versus PHP

[Jerry Stuckle]

There is a chart right here on this page.
Says Apache 46%, Microsoft 29%.
http://news.netcraft.com/

Also says, "Apache remains in the lead, as it has since 1996, with a
total of over 106 million sites, followed by Microsoft-IIS with over 67
million and QQ with almost 29 million."


Certainly cheaper. <g>

That explains a lot. While I believe netcraft is unbiased, I've never
found their "surveys" to be scientifically executed, nor very accurate.

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[Jerry Stuckle]

Yes, but I read to often in this thread that the main advance from PHP
is that it is cheap, laborcost is seldom the cheapest part of a good
maintainable website.

Therefore either we have to forget that PHP is cheap or we have to
accept that this is about a Rolex for $25

Cor

I don't see how the two are related. Price does not equate to
maintainability.

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[Jerry Stuckle]

I was really trying to gauge where the market is going.

It's going wherever it wants If you can figure that out, you'll be
ahead of all of the "experts" in the business!

What I see is that a lot of people are seeing .NET/C# as history and
they are digging up old languages such as Python for new
developments.

A lot of people ALWAYS saw .NET/C# as history. But then some folks
though the same of COBOL, FORTRAN, C, SmallTalk, Java, PHP and every
other language out there. In some cases they were right (remember
SNOBOL? I thought not! ). But in many they were not.

I really get issues trying to get any tech help and local web
companies just use PHP and other scripting languages. In fact a local
network/PC specialist had never even heard of .NET when I asked if he
could install it for me.

If he's a Linux guru, that would make sense.

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JDS Computer Training Corp.
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[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

That explains a lot. While I believe netcraft is unbiased, I've never
found their "surveys" to be scientifically executed, nor very
accurate.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" ... <g>

 

[Logician]

It's going wherever it wants  If you can figure that out, you'll be
ahead of all of the "experts" in the business!




A lot of people ALWAYS saw .NET/C# as history.  But then some folks
though the same of COBOL, FORTRAN, C, SmallTalk, Java, PHP and every
other language out there.  In some cases they were right (remember
SNOBOL?  I thought not! ).  But in many they were not.


If he's a Linux guru, that would make sense.

Turned out the guy was one step from an idiot. He messed up my whole
system and I lost a lot of data. I then got in my regular guy who
sorted it in about 5 minutes.

 

[Logician]

Logician schreef:


Me too.
Must have been some typo.

Dunno, with IIS anything is possible.

Regards,
Erwin Moller



--
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to
make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the
other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult."
-- C.A.R. Hoare

 

[Michael Austin]

I have developed in .NET and C# since 2004 and find it very good due
to the powerful IDE for .NET and the classes in C# (not as good as
Smalltalk though). I would use Java if the IDE's were better.

Whenever I ask for any commercial help from web design companies, no
one works with .NET and they all use PHP. I was at a meetup session
with "experts" on the Web, and when I mentioned .NET to one he pulled
a face and said PHP was the way to go.

I have looked at PHP and found it awful: you cannot compile it, the
class structure is very limited, and the IDE environment is basic. I
cannot think of much good to say about it. The only positive is PHP is
quicker to use (execution time).

.NET is definitely slow in the same way DB2 was slow versus IMS when
DB2 was hailed as the big change. It made development quick but used
heavy CPU and never took off.

Is there any popular view on this as I am interested to see what the
future may hold. I am now using .NET 3.5 and a lot of web hosting
companies do not even support .NET 3.5!

If I am going online - I still have an aversion to using anything
Windows-based on the front-end exposed to the internet. Yeah you can
secure it but not as well as a lot of other platforms. .NET is Windows
only - so you are limited to the platform on which you can deploy it.
PHP basically gives you a fast and dirty/messy environment that can run
on any platform depending on your needs. If you only need a Windows box,
great, but should you need something bigger, you are pretty much stuck.
With PHP, I can move it to a REAL computing environment generally
without making a single coding and/or configuration change.

As for DB2 - you obviously have a very limited view of what it does and
where it is deployed. I have seen DB2 in the corporate world all over
the place.

 

[Jerry Stuckle]

I have developed in .NET and C# since 2004 and find it very good due
to the powerful IDE for .NET and the classes in C# (not as good as
Smalltalk though). I would use Java if the IDE's were better.

Whenever I ask for any commercial help from web design companies, no
one works with .NET and they all use PHP. I was at a meetup session
with "experts" on the Web, and when I mentioned .NET to one he pulled
a face and said PHP was the way to go.

I have looked at PHP and found it awful: you cannot compile it, the
class structure is very limited, and the IDE environment is basic. I
cannot think of much good to say about it. The only positive is PHP is
quicker to use (execution time).

