Microsoft doesn't want you to use VB .Net

  • Thread starter Thread starter Homer J Simpson
  • Start date Start date
Agreed. I am beyond frustrated by the bugs and shortcomings I've
encountered so far. I can only imagine what problems lie ahead.

And contrary to Brad's simplistic, broad assertion, I for one am a true VB
and VB.NET afficianado-- I'm just disappointed in what I've experienced so
far with VB.NET, particularly on ASP.NET pages. It's not ready for prime
time. Too many crucial features are missing or immature. The pathetic
Clipboard limitations are a prime example. I can't even copy an html table
to the Clipboard for crying out loud! That's just unacceptable IMO, and I
feel Homer's pain.

Randall Arnold
 
Here's an example: try using the Starter Kits in Visual Web developer 2005.
Good luck!

Randall Arnold
 
Flawlessly????

Congratulations: you may be the only person to be able to say that. I sure
can't.

Randall Arnold
 
OH geez, what a huge disappointment, its that Microsoft for you, right?
Even though the IDE works flawlessly and is the best there is? the giant
problem you have is a registration page...

yeah...sure, whatever

Which Open Source program are you trying to promote here?
Click to expand...

Ignoring your obvious trolling, what I am saying is that VB6 worked fine. It
was easy to use and provided functional results. Sure, there were things
about it that could have been better, but when you can put a useful program
together in less than 30 minutes you have something of value.

I just picked up a copy of "Visual Basic .Net Step by Step". Over 600 pages
and at the end you can spin three digits and see a picture if one is a 7.
You can access a database - but not easily. You can write code for a web
page - that only works with IE. Yep, that's impressive.

Object orientation is a solution looking for a problem. In all of the code I
have written in over 30 years I've never once thought, "Wow, if only this
module could inherit from that module, or if I had yet another way to limit
the scope of variables (encapsulation)."

Give me VB7 and a simple way to design and build help files. VB .Net may
look better - but it isn't better.
 
Here's an example: try using the Starter Kits in Visual Web developer
2005.
Click to expand...

I tried "Amazon-Enabled Movie Collection Starter Kit". Didn't work. I poked
around in the code and hacked it to work, but it's god awful complicated for
what it does. The others were odd and uninteresting.
 
Randall,
The pathetic Clipboard limitations are a prime example. I can't even copy
an html table to the Clipboard for crying out loud! That's just
unacceptable IMO, and I feel Homer's pain.
Click to expand...
That has nothing to do with Net. Have a look at my explanation about this in
the thread of your problem.

The way you can use the clipboard in not Web applications is outstanding in
Net.

Cor
 
Homer,

For most of us is VB6 is more than 3 years ago.

We have seen all those messages you make now done by many people.
Almost everyone who had written that was making afterwards messages as.

"I had a lot to say about VB.Net. Now they will have to pull me at my hairs
screaming back to VB6 if that is needed?

Cor
 
Object orientation is a solution looking for a problem. In all of the code I
have written in over 30 years I've never once thought, "Wow, if only this
module could inherit from that module, or if I had yet another way to limit
the scope of variables (encapsulation)."
Click to expand...

If you are thinking about silly textbook examples OO, maybe.

But when (if) you move from VB6 to .Net and find that you can (e.g.)
just add
those properties and methods to the standard TextBox control you
always wanted, you'll eventually start using OO principles more and
more - to the point where VB6 will seem like a toy and you would
rather switch career than go back.

OO practices are used throughout the framework itself.

If you haven't been exposed to OO principles in your 30 years of
coding (by writing Java or C++ or whatever), it might take a while
to get it. If you have, but still don't get it, you probably never
will. Have you thought about retirement?
Give me VB7 and a simple way to design and build help files. VB .Net may
look better - but it isn't better.
Click to expand...

I felt the same way. I could do anything I wanted in VB6, but after
one month with .Net, I was sold.

Now I say: Bury Classic VB. Let's have none of this compatibility
crap. Force people to move on.

