Minimize should mean minimize

[Guest]

While I like Outlook 2003's "Hide when minimized" option in the tray, I think
clicking X close should not totally close down Outlook but instead leave it
in the tray. Likewise, minimizing should just minimize it normally (to the
taskbar, not the tray).

Obviously, the naming of the option should change.... something like "Keep
Outlook Loaded" or "Allow Outlook to work in the background" (which is the
terminology Windows Messenger uses).

This is, after all, the way EVERYTHING else in the "tray" works. Outlook
goes against the grain of this common convention.

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[Ben M. Schorr - MVP]

While I like Outlook 2003's "Hide when minimized" option in the tray, I
think
clicking X close should not totally close down Outlook but instead leave
it
in the tray. Likewise, minimizing should just minimize it normally (to the
taskbar, not the tray).

If clicking "X" only hides Outlook then how would you close it?

Aloha,

-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, OneNote-MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
Microsoft Outlook FAQ: http://www.factplace.com/outlook.htm

**I apologize but I am unable to respond to direct requests for assistance.
Please post questions and replies here in the newsgroup. Mahalo!

 

[CMM]

If clicking "X" only hides Outlook then how would you close it?
Ben M. Schorr, OneNote-MVP

Well, how do you close every other thing in the tray that allows itself to
be closed?
You right-click on the app's trayicon and choose "Exit." This is pretty
standard, historically common, and obvious, no?

 

[Brian Tillman]

Well, how do you close every other thing in the tray that allows
itself to be closed?
You right-click on the app's trayicon and choose "Exit." This is
pretty standard, historically common, and obvious, no?

Those standards apply only to aplpications defined as services. Outlook
cannot be a service, so its buttons work like any other non-service
application, which means the X means close.

 

[CMM]

Those standards apply only to aplpications defined as services. Outlook
cannot be a service, so its buttons work like any other non-service
application, which means the X means close.

If you sat down to think about this response from a normal user's point of
view you'd realize it makes absolutely no sense. You'd have to explain what
a "service" is... which a normal office user couldn't care less about.
Besides, if Outlook (2003!) *isn't* a so-called "service" (I know
technically it isn't in the OS sense) why in God's name does it put an icon
in the tray to begin with? Think about it.

And, regardless, you're post is 100% wrong in any case. Half of the icons in
my tray don't run as "Services." Windows Messenger doesn't, my WiFi stack
runs as a normal app and not a "service," my SQL Service Manager runs as a
normal app not a "service." (I could go on and on).Yet ALL follow the same
CONVENTION that has dated back since forever.

 

[Ben M. Schorr - MVP]

Well, how do you close every other thing in the tray that allows itself to
be closed?
You right-click on the app's trayicon and choose "Exit." This is pretty
standard, historically common, and obvious, no?

Not really, no. In fact I'd bet most average users don't bother ever
exiting those things in the tray because it's not terribly obvious that you
would have to do it that way.

Hide When Minimized works very well, and accomplishes what you seem to want.
I don't see any real need to change it.

Aloha,

-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, OneNote-MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
Microsoft Outlook FAQ: http://www.factplace.com/outlook.htm

**I apologize but I am unable to respond to direct requests for assistance.
Please post questions and replies here in the newsgroup. Mahalo!

 

[Ben M. Schorr - MVP]

And, regardless, you're post is 100% wrong in any case. Half of the icons
in my tray don't run as "Services." Windows Messenger doesn't, my WiFi
stack runs as a normal app and not a "service," my SQL Service Manager
runs as a normal app not a "service." (I could go on and on).Yet ALL
follow the same CONVENTION that has dated back since forever.

You have a fairly narrow definition of "forever" or maybe I'm just too old.
In any event how often do you exit Windows Messenger, your WiFi stack or
SQL Server Manager?

I'd be willing to wager that most users never exit any of those apps --
meaning that right-clicking their icon and choosing "exit" isn't an
especially common way to exit applications.

Aloha,

-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, OneNote-MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
Microsoft Outlook FAQ: http://www.factplace.com/outlook.htm

**I apologize but I am unable to respond to direct requests for assistance.
Please post questions and replies here in the newsgroup. Mahalo!

 

[CMM]

You have a fairly narrow definition of "forever" or maybe I'm just too
old. In any event how often do you exit Windows Messenger, your WiFi
stack or SQL Server Manager?

Well, how often do you exit Outlook?
If you exit it often, you are not a typical corporate user.

I'd be willing to wager that most users never exit any of those apps --
meaning that right-clicking their icon and choosing "exit" isn't an
especially common way to exit applications.

