More Audio Distortion on Timeline

G

Guest

Hi, I have been perusing this site and the papajohn site this afternoon
trying to solve the problem which many of us seem to have with audio
distortion once clips are placed on the timeline. I have made a couple of
observations but not yet resolved this. I am not using WinDVD but was using
Cyberlink Power DVD which I have now uninstalled during the fault-finding.

1. Under 'clip properties' in the 'collections' window I notice that my
AVI-DV files are incorrectly being identified as 32kHz 16bit however, I have
confirmed that my camcorder is set to output 48kHz 16bit and when I look at
the properties in 'Mainconcept's MPEG encoder' they are correctly identified
as 48kHz 16bit.

2. When I initially play the clips in Windows Media Player 9 (by
double-clicking the file) it plays fine... if I then re-cue the clip it plays
back slow - as if it is playing a 48kHz file at 32kHz??

Do you think I have a problem with the DV capture (eg incorrect header info)
or something to do with the CODECS for play-back. I have tried a different
camcorder on my second system (albeit the same build of XP-pro) and am
getting the same results.

I'd be extremely greatful for any thoughts.
 
P

PapaJohn \(MVP\)

I just checked a captured file.... DV-AVI type I by MM2.1. Movie Maker
properties show it as 32khz 16bit.

My camcorder (Sony TRV80) manual says its recorded as 48 kHz 16bit

So far, I haven't found another way to cross-check the file on the computer
to compare the properties to what MM2.1 is saying.
--
PapaJohn

Movie Maker 2 - www.papajohn.org
Photo Story 2 - www.photostory.papajohn.org

..
 
P

PapaJohn \(MVP\)

PS... just did a test capture from the camcorder using MM1, which would be a
type II DV-AVI file.

Importing the clip into MM2.1 show it as 48 kHz, 16 bit.

It indicates my captured files are 48 kHz via MM1 and 32 kHz via MM2.1
captures.
--
PapaJohn

Movie Maker 2 - www.papajohn.org
Photo Story 2 - www.photostory.papajohn.org

..
 
G

Guest

Do these clips play OK on your timeline and export OK? (I am guessing they
do 'cos you're the GURU!) I probably need to get hold of someone elses good
DV-AVI file to see if I have a capture issue or if it is the
replay/re-encoding side.
 
P

PapaJohn \(MVP\)

Yes, they all play and export OK here.... but Movie Maker doesn't know
anything about GURUs or any other kind of person. It only knows the specific
computer system it's running on, which I think makes a difference.

Many users wrestle with audio issues and you bring up an interesting
point...
--
PapaJohn

Movie Maker 2 - www.papajohn.org
Photo Story 2 - www.photostory.papajohn.org

..
 
J

John Kelly

Hello there,

I understand it is normal practice in the domestic industry to use a 16bit wide
sample at 48 KHz with two channels.....if your camera can output a 32 bit data
stream at 32KHz then you may have a 4 channel audio ability....if, that would
probably be why there is confusion....I can imagine that quite a few packages
would not be able to correctly identify 4 channels...I can't find mention of
your camera make and model so cannot check any further.

--
Best Wishes.....John Kelly
www.the-kellys.org
www.the-kellys.co.uk
Just glad I don't live in Croydon, UK
\|||/
(o o)
----------ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------
All material gained from other sources is duly acknowledged. No Value is
obtained by publishing in any format other peoples work
 
P

PapaJohn \(MVP\)

You've got me testing, thinking and learning.... I found something out
tonight that I hadn't known. My DV-AVI files are being encoded by a
Panasonic DV encoder, not Microsoft's.

Even when I create a file in Premiere and have the settings to use the
Microsoft codec, the saved file shows that it's been done by the Panasonic
codec.
--
PapaJohn

Movie Maker 2 - www.papajohn.org
Photo Story 2 - www.photostory.papajohn.org

..
 
P

PapaJohn \(MVP\)

I take it back.... Premiere shows properties of the files as being the
Panasonic codec, but it says the same thing if I make the file on my desktop
which doesn't have the Panasonic codec.

I'm going back to studying it some more.
--
PapaJohn

Movie Maker 2 - www.papajohn.org
Photo Story 2 - www.photostory.papajohn.org

..
 