But not to worry: There will still be a need for VB6 programmers for
years to come. Same as there is still a need for COBOL programmers.
Those old systems still need to be maintained until they can be
replaced.

/JB

PS: Just fanning the flames. Heh ... this thread is going to live for
a while. And when it dies, someone will eventually start a similar
one.
 
"I had a lot to say about VB.Net. Now they will have to pull me at my hairs
screaming back to VB6 if that is needed?
Click to expand...

I just read this article:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html

and if you go back in the archive, you'll find this one:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html

which ends on this note:

"And while these great tools, like modern OO forms-based languages,
let us get a lot of work done incredibly quickly, suddenly one day we
need to figure out a problem where the abstraction leaked, and it
takes 2 weeks. And when you need to hire a programmer to do mostly VB
programming, it's not good enough to hire a VB programmer, because
they will get completely stuck in tar every time the VB abstraction
leaks."

I agree. It is very useful to know what is going on under the covers
so one can work around limitations of the abstraction. Served me well
to know more than VB6 when I was doing VB6. Serves me well to
know more than VB.Net now that I am doing VB.Net. But in this case,
"more" does not mean VB6 - it still means what I did besides VB6.

The only use I have of my knowledge of VB6 is when I need to
port old VB6 code to VB.Net.

Programming in VB.Net gives me access to the enormous .Net
framework, meaning I have to write less plumbing myself. It also
gives me access to data types and operations I was missing in
VB6 when doing "low-level" work. So VB.Net, to me, is an expansion
of capabilities in both directions. I am not implying that VB6 is a
Turing machine. Just that it can sometimes be harder to do something
in VB6 than would be the case in .Net.

Note: This, of course, is provided that the one doing the something
is new to both languages or new to the aspects of the languages
required to do the job; The one who knows VB6 like the back of his
hand can run rings around a programmer who is new to VB.Net, but
take two equally experienced programmers and there is just no
competition.

/JB
 
Not much to do with VB. The issue is much broader and extends to general
"philosophy"/trend and poor practices seen not just in one version of one
product, not even within one of MS Divisions, it's over-all problem of big
company that does not have enough competition to give a ... (you know what).

Over past few years I started regretting that I focused on MS technologies
(I was totally emerged in it and every new thing was a great deal of
excitement for me... but that apparently is a "past" as my disgust with some
of MS practices keeps growing and growing...).

Which is too bad. This largest, most financially "potent" corporation could
really re-focus and channel their resources in more positive directions....

And after all we have to remember: this is all about money. Only the
products that generate substantial profit are always in focus.
 
I want to know if people believe this. The "vb.net is terrible" kind of
stuff. It makes my hiring task much easier. Or the vb6 is better than
dotnet and OO is so difficult I cannot cope, but Ive been coding for 120
years and was the founder of the "B" programming language..

Yep... old B programming language Frisbee they used to call me. One day
they had a team of 50 programmers who couldnt figure out a task, took em 3
weeks but I went in there and in 10 minutes had the computer working just as
smooth as silk. Got a call from the United States president himself wantin
to thank me just as sure as youre listenin to me talk now...

Kind of reminds me of the time I designed a new rocket engine for NASA. Old
rocket propulsion Frisbee they used to call me. Why did you know that I
single handedly.....
 
If you haven't been exposed to OO principles in your 30 years of
coding (by writing Java or C++ or whatever), it might take a while
to get it. If you have, but still don't get it, you probably never
will. Have you thought about retirement?
Click to expand...

Maybe I'll go back to teaching computer science.
 
Yeah, sure that would be a positive thing to try. Now class, Microsoft
vb.net is confusing and it doesnt work. You probably wont be able to figure
out example 1.5 in the book, anyone? you did? everyone figured it out? show
me... okay class, ummm class dismissed.
 
Yeah, but comments regarding what exactly? Examples would certainly help.
;-)
Click to expand...