And minimizing "isn't an especially common" way to put an app in the tray
either.
However, the behavior of apps that I described is pretty common.

I don't know about you, but I have never thought of Outlook as an app that I
open and close all the time like a word processer or a spreadsheet or an
image editor. Do you? No, it's a "management" tool that most users open as
soon as they get into the office and never close throughtout the day. If you
do, you're aren't typical. Take a walk around any busy corporate offices in
New York City and you'd see what I mean.

 

[Russ Valentine [MVP-Outlook]]

The ability to minimize to the systray was in response to user requests.

 

[CMM]

The ability to minimize to the systray was in response to user requests.
--

No doubt! But all they did was make accessible a hidden feature that Outlook
has had for some time (via the regsistry). They did no work. So don't give
them any undeserved credit.

People have been requesting this feature since Outlook 97 and even before
that when Outlook was called "Microsoft Exchange." But Outlook's development
team has never really been known for creating innovative UI's. In fact, of
Outlook 2000 and 2002, PC Mag said "featuring a menu system only a
programmer would love."

It still persists to this day. MVP apologists notwithstanding.

 

[CMM]

Not really, no. In fact I'd bet most average users don't bother ever
exiting those things in the tray because it's not terribly obvious that
you would have to do it that way.

Most users in a corporate environment don't bother closing Outlook either.

In fact, I could argue that when Outlook 2003 came out, most people were
confused by the tray icon. "What's the point of that icon? Why's it taking
up room on my tray? Oh, wait, maybe it works like that IM program I use and
I can close Outlook and still receive e-mail notificat.. oh no wait. It
doesn't. Darn."

Most people won't even use the "Hide When Minimize" feature. Why? It's
incredibly disconcerting!!! Usually when you minimize a program you, um,
want it minimized... not hidden.

Give regular users a little more credit. Most programs nowadays that sit in
the tray indicate to the user how to access the program the first time the
user closes their main window (Windows Messenger does this brilliantly...
animating its minimize to the tray). And, given where Outlook's 2003's
ghostly "New Message" balloon appears... I think most user's would "get it."

Hide When Minimized works very well, and accomplishes what you seem to
want. I don't see any real need to change it.

OL2003's Hide When Minimized does accomplish what I want. I just think it
should work in the STANDARD way. Yes, I click the Close button all the
time... always by accident.

 

[Ben M. Schorr - MVP]

Well, how often do you exit Outlook?
If you exit it often, you are not a typical corporate user.

The typical corporate user exits it 1-2 times a day.

And minimizing "isn't an especially common" way to put an app in the tray
either.

Which is why it's not the default for Outlook. They've added the option to
minimize to the tray for those users who wish to do it. For most users,
Outlook minimizes the way every almost every other app does.

Aloha,

-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, OneNote-MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
Microsoft Outlook FAQ: http://www.factplace.com/outlook.htm

**I apologize but I am unable to respond to direct requests for assistance.
Please post questions and replies here in the newsgroup. Mahalo!

 

[Ben M. Schorr - MVP]

No doubt! But all they did was make accessible a hidden feature that
Outlook has had for some time (via the regsistry). They did no work. So
don't give them any undeserved credit.

Is that what you're all upset about?

People have been requesting this feature since Outlook 97 and even before
that when Outlook was called "Microsoft Exchange."

And they have it.

But Outlook's development team has never really been known for creating
innovative UI's. In fact, of Outlook 2000 and 2002, PC Mag said "featuring
a menu system only a programmer would love."

What did PC Mag say about DOS 6.0? (as long as we're going to discuss old
products)

It still persists to this day. MVP apologists notwithstanding.

http://www.novell.com/products/groupwise/

Aloha,

-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, OneNote-MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
Microsoft Outlook FAQ: http://www.factplace.com/outlook.htm

**I apologize but I am unable to respond to direct requests for assistance.
Please post questions and replies here in the newsgroup. Mahalo!

 

[Ben M. Schorr - MVP]

Most users in a corporate environment don't bother closing Outlook either.

Sure they do, once or twice a day. More often if the close X confuses them.

In fact, I could argue that when Outlook 2003 came out, most people were
confused by the tray icon. "What's the point of that icon? Why's it taking
up room on my tray? Oh, wait, maybe it works like that IM program I use
and I can close Outlook and still receive e-mail notificat.. oh no wait.
It doesn't. Darn."

You could argue that, but my experience has been different. And I've
supported various versions of Outlook (including 2003) for thousands of
users.