R

Rehan

Papajohn

I also found it in relation to another program which installed its own DLL
for the DV codec and registered it with the system. This resulted in MM and
other apps to start using it.

I was able to fix it by registrng the proper DLL back:

On Start->Run dialog, execute

regsvr32 %windir%\system32\qdv.dll
 
G

Guest

Hmmm.... this is taking a looong time to fathom. I am now thinking it is
something to do with the PCM sample rate conversion within my system rathar
than dodgy DV captures. I have done an experiment which completely excludes
MM2.1...

1. I captured a live DV stream from my camcorder (48kHz 16bit)
2. I extracted the audio WAV from this file using virtual dub.
3. Using 'Sound Recorder' (I'm high-tech me!) I replayed the file and it
sounded fine
4. I used 'Sound Recorder' to transcode the file to 44.1kHz 16bit and the
resultant file has the high-pitch whistle and audio distortion as it does on
the MM2.1 timeline. (I wonder if I can assume that the WMM timeline works at
44.1kHz?)

I reckon that if I can fix sample-rate conversion within my system I will be
home and dry. I see that the CODEC that handles this is the 'Microsoft PCM
Converter' (mine is version 5.00) - if I disable this I can no longer hear
the audio on the timeline in WMM2.1, nor can I transcode files in 'Sound
Recorder' - does anyone know of an update to this or an alternative CODEC
that can take over the PCM audio?

Best regards.
 
J

John Kelly

Hello there,

If there "is" an enforced capability in Movie Maker regarding audio I would
think its going to be the one that moce DV cameras output....16 bit at 48KHz.

If you want to change these properties can I suggest you use Audacity. Its a
quite advanced program and free.....get the link from my "Great Links" section
of my site...the program very likely does more than you will ever need and is
highly regarded.

--
Best Wishes.....John Kelly
www.the-kellys.org
www.the-kellys.co.uk
Just glad I don't live in Croydon, UK
\|||/
(o o)
----------ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------
All material gained from other sources is duly acknowledged. No Value is
obtained by publishing in any format other peoples work
 
G

Guest

Sorry, I hadn't mentioned my camcorder is a Canon XM2 which I understand will
do 12bit 32kHz sound (eeech) but I am using 16bit 48kHz. As I just mentioned
in reply to PapaJohn I am now investigating sample rate conversion within my
system. I have just created a file within ProTools at 16bit 48kHz and that
plays fine in preview (collections) but is distorted once it is dumped on the
timeline so I'm looking to fix/replace the 'Microsoft PCM Converter'

Cheers.
 
J

John Kelly

Hello there,

OK. 12bit audio is known to cause very undesirable "sound effects"

--
Best Wishes.....John Kelly
www.the-kellys.org
www.the-kellys.co.uk
Just glad I don't live in Croydon, UK
\|||/
(o o)
----------ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------
All material gained from other sources is duly acknowledged. No Value is
obtained by publishing in any format other peoples work
 
G

Guest

Hello again - that does seem logical but I'm not 100% sure it's the case.
If I drop an original 16bit 44.1kHz WAV file onto the timeline it sounds the
same when you play the timeline as it does in 'collections', however, the
16bit 48kHz ones get messed-up on my system. It seems that the 'Microsoft
PCM Converter' is making a bad job of the conversion. I downloaded Audacity
as you suggested and this certainly makes a much better job of the
conversions, however, it does not appear to do 'live' PCM conversions (in
place of the Microsoft built-in one) so can't really help me.

As an aside, I am wondering if this problem affects more users than is
apparent. It is fairly subtle HF distortion and wouldn't be noticeable with
the majority of camcorder footage. We are shooting in a small studio with a
Sony ECM-77B mic so it really highlights the problem when you replay on
decent monitoring. I guess that capturing 48kHz audio in DV footage is the
first time we (and the majority of users) have dealt with linear audio files
at this sampling rate at home, so maybe an improved 'Microsoft PCM Converter'
is due!

Best regards.
 
J

John Kelly

Hello there,

Yes, I understand where you are coming from. dropping 44.1 on audio track works
great for me (see latest video clip called "Flowers" on my web site and my DV
is 48KHz and that sounds fine too....