.NET is definitely slow in the same way DB2 was slow versus IMS when
DB2 was hailed as the big change. It made development quick but used
heavy CPU and never took off.

Uh, excuse me? DB2 is one of the most heavily used relational databases
in the world.

Is there any popular view on this as I am interested to see what the
future may hold. I am now using .NET 3.5 and a lot of web hosting
companies do not even support .NET 3.5!

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
(e-mail address removed)
==================

 

[beegee]

I live in the Orlando/Tampa/Gainseville Florida area. When I went
looking for contract/perm jobs a year and a half ago, just about every
single one was for .NET. PHP jobs were almost non-existent.

Yes, that is the reality here in Westchester County (right outside
NYC). It's interesting because Microsoft itself is trying to move
away from ASP.NET and more towards a webservice based architecture
(WCF, Silverlight, ASP.NET MVC). In fact, they are actually touting
the word "open source" about a lot lately. Python, Ruby, and
Javascript have been designated as MS blessed server side development
languages.

Personally, I love typeless, dynamic languages and think better
outside the rigid typed OO structure of Java and C#. It does take
more discipline to code well in php, ruby, or python but I find it's
much easier to cement myself into outdated practices using a strongly
typed language. The java and C# libaries are wonderful and usually
really fast but sometimes not (I once used a java bitmap library that
try/caught exceptions on bit assignment).

I am always impressed with the speed of .NET web sites, however I have
never found one that has to handle the traffic of an Amazon, Yahoo or
Facebook. Does anyone here know of a *BIG* .NET site?

Bob

 

[Logician]

Yes, that is the reality here in Westchester County (right outside
NYC).  It's interesting because Microsoft itself is trying to move
away from ASP.NET and more towards a webservice based architecture
(WCF, Silverlight, ASP.NET MVC).  In fact, they are actually touting
the word "open source" about a lot lately.  Python, Ruby, and
Javascript have been designated as MS blessed server side development
languages.

Personally, I love typeless, dynamic languages and think better
outside the rigid typed OO structure of Java and C#.  It does take
more discipline to code well in php, ruby, or python but I find it's
much easier to cement myself into outdated practices using a strongly
typed language. The java and C# libaries are wonderful and usually
really fast but sometimes not (I once used a java bitmap library that
try/caught exceptions on bit assignment).

I am always impressed with the speed of .NET web sites, however I have
never found one that has to handle the traffic of an Amazon, Yahoo or
Facebook.  Does anyone here know of a *BIG* .NET site?

Bob

I recall from years ago, Yahoo! was written in Java/ORACLE but what
about Amazon? Google is famous for liking Linux but I do not what
languages it uses.

..NET arrived years late (2002), and hence the large corporate sites
were already written (many from 1995).

 

[Logician]

If I am going online - I still have an aversion to using anything
Windows-based on the front-end exposed to the internet. Yeah you can
secure it but not as well as a lot of other platforms. .NET is Windows
only - so you are limited to the platform on which you can deploy it.
PHP basically gives you a fast and dirty/messy environment that can run
on any platform depending on your needs. If you only need a Windows box,
great, but should you need something bigger, you are pretty much stuck.
  With PHP, I can move it to a REAL computing environment generally
without making a single coding and/or configuration change.

As for DB2 - you obviously have a very limited view of what it does and
where it is deployed. I have seen DB2 in the corporate world all over
the place.

You obviously did not attend the corporate meetings as I did when it
was released in the late 1980's. Do you know much of the history of
DB2? It was hailed as the DBMS that would re-write all data storage
and would be linked into a new networking architecture driven by OS2.
No one ever talked about MS and IBM put millions into DB2 and its new
thinking. It lost its money and the returns were tiny compared to the
costs. IBM's share value dropped over 60% and the company went into
crisis. DB2 was revamped and re-deployed in client forms to try and
save on costs.

So maybe you need to learn some of the facts before telling me my view
is limited.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_IBM#1990.E2.80.931999:_IBM.27s_near_disaster_and_rebirth
"on January 19, 1993, IBM announced a US$8.10 billion loss for the
1992 financial year, which was then the largest single-year corporate
loss in U.S. history"

 

[Ben Voigt [C++ MVP]]

"Erwin Moller"

Logician schreef:

Me too.
Must have been some typo.

Congratulations, that's three people in a row who don't understand sarcasm.

 

[Ben Voigt [C++ MVP]]

mono-project.com

.Net on Windows, Linux and Mac

Is that ASP.NET though, which is what's being discussed?

 

[Ben Voigt [C++ MVP]]

I recall from years ago, Yahoo! was written in Java/ORACLE but what
about Amazon? Google is famous for liking Linux but I do not what
languages it uses.