I downloaded "Microsoft Visual Basic 2005 Express Edition - Build a Program
Now!.pdf"

Throughout this book there are many links to websites with more
information - except they aren't links and you can't click on them. So OK,
I'll cut and paste the link text into the browser - except the whole book
has been created in some perverse version of Unicode and you can't cut and
paste it. And the same applies to the code samples in the book. Come on, who
thought this was a good idea? What was the point?

YAB (Yet Another Bug)
 
Brad Rogers said:
Yeah, sure that would be a positive thing to try. Now class, Microsoft
vb.net is confusing and it doesnt work. You probably wont be able to
figure
out example 1.5 in the book, anyone? you did? everyone figured it out?
show
me... okay class, ummm class dismissed.
Click to expand...

I've taught C as a first programming language in 4 days, start to finish.
And yes, I did cover pointers and pointers to functions. I've taught all
aspects of Unix and shell script programming. I've successfully taught under
terrible conditions - like no working computers.

But YOU can't seem to comprehend the difference between the product and the
delivery. I still don't know if VBNet is any good because at every turn I am
hampered by Microsoft's lousy efforts to support the transition. It's like
having a mechanic work on your car who is great - but he scratches up the
body and leaves greasy stains on the upholstery and returns the car with no
gas and a flat battery.
 
I do understand product vs delivery. Thats why I stopped trying to assist
with technical aspects, because youre complaining about the 'delivery', but
I have yet to actually see the same problem. vb.net is complex, its massive
and its hard to understand.

Interesting analogy to the mechanic, but I havent experienced that problem,
and used vb.net since 2002. Some details are sketchy but they fix them. It
appears vb.net is one of the greatest accomplishments in Microsoft history.



I've taught C as a first programming language in 4 days, start to finish.
And yes, I did cover pointers and pointers to functions. I've taught all
aspects of Unix and shell script programming. I've successfully taught under
terrible conditions - like no working computers.

But YOU can't seem to comprehend the difference between the product and the
delivery. I still don't know if VBNet is any good because at every turn I am
hampered by Microsoft's lousy efforts to support the transition. It's like
having a mechanic work on your car who is great - but he scratches up the
body and leaves greasy stains on the upholstery and returns the car with no
gas and a flat battery.
Click to expand...

int main (void) {
int x = 3;
int y = 2;

y = x++ + x++;

printf("the answer is: ", y);

return 0;
}

what is y?
 
"It appears vb.net is one of the greatest accomplishments in Microsoft
history"

VB.net on *winforms* is great. Yeah, I felt like Homer at first: the
transition from vb6 to VB.Net 2005 was painful. VERY painful. But I was
determined to get it and when the light clicked, man... from that point on
it all just flowed. And I began to hate dealing with legacy VB6 code.

But then I tried to use VB.Net on asp.net web pages. And the pain began
anew... only thanks to Microsoft's paranoia of the internet also extending
to the intranet, I don't think THIS pain is going to ease. It's just gonna
get worse.

Greatest accomplishment? Sure-- with caveats.

Randall Arnold
 
It has EVERYTHING to do with .net!

I never encountered this clipboard prejudice against objects until I tried
moving the VB6 app in question to asp.net. I am told it's a security issue.
Security on an INTRANET app??? Restricting me from copying objects to the
clipboard in my own corporate environ??? Now just who is that supposed to
protect against?

Pure paranoia. And no, if I can't copy objects, it's NOT outstanding Cor,
sorry.

Randall Arnold
 
It has EVERYTHING to do with .net!

I never encountered this clipboard prejudice against objects until I tried
moving the VB6 app in question to asp.net. I am told it's a security
issue. Security on an INTRANET app??? Restricting me from copying objects
to the clipboard in my own corporate environ??? Now just who is that
supposed to protect against?

Pure paranoia. And no, if I can't copy objects, it's NOT outstanding Cor,
sorry.
Click to expand...

Security is an excuse that has worked well for the current US
administration. You can translate it as, "We just don't wanna"!
 
Back
Top