Usually audio problems of this type revolve around using 12bit audio in the
camera. Movie Maker does a back flip :)

I use a seperate microphone when I can (most recent was in a Church) because
the built in Mic becomes over sensitive when there is little or no background
noise...

This TinyURL http://tinyurl.com/6ud3e has some background info on the Microsoft
PCM Converter that may be of interest to you...its on the Intel web site and
has some extra links on the page. I can't see a date telling how old the
document is, but the advice given seems sound enough.
Hope it helps
--
Best Wishes.....John Kelly
www.the-kellys.org
www.the-kellys.co.uk
Just glad I don't live in Croydon, UK
\|||/
(o o)
----------ooO-(_)-Ooo-------------
All material gained from other sources is duly acknowledged. No Value is
obtained by publishing in any format other peoples work
 
S

SMDavenport

I can assure you that you are not the only one experiencing this
problem. I've been trying to resolve this for over a year with no
luck. I capture from a Sony TRV740 with the audio set to 16-bit.
Whether I'm capturing newly-recorded digital video or playing back old
Hi-8 tapes using the camera's ability to digitize it on-the-fly, I
still get 32khz audio in MovieMaker 2.1. The clips sound fine until I
drop them into the timeline.

I'm starting to wonder if my camcorder is really putting out 48khz
audio or not. The manual doesn't say -- it only says 12-bit or 16-bit,
not 32khz or 48khz.

I was assuming that if I could get the audio captured at 48khz, WMM
would not cause the audio distortion which I attributed to the
upsampling from 32khz to 48khz.

My strategy has been to capture with WMM as AVI, edit in the timeline
-- fades, effects, etc. and export to AVI. Then encode with TmpgEnc
and author with TmpgEnc DVD-Author. This works great except for the
audio distortion in the WMM timeline.

I'll be following this thread very closely. So far I don't see a
solution.

Steve Davenport
 
S

SMDavenport

My previous thinking was that the camcorder was somehow putting out
the 32khz audio. That appears not to be the case.

The same test AVI that MovieMaker shows as being 32khz is reported as
48khz by TmpgEnc. So I feel better that the camcorder is doing its job
right and sending through the Firewire an audio stream at 48khz.

So the problem is definitely with MovieMaker. If I take the test AVI
that MovieMaker reports as being 32khz and drop it in the timeline,
save it as a new AVI, MovieMaker now shows that AVI with 48khz audio
in the "Collection". But this AVI has the metallic artifacts. So it
seems that MM2 is trying to upsample the audio to 48khz when it
shouldn't.

Is this a codec problem or just a problem with MM2.

PapaJohn or SDI, have you run any further tests? Any new theories?

Regards,

Steve Davenport
 
G

Guest

Hi,

I’m kind of embarrassed to say that I’ve given up for the time being. It
was taking a heck of a lot of time and I figured I’d be better off biting the
bullet and trying a different package – Ulead’s Video Studio 7 came with my
firewire card and seems OK for simple edits.

IMHO, MM seems to be a fairly small application in itself and relies on OS
elements a great deal. I am fairly certain that my problems were linked to
'Microsoft PCM Converter' and possibly it’s relationship with the sound
system on my PC. It may be of use to experiment with a wider variety of
sound hardware. I tried the on-board SoundMax hardware as well as a couple
of external USB devices. Perhaps these operate internally at 44.1kHz and
always require software transcoding whereas a more expensive board may handle
a 48kHz stream without a transcoding requirement. This could be a reason
that it only affects certain users. Maybe it would be of use to keep a
record of the sound hardware in the systems that suffer to investigate this
theory.

For starters, my Video PC uses the Asus P4S800-MX Motherboard’s on-board
SoundMAX Cadenza utilising Analog Devices AD1888 6-channel audio CODEC (phew!)

I’ll keep checking back to see how things move along.

Best regards.
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Similar Threads

Audio timeline issue 3
No Sound (Audio) in Timeline Preview 1
Audio problem when I drop a clip into the timeline 3
Audio plays at half speed in timeline 5
Sound distortion in storyboard/timeline 1
Audio pitch is wrong when played in timeline 3
Overlaying Audio clips on Timeline 1
clip audio won't play 2

Top