I believe that Google is predominantly Java.

 

[Michael Austin]

You obviously did not attend the corporate meetings as I did when it
was released in the late 1980's. Do you know much of the history of
DB2? It was hailed as the DBMS that would re-write all data storage
and would be linked into a new networking architecture driven by OS2.
No one ever talked about MS and IBM put millions into DB2 and its new
thinking. It lost its money and the returns were tiny compared to the
costs. IBM's share value dropped over 60% and the company went into
crisis. DB2 was revamped and re-deployed in client forms to try and
save on costs.

So maybe you need to learn some of the facts before telling me my view
is limited.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_IBM#1990.E2.80.931999:_IBM.27s_near_disaster_and_rebirth
"on January 19, 1993, IBM announced a US$8.10 billion loss for the
1992 financial year, which was then the largest single-year corporate
loss in U.S. history"

You obviously have not attend any meetings in the last 25 years...

You are talking about something that occurred 25+ years ago... quoting
that wiki is ancient history. Time to update your knowledge base.

 

[Michael Austin]

You obviously have not attend any meetings in the last 25 years...

You are talking about something that occurred 25+ years ago... quoting
that wiki is ancient history. Time to update your knowledge base.

boy - my dates are a bit off this morning.. should have been 15-20 years.

 

[Michael B. Trausch]

I have developed in .NET and C# since 2004 and find it very good due
to the powerful IDE for .NET and the classes in C# (not as good as
Smalltalk though). I would use Java if the IDE's were better.

Whenever I ask for any commercial help from web design companies, no
one works with .NET and they all use PHP. I was at a meetup session
with "experts" on the Web, and when I mentioned .NET to one he pulled
a face and said PHP was the way to go.

I used to be a PHP programmer. In fact, PHP is the main reason I now
work in C#.

I have looked at PHP and found it awful: you cannot compile it, the
class structure is very limited, and the IDE environment is basic. I
cannot think of much good to say about it. The only positive is PHP is
quicker to use (execution time).

.NET is definitely slow in the same way DB2 was slow versus IMS when
DB2 was hailed as the big change. It made development quick but used
heavy CPU and never took off.

Check out Mono. You can write a classic style application server
(e.g., you don't _have_ to use ASP.NET) via FastCGI, or you can use
ASP.NET on top of Mono. Mono ASP.NET can run behind an Apache server
via a module that brings the CLR into Apache, or via FastCGI. (I'd go
for FastCGI, myself; it lets you do some pretty interesting things with
your application and decouples it from the Web server itself.)

Do not listen to anyone that tells you that a working .NET
implementation is unavailable on Linux systems. This is simply not
true. Mono 2.4 is an excellent free software implementation of the CLR
and base class library, and even ships with free implementations of
some of Microsoft's extensions to the standard.

Is there any popular view on this as I am interested to see what the
future may hold. I am now using .NET 3.5 and a lot of web hosting
companies do not even support .NET 3.5!

The solution to that, seriously? Generic FastCGI. You do not get
ASP.NET, then, but you _do_ get a great deal of flexibility. Or, you
can just use ASP.NET for the 2.0 version of the runtime and
libraries.

--- Mike

 

[Michael B. Trausch]

The vast majority of web servers run linux. .NET does not run on
linux.

http://www.mono-project.com/

 

[Michael B. Trausch]

Is that ASP.NET though, which is what's being discussed?

Mono is an implementation of the Common Language Runtime and the base
class library. Included in that (all you'd need to do is take a look
at the link) is support for ASP.NET. The current version of Mono (2.4)
supports executables targeted to the CLR versions 1.0, 1.1, 2.0, 3.0,
and 3.5. Also, you can now use ASP.NET MVC with it, since Microsoft
published that under the MS-PL (which is in fact a free software
license).

--- Mike

 

[Michael B. Trausch]

But that DOESN'T make C# a bad language of course.
(I am not experienced with C#, and I am aware that I also post in a
C# group. So let it be clear I don't attack C# in any way since I am
not authorative enough to comment on it.)

Just because the company is bad doesn't mean that it can produce
good---and even great---things.

I think that the CLR and C# both prove that Microsoft should have
remained a company whose primary focus was programming languages. If
they hadn't spent their time wanking around with Windows, they could
have come up with the first generation managed code environment all on
their own, and probably 10 or 20 years earlier than we got one. The
technology would likely be firmly polished by now across the board, and
Microsoft could have taken a very cross-platform stance years ago and
been a much better company for it. That's just one alternate way
things could have gone, but I think that we'd be better off as a world
if Microsoft would have stuck with programming languages and stayed
away from the operating system market, and was less involved in
application software snatching than they are today.

That's just my 2¢ though.

--- Mike