Most people won't even use the "Hide When Minimize" feature. Why? It's
incredibly disconcerting!!! Usually when you minimize a program you, um,
want it minimized... not hidden.

That's probably why it's turned off by default.

OL2003's Hide When Minimized does accomplish what I want.
Great!

I just think it should work in the STANDARD way. Yes, I click the Close
button all the time... always by accident.

Outlook does work in the standard way. The X button at the top right corner
of the application closes the application. Just like pretty much every
other Windows application.

It doesn't make sense to me that because you can't remember not to click the
Close button you think we should disable the Close button? I'm sorry but in
our help desk system this would be classified as a training issue; not a
software bug. I don't see the logic in making it harder for everybody to
close the program because a tiny minority of users get confused by the
standard Windows close button.

Aloha,

-Ben-
Ben M. Schorr, OneNote-MVP
Roland Schorr & Tower
http://www.rolandschorr.com
Microsoft Outlook FAQ: http://www.factplace.com/outlook.htm

**I apologize but I am unable to respond to direct requests for assistance.
Please post questions and replies here in the newsgroup. Mahalo!

 

[CMM]

Outlook does work in the standard way. The X button at the top right

corner of the application closes the application. Just like pretty much
every other Windows application.

When Outlook 2003 is set to be accessed via the tray, it does not work in
the standard way that all other apps do it. You can say it a million times
and it's still not true.

 

[Brian Tillman]

If you sat down to think about this response from a normal user's
point of view you'd realize it makes absolutely no sense.

I'm a normal user and it makes send to me, so your assertion is without
merit.

You'd have
to explain what a "service" is... which a normal office user couldn't
care less about.

They should.

Besides, if Outlook (2003!) *isn't* a so-called
"service" (I know technically it isn't in the OS sense) why in God's
name does it put an icon in the tray to begin with? Think about it.

Because enough people asked for that feature that Microsoft implemented it.
Seems reasonable to me.

And, regardless, you're post is 100% wrong in any case. Half of the
icons in my tray don't run as "Services." Windows Messenger doesn't,

my WiFi stack runs as a normal app and not a "service," my SQL
Service Manager runs as a normal app not a "service." (I could go on
and on).Yet ALL follow the same CONVENTION that has dated back since
forever.

So, those application have chosen to violate an even longer-standing
standard (X=close). So what? Are they Microsoft applications? With only a
few exceptions, Microsoft products consistently close when pressing the X
button. What other applications do is beyond the purvue of Microsoft and
they can implement any practice they want. It doesn't make them "standard".

 

[Brian Tillman]

Well, how often do you exit Outlook?
If you exit it often, you are not a typical corporate user.

I'd disagree with this. Many (the typical?) corporate users also employ
PSTs which cannot be reliably backed up unless they're closed and they
aren't closed when Outlook is running.

I don't know about you, but I have never thought of Outlook as an app
that I open and close all the time like a word processer or a
spreadsheet or an image editor. Do you? No, it's a "management" tool
that most users open as soon as they get into the office and never
close throughtout the day.

There's a far cry between close "throughout the day" and "often". I think
exiting every day IS often. While I have no way to measure (and your final
statement "Take a walk around any busy corporate offices in New York City"
is unprovable by you since I'd wager my next paycheck you haven't visited
ALL the businesses in New York City. It would only take ONE exception to
make your assertion false), I'd say many businesses do have a policy of
closing Outlook at the end of the day. Any intelligent IT person
responsible for backups would make that a requirement.

 

[Brian Tillman]

Most users in a corporate environment don't bother closing Outlook
either.

Tell me how many corporate users you've surveyed to enable you to make this
assertion. No matter how many that is, it's still anecdotal evidence which
proces nothing.

Most people won't even use the "Hide When Minimize" feature. Why? It's
incredibly disconcerting!!! Usually when you minimize a program you,
um, want it minimized... not hidden.

But you LIKE it when Windows Messgenger or your little MP3 player does the
same thing? "A foolish inconsistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

OL2003's Hide When Minimized does accomplish what I want. I just
think it should work in the STANDARD way. Yes, I click the Close
button all the time... always by accident.

By whose standards?

 

[Brian Tillman]

I'm a normal user and it makes send to me,

I meant "sense". Drat.

 

[CMM]

It would only take ONE exception to make your assertion false), I'd say

many businesses do have a policy of closing Outlook at the end of the day.
Any intelligent IT person responsible for backups would make that a
requirement.

At end of day, you're supposed to log off. So of course Outlook is going to
close. That's not what I'm talking about. You folks are missing